From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #18 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Fri, 15 Jan 1999 Vol 06 : Num 018 In this issue: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #16 eskrima: Re-thanks to Doc and others eskrima: RE: Mystery Inosanto Book eskrima: Padding cont.... eskrima: Traditional Arts? eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #17 eskrima: Traditional, Slight Reprise eskrima: The Little known Art of Yaw-Yan eskrima: About Katch As Katch Can eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1000 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "crossman" Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:32:41 -0800 Subject: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #16 TGIF!!! Stickman wrote: "Though there is much talk of the stick being the prelude to blade work, some oldtimers preferred the damage done by hardwood to use of a blade. More to the bone..." Me: The stick techniques prepare you for the translation to the blade, which is another level. We had a single blade seminar last year where the movements were a whole different trip as compared to using the yantok. Practicing your counters as a basic student helped to develop the body control necessary to learn to move with the blade. Once with the blade, you had to maintain your distance in relation to your opponent. We had to go through much "internal training/preparation" before we got started, and luckily, no one was cut. My cousin who studies Villabrille-Largusa Kali told me once that GM Villabrille preferred the garrote--the bahi war club--to edged weapons. Edged weapons would cut, but the garrote would shatter the bone, which always seemed to never heal properly. We've learned that you can do blade techniques with the yantok (which is how it all began), but you cannot do yantok movements with a blade during practice or otherwise. One of our younger guros saw a demo at SFSU, where one of the people demonstrating was cut by a live kris daga. Our guro said that it seemed that they did the same techniques with the live blade as they did previously with the stick, and that there was no spatial difference between attacker and defender when the live blade was used. As you respect the yantok, so should you respect the blade. Peace, Bob Manalo, Jr. Guro IESA www.tribe-iesa.com +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | The coolest site for free home pages, email, chat, e-cards, movie info.. | | http://www.goplay.com - it's time to Go Play! | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: Rocky Pasiwk Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:12:57 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Re-thanks to Doc and others Thanks Doc. Fung for the info: and every one else who e-mailed me, its amazing how much info you can get on this digest, I guess I must praise the Grand Pobah!!! the one and only Dr. Digest himself Ray Terry You wrote: > Catch is an old term to my understanding. The father of it in America is > Carl Gotch. He trains a handful of people directly like Guy Chase in S.F. > and New Hampsire. He is the relative of Shoto as one of his students took > his wrestling and regimented it in a japanese way and called it shooto. Guy > Chase gives more respect and years ago we started calling it "Gotch > submission wrestling" because gotch himself being a quiet nonselfpromoter > did not have a name for what he taught because his version of catch as catch > can was kinda different in philosophy like Sigung Lee was to KungFu. > Actually I believe it was Frank Gotch ( no relations to Karl ) or maybe Farmer Burns who termed it Catch as Catch Can, I don't know why my father and his associates spelled it with a K, however it is the same thing. The one thing that Farmer Burns was famous for was the ability to not be choked out. Remy Presas use to get a kick out of my father who use to hang himself every day in our basement, and at the age of 75 Remy could not put a choke on my dad even when my father let him!! Its to bad their aren't more Katchas guys left, it is truely an art to be reconded with. I just read something on the Net I don't know if it is true our not but supposedly Karl Gotch broke Heilio Gracies' arm in a match and made him tap out on several occasions!!!!HMMM! Thanks Again Rocky Pasiwk, Chief instructor Anciong Bacons Original Balintawak Founder of Cuentada DeMano ------------------------------ From: "Lankford, James" Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:54:00 -0500 Subject: eskrima: RE: Mystery Inosanto Book out of print, but did exist http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0865681058/qid=916418879/sr=1-3/002-8 604936-1317833 ------------------------------ From: "Galicha, Jr" Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:27:28 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Padding cont.... One note on the question of padding. Angel Cabales, Floro Villiabrille, Tatang Illustrissimo, Jose Mena, Felicissimo Dizon, Ben Lema, Ben Largusa - all great Grand Masters, I don't know if any of these guys used padding (sticks or armor). We don't use padding when we train. And we do go at it pretty hard, but with control. We gradually build up our intensity as our skill and control build up. When the ability to go hard while still stopping at the point of contact is developed - then we are really able to turn it up. New students who want to go hard and just swing away are taught to slow down and respect their training partners - cause if ya hurt em, you won't have any. BTW, I work on a computer most of the day, as do many of my fellow instructors (one of whom is studying to become a chiropractor) and students. My point is, while we all suffer from the occasional bruise, cut and even broken bone - that is the nature of the art we choose to practice. As long as control and proper technique is exhibited, and intensity level is directly proportional to skill level - I believe practitioners can go unpadded. Just call me a hard headed, old school traditionalist. Jun IESA ------------------------------ From: Kalki Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:53:39 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Traditional Arts? > one of the things that i noticed that was different about fma > from the other 'traditional' arts, is that with the others, there is the > tendency to think 'so what?..i can take this hit' > When I read this post I thought "Just leave it alone Mik, leave it to someone else" but I'm a bit in awe of the closed-mindedness displayed. One of my "traditional" teachers described martial systems as a circle, a continuum, the essence of which all reduce to the stuff of protecting self, loved ones, community or nation from the simplest affronts all the way to the gravest extremes. Another of my teachers spoke of our "traditional" school as a school of hard knocks. Someone walks in with their attitudes like a cube with sharp edges and corners. Because of their edges and corners they bounce around and subsequently bump into first this one, then that one and others. Eventually, if their ego can handle it and they're paying attention to what the world is serving them, the edges and corners get smoothed out and they subsequently roll without bumping into anyone anymore. At the heart of the notion is respect. Some people only know to respect the club held over their head or the club after it has made contact. Perhaps better to respect in general, including those who don't have or don't know how to use the club. Maybe they've got Mace. Insofar as comparative martial "arts" go it may be wise to remember that old saying: "Sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you." A number of contributors have recently shared a message about a recent TKD fatality. That's the 3rd factual account that I'm aware of. A couple of years ago there was a tournament fatality in India, young woman caught a roundhouse kick with her neck ... died on the spot. In the late 80's a 15 year old was killed by a heel thrust (what some people call a "push kick") delivered to his chest during practice (Minneapolis, circa 1986 or so). Died on the spot (cardiac arrest). Fighting is fighting. Getting hit is getting hit. To think "I can take this hit" is not a good way to go because in absence of respect for what the hit can do (even if it's supposed to be safe/controlled/etc.) can result in being taken out. Grandmaster David Lin ("traditional" Chinese Martial arts, incl. Combat Shuai Chiao, etc) once lamented the constraints placed on his training ways by American society. He told me that in his training hey-days it was expected for "someone to get killed while training ... here we have to have insurance." He trained anti-terrorists from all over the world with no fanfare in a special place in Alabama. My understanding of traditional martial arts is in contrast with sporting martial arts. Traditional martial arts are very martial, essentially about maiming and/or killing, i.e., traditional as in before modification for sporting purposes. Hey, first time one of my kung fu instructors said something to us about killing it shook me up, but there it was: "You've shown him what you can do, now you're going to KILL him!" The shaken feeling later turned to sad... Respect everyone pal. Respect them from the heart. Maybe it'll come back to you ;-) What the hey, $0.02 for what my noise is worth ... Be well, Mik ------------------------------ From: Kalki Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:57:03 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #17 > >Easy to get unnecessary scars and/or other damage > > As opposed to necessary scars and/or other damage? :) > Man, I got a laugh outta this one! Expert logician, tenrec, expert!!! Be well, Mik ------------------------------ From: Kalki Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:24:08 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Traditional, Slight Reprise I think I forgot to mention that the two fatalities that I described (roundhouse kick to neck [India, tounrament], heel thrust/push kick to chest [Mpls, in class]) were TKD-related. Be well, Mik ------------------------------ From: Richard Marcaida Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:37:53 -0500 Subject: eskrima: The Little known Art of Yaw-Yan Greetings! I lived in the Philippines all my life (til' now) and I've been a practitioner of the FMA ever since. Aside from Kali/Escrima I was also0 into the Filipino footfighting Art of Yaw-Yan (from the words Sayaw Ng Kamatayan, meaning dance of death). Although unknown to the martial arts world here in the U.S. it has quite a reputation as one of the best Filipino kicking arts back in the Philippines. I am leaving for the Philippines this march and will be meeting up with Grandmaster Nap Fernandez (founder) for a visit . I will be getting information from him regarding the art and would like to contribute articles regarding the art and introduce it to America. I'm sure Muay Thai afficionados would be interested inknowing all about it. How do I get to be a contributor to the Matial Arts magazines regarding this Filipino kicking Art? Any info. would be appreciated. Mabuhay ang FMA R.J. Marcaida ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 15:06:43 +0000 Subject: eskrima: About Katch As Katch Can Catch As Catch Can or Katch As Katch Kan (I hope this is the right spelling) I have been researching about this most American Martial Art and have found that there are records of it going back to the Pre-Revolutionary War Days. I have read that at the time that America was being colonized wrestling in Europe was becomming very toned down to a 2 out of 3 falls sort of sport loosing a lot of its original combat applications. The concept of a "Gentlemen's War" was broadly entertained and most wars of the time invloved large groups of men oppossing each other on opposite sides of a battle field. Gurilla (forgive spelling) actions were not seen as gentlemenly or proper at all. However in America where the frontier was wild individual combat and grappling were often being actively practiced out of sheer necessity. It is in this enviorment I have discovered that American colonists took Wrestling principals and mixed them with unique "American Indian Wrestling" techniques to survive. There were numerous confrontations and collaborations between colonists and Indians throughout the early beginnings of America. The term "Indian Wrestling" itself makes the mind wonder. In the 17th and 18th Century I have found several references to Katch As Katch Can or Catch As Catch Can fighters including the wrestling match that Abraham Linclon entered into to win leadership of his Illinois regiment. In the early 1900's I have found too references of many fighters who defeated a numberof challangers including Jiu-Jitsu Masters, Boxers, Ect., Ect. The terms Journeyman (Beginner), Shooter (Intermediate) and Hooker (Master) seemed to be consistent. However this is where the History I have found seems to end. An art of great prowess and seemingly very effective innovation seems to be lost to me. IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE WHO REALLY, REALLY POSSSESS THE TRUE FUNCTIONAL TECHNIQUE OF CATACH AS CATCH CAN? If anyone has any information on this I am interested. I am looking for someone who really knows the real art, someone who learned from someone who learned from one of the great Hookers of early 1900's. Guro Allen Sachetti ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:48:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #18 *************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.