From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #13 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Tues, 12 Jan 1999 Vol 06 : Num 013 In this issue: eskrima: Re- Padded sticks/ katchas katch kan eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #12 eskrima: re Wuzu quan enquiry Re: eskrima: Re- Padded sticks/ katchas katch kan eskrima: atlatl eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #11 eskrima: Kenpo Stick - Revisited eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1000 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rocky Pasiwk Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:11:06 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Re- Padded sticks/ katchas katch kan As far as padded sticks I have always found that they tend to lead to many bad habits, as does body armour and all that other stuff, best to suck it up and go for broke ( use the real stuff) it only hurts for a while, and you don't need to do it everyday any ways, more than twice a month unless training for a fight is more than enough. Or try using a little padding on your rattan. Second point here. I live in Michigan , and in Michigan we are literaturely challenged when it comes to martial arts. I can never find anything unless its absolutely main stream, i.e Bruce Lee or TKD or the such. I am looking for book on Katchas Katch Kan, written in the early 1900's by I believe Batch Williams ( AKA. the Butcher of Mortals ) I could be wrong on the name its third hand info, but at any rate anything on the art would be great, I am trying to do an article for one of the Magazines. Maybe one of you west coasters would be able to find something for me. Also I need to get in touch with Judo Gene Labell and would appreciate any help in the correspondence. ------------------------------ From: "Carl Fung" Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:06:33 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #12 >I have some experience in other milieus with various padded practice weapons. >I have been taught that pvc-style padded weapons are only suitable for >touch-style combat (also known as 'boffer weapon combat'). At high >speeds and impacts, ordinary PVC can shatter, and as the length of the >PVC increases to largo mano ranges, it begins to flex; multiplying force >unpredictably. It also fragments, with sharp edges. Actually, Rattan to my knowledge is a root not a stick. Rattan is a training tool. The "lighter" rattan stick will cause less damage than a "heavy" padded rattan stick IMHO. Try it yourself and decide what hurts more. Decide what is easier to knock your buddy out with while he has a helmet on. (Take the weight in door #2).The same stick wrapped can actually deliever more impact due to weight. then you get the MaryLou brusies for a while action. The rattan leaves smaller damage rather than large collarteral damage. Basically the real difference is a hardwood stick vs. Rattan...now that separated the men from the boys. Yes there is more dense vs. less dense rattan and thinner and fatter but basically it is a training tool and it is up to the operator to decide how hard he will go. If you take all the pain out of training you might as well be watching football. Personally, in the adrenal state the sting of a whiffle bat is almost worse than the thunk of a rattan stick. Even fighting with rattan is fake. In all of time FMA practitioners and others have proved that in that training partners come back to train tomorrow. Just about anyone can survive the first rattan hit to get off their second shot but how many can survive that hardwood hit? How many would want to shield the #1 with thier forearm to return there own #1. While not ideal we have all done that either intensionally or unintentionally. I stay stick with the rattan so you don't move too far from the art. carl ------------------------------ From: "JYCHOW.AU.ORACLE.COM" Date: 12 Jan 99 16:15:35 +1100 Subject: eskrima: re Wuzu quan enquiry This is known As Wu Chu Chuan or in Hokkien dialet Go Cho (Go Chu). It is the direct ancestor of Okinawan GoJu. Came from the Fukkien/Hokkien Province which is off the coast from Taiwan and Okinawa. Its emphasis is half soft, half hard (p'an nyon, p'an ngang). To contact, try the Bakbakan group (http://www.bakbakan.com/) since Master Alex Co from the Beng Kiam group in Manila is very close to Bakbakan. Cheers! John Chow Australia ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:53:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: eskrima: Re- Padded sticks/ katchas katch kan > something for me. Also I need to get in touch with Judo Gene Labell and > would appreciate any help in the correspondence. Judo Gene's org has a website, but the URL escapes me right now. Perhaps someone else recalls or maybe check your favorite search engine. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:56:13 -0800 Subject: eskrima: atlatl Yip: A quickie on the dangers of padded sticks: Also be aware of padding around something firm (pvc, slender rattan, fiberglass rod, etc) where the grip includes the padding-- i.e. the something firm can go flying right out the end of the padding with most serious force even though there is some sort of cap over the tip. Back in the 80s at the Inosanto Academy on Glencoe Ave someone brought some new padded sticks for us to play with and, as noted in other posts boys will be boys. The play got exuberant and someone really hummed one and the rod inside went flying like an arrow and shattered a mirror. Bummer, but better than a face or eye. Woof, Crafty ------------------------------ From: Jeff Allen Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 07:36:38 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #11 Hi guys, I wanted to forward the following from Hock Hockheim as a follow-up to the recent discussions. If you would like to contact Hock here's his address: HockHoch@aol.com. Keep training, Jeff Allen (jallen@unt.edu) The cancer grip is when the thumb and the ball of the thumb is way up and not touching the knife at all, leaving only the lower part of the four fingers holding the handle. This has been mindlessly replicated into muscle memory by many and I am afraid, under stress, will manifest in a fight. It has worked its way onto the cover of knife fighting books, to the shadow-boxing some systems call "carenza," and worst, into combat scenarios. It has a "cool" infectious feel and look, thereby I love the term cancer grip. I think it will get you killed. I don't think it would last through the slightest of contacts with the enemy. In my book, maybe even in the article I mention that the lifted thumb is sometimes used for trapping, but at best the thumb trap is a very weak and limited tool. Somehow, of all people in the world, Marc the Animal MacYoung got singled out as victim of one of my so-called cheap shots???? This really comes out of left field. In the Eighties, while I was still doing reverse punches in a karate horse stance, MacYoung was speading the word of reality self defense in his ground-breaking and great books. I consider him a true pioneer in the field. Much the same way that the Dog Brothers popularized the truest meaning of Filipino stick fighting. These people are pioneers. A friend emailed me with a list of six videos where the teachers have cut beef on tape. I think its a great visual idea. What I was talking about specifically though was denounciation of blocking, disarming and grabbing and other survival options, and the failure to give students these options to fight against attacks, (of which by the way, MacYoung is full of ideas and options! MacYoung blocks and MacYoung grabs, etc.) But, some people cut meat to demonstrate the complete and utter futility of facing the knife. A sparring session ensues and the demonstrater turns to the camera after a minute and counts his chalk-marked cuts. OOPS you are a dead man! The video is over and you are left with only dead man hopelessness. Options! I want options! Yet we have all seen and heard of untrained survivors, surviving and even winning knife fights. The typical key? They grabbed the weapon bearing limb as soon as possible and fought on from there, or used any number of tricks, but please give us some hope! The teacher in the video might have had more techniques to show in a follow-up segment, but....times up! The problem, and or so-called "cheap shot" may be at the video company, instead of the star! Now, as any article writer, video or book maker will know, the powers-that-be will screw you, cut off parts, edit the important sections, generally play havoc with your message. The wide-legged railroad stance, appeared in a gun magazine about two years ago. The editor told me, as the story goes, that somebody at the magazine used the wrong cut line under the photo. Instead of denouncing the stance, the cutline glorified the stance! The stance started popping up in police training around the country, I guess at times supported by that article. Its hard to articlulate the focus of a message or article. I hear so often the throw-away line, "well I agree with most everything you say, but..." but really if we had a chance to meet and talk, we would see where everything has a place and position of probabilty and importance, and I truly believe we would all agree on that... Thanks again for the time, Hock [The ~100 blank lines that followed were deleted. Ray] ------------------------------ From: "Dr. Jerome Barber" Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:07:33 EST Subject: eskrima: Kenpo Stick - Revisited I had intended to post the following e-mail on the issue of 'kenpo stick' earlier, but work considerations and the holidays interfered with geeting this done until today. I have kept the entire post as it was forwarded to me and since several people have commented on this matter, I feel that they should have an opportunity to see what was posted on RMAs by a person who seems to have some good insights into the matter. I am somewhat amazed that this issue 'kenpo stick' appears to have discussed on at least two other e-mail discussion groups, namely RMAs and a kenpo e-group that is administered from Scotland. I have withheld my comments, since I posted on this issue earlier. Your comments would be appreiciated Dr. Jerome Barber Date sent: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 08:46:39 -0500 From: "Temujin.2" To: barber@sstaff.sunyerie.edu Subject: [Fwd: Re: Kenpo Stick Question] From: kenpojoe@aol.com (KENPOJOE) Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts Subject: Re: Kenpo Stick Question Date: 6 Dec 1998 01:30:53 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19981205203053.19084.00000478@ng- fq1.aol.com> Dear Adam As a practitioner of both American Kenpo and the Phillipino/Filipino arts, I'd like to address some of the comments made in your response to Mr Zorn regarding American Kenpo and the use of the "Kenpo Sticks"... >. The questions are who created then and exactly what is > "kenpo stick"? How does kenpo stick relate to the > overall context of American Kenpo and what , if any, > relationship is there between "kenpo stick" and escrima. > The comment that I quoted, in total and in context, casts > some serious doubt on the validity of 'kenpo stick' within the > minds of some people who are serious students of the > FMAs. First of all, The "Kenpo Club" has many aspects and techniques that separate it from most of the "Traditional" arts of arnis, Escrima and Kali. The Tailored measurements of the Club [elaborated in Mr Parker's Book on Nunchaku for the length of the club of the nunchaku ] is different than the standard tailored measurements for sticks in any of the filipino arts i've studied or researched. Also, in conversations with Mr. Parker over the time I knew him, His main concern was the "stick to sword" relatitionship. He didn't agree with utilizing many of the stick movements directly to the blade, especially where crossing weapons was concerned. The use of the kenpo Club [as opposed to the Baston/osili/etc..] is focused as an extention of the body, but also as a study of the movements of the body with said weapon as an encyclopedia of motion in regards to "unique" movements separate from the filipino arts. Also, the vocabulary of terminology that was designed distinctly for American Kenpo [but could be utilized by ANY art] in regards to Club handling.{NOTE: the use of the term "Club" as opposed to "Stick"} There will always be similarities in the laws of motion, but to say that Mr. Parker simply mimiced actions of the filipino arts would be a falicy. In regards to being "Valid", the techniques,form, and motions are certainly valid, and as far as the american Kenpoists and the art in general having to "validate" our system of Clubfighting to any member of the Filipino Martial Arts community is ludicrious! I am a member of the FMA community, having studied Kali,Modern Arnis,ArnisLlanada,Arnis De AbanicoLlapunti and Serrada Escima, and I want to make it perfectly clear that you will not find siniwalis,single stick disarms from FMA, or sword and dagger drills in the Kenpo Club art. >In addition, if Mr. Speakman, was correctly quoted, then he is >of the opinion that "kenpo stick" is totally within the framework of >American Kenpo Karate and is not related the FMAs. Mr Speakman was correct in that statement. And having known Jeff and discussed long seven as well as club set, [I'll never forget the look on his face when I showed him that I had the paperwork for the club set!] we both have respect for the FMA but agree that the kenpo stick has a different and modern mindset regarding stickhandling. > Yet, there are numerous Filipino-Hawaiians, such as Adriano Emperado and Sonny Gascon, who were >skilled escrimadors, who are known more for the kenpo variants that they have founded. How can anyone say, with any defree of sincerity that there is no escrima influences in the kenpo arts that emerged from Hawaii and were then taught on the mainland after WWII? As a practitioner and Black Belt of both American Kenpo and Chinese-Hawaiian Kenpo, I am well familiar with both Mr. Emperado and Mr. Gascon, however, only recently did Adriano Emperado mention of his Filipino Martial Arts training, and having studied a variant of Mr. Gascon's art, the Filipino influence in that art at that time was minimal at best. since that time, Gentleman like Bruce Corrigan have strived to reunite the Filipino influence in Karazenpo Goshin Jutsu. But, neither of these fine gentlemen have in the past or the present had a major role in the development of American Kenpo in it's present state. so I can say "with a degree of certainty & sincerity" that the escima connection in American Kenpo is bare minimal at best. >Credit needs to be given, where credit is due. If you are saying that Mr. Parker, developed the "kenpo stick set", then it would seem that it is Mr. Parker who also failed to properly credit the Filipino-Hawaiians. Mr Prker had no reason for "crediting" any Philipino Hawaiian because they had no major influence on his version of stickwork. >Mr. Planas, in his conversation with my friend, stated that *it was not* Mr. Parker, who first developed the 'kenpo stick set'. Thus the burden for neglecting to properly credit belongs else where. on this point, let me elaborate on my conversations with Mr. Planas [who I, among many, consider on many points, The encyclopedia of kenpo] 1) Mr Planas does not teach the Kenpo Club work,nor does he teach Form #7 or the Club Set. 2) most of Mr Planas's work is with the FMAs such as Kali,Carboan [sp] system,serrada escima and balintawak. His approach is geared more towards applying the phillipino arts to kenpo. not the reverse. 3)I asked and valued Mr. Planas's opinions in regards to the art I teach [American-Phillipino Arnis/escrima/kali and I related that it teaches the Filipino approach utilizing Mr. Parker's terminology while still keeping the FMA roots >Regarding the Panther production video(s) on 'the kenpo stick set', I would have to say that the one that I saw was not very impressive. I have seen and worked with, Sensei Robert Austin, Dr. Jerome Barber, Punong Guro Tom Bolden, Guro Dan Inosanto, Guro Chris Sayoc, GM Bobby Taboada and Guro Jimmy Tacosa, in seminars and every one of these men, >were much better in their presentations than what I saw on the 'kenpo stick set' video. All of these men connected the empty hand and the stick into a unified whole. I can understand why the people on the eskrima digest were not impressed with the 'kenpo stick work' that appeared in "Perfect Weapon". IMHO, mohammed Tabatabi's tape on long#7 is a shadow of the complete use of the "Kenpo Club" and is not a valid representation of the Kenpo Clubhandling. >I can not speak out on the 'knife set' - Long #8 - I have seen it and it is outside of the post that I wrote. No one on the eskrima digest mentioned anything about 'kenpo knife'. BTW, that might make for a very intersting seperate thread. BTW, I do want to mention that Mr. Parker always had the highest respect for filipino martial artists, having Ben Lagusa demonstrate at the first internationals in 1964, as well as having Remy Presas demonstrate at a later international Karate Championship at long beach. And remember,Adam...It was Ed Parker who told Young Dan Inosanto that there was "Much more" to FMA that what Dan then knew of the stick arts,and see where that led Guro Inosanto! It definitely would make a great thread, and it was a pleasure writing to you on this matter. I hope that I was of some srvice. "KENPOJOE" Rebelo "The Truth,no matter Who is hurts, is still THE TRUTH!" ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:17:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #13 *************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.