From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #47 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Wed, 3 Feb 1999 Vol 06 : Num 047 In this issue: eskrima: Federal Law eskrima: padded sticks and disarms eskrima: demo-ing chokes eskrima: internal power and FMA eskrima: internal/external eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #46 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #46 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #46 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #46 eskrima: armor - revisited eskrima: Cats eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1000+ members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe & Doro Hironaka" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:24:55 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Federal Law << Could you please give us the citation for the Federal Law that you are referring to regarding the 4" length blade and concealed carry. >> I don't believe that Federal Law covers this. You need to look up your state and local laws. Joe Hironaka ------------------------------ From: "Greg McFerren" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:48:42 -1000 Subject: eskrima: padded sticks and disarms Hello all:) This past weekend my wife and I had a couple of friends over to test some theories on full contact stick fighting.. Here's what happend...we started off using padded sticks to get a feel for the pain/hits.. we only wore helmets and gloves with the whole body being a target.. but no kicks, punches or take-downs to start.. just sticks.. After reading the thread on the padded sticks breaking awhile back, we all talked about it a little before we began.. Anyway, we broke 3 out of 6 padded sticks, but not one of them made a sharp edge or splintered in any way.. they were all " clean" breakes.. but did break pretty easy ( these are the 5.59 store bought foam padded kind.. like on the back cover of IKF). So my feeling for now is they are pretty safe, but you can go through alot of them quick.. also all breaks were in the same place.. about 2 inches from the end.. Now on to disarms... I believe their are two types of disarms.. incendintal and accidential. we had four people of different levels and fought for an hour and a half ( superbowl was coming on:)). all four ppl got at least one disarm two of us got more than 6. All of the dissarms were of the accidental type, and all were a "snake" type dissarm of some kind. It seemed to me that when you hit a person, especially in the torso, that the stick stops for a sec before you can withdraw it enabling the other person to " trap" your stick with his/her arm/or hand. It seamed that these was more a conditioned reflex then a cognitive movment,,,,, but it happened often. We did go to punching/kicking, and take-downs which really made the whole thing fun.. but damm kicks hurt.. if you think you can hit the leg of someone trying to kick.. power to you, you're better then me.. i just didn't want to get kicked.. again...:) Finally to end the day we lost the padded sticks and went to the rattan...let me say this makes a world of difference..3 quick things I noticed form the rattan...1) you move quick... as in " to get out of the way of the stick:) 2) rattan is a little slower than the padded sticks and gets heavy after a little.......3) it hurts like hell in some places but not as bad in others.... what do I mean by that? well I blocked a #1 strike with my forearm ( no pads) and it hurt but not like I thought it would.. then I took a shot to the thigh that ended the fight.. hurt like hell... Well I was just searching for the truth and thought I would share what I found in my first full contact stick figthing experience.. also I would fight with the foam sticks every other day.. but probably every 2 weeks with the rattan.. damm that hurt:) Greg McFerren gmcferen@gte.net ------------------------------ From: tenrec Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 03:44:01 +0000 Subject: eskrima: demo-ing chokes tenrec wrote: > > Medicine Man Mik wrote, among other wise words: > > >BTW, anybody playing around with this sort of stuff should be aware that some people have plaques in the vertebral arteries that can break free and cause an immediate stroke. 'Nuff said. > > Related to practicing chokes, I recently saw a tape (?) or delayed news > report which featured a young instructor demonstrating a "sleeper"-type > choke on a reporter...not meaning any disrespect to this instructor, > IMHO few instructors FULLY understand the medical effects > (side-effects, long-term damage, micro-damage), particularly with this > risky maneuver... > > tenrec > tenrec@avcorner.com Medicine Man Mik wrote, among other wise words: >BTW, anybody playing around with this sort of stuff should be aware that some people have plaques in the vertebral arteries that can break free and cause an immediate stroke. 'Nuff said. Related to practicing chokes, I recently saw a tape (?) or delayed news report which featured a young instructor demonstrating a "sleeper"-type choke on a reporter...not meaning any disrespect to this instructor, IMHO few instructors FULLY understand the medical effects (side-effects, long-term damage, micro-damage), particularly with this risky maneuver... tenrec tenrec@avcorner.com ------------------------------ From: "G. Michael Zimmer" Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 23:27:11 -0800 Subject: eskrima: internal power and FMA Re: Eskrima and Internal Strength For more discussion in this vein, see the web sites: http://www.plumflower.com/who_are_we.htm#INTERNAL MARTIAL ART http://www.rats.demon.co.uk/internal-strength/ There is a lot of occult stuff out there about Chi, but I prefer the more prosaic explanations first; if I come to believe that these don't work, I'll change 'em. You won't ever get to move like a master of internal power without going through a very, very specialized training process, involving some very tedious strength building exercises, a real re-training of the neuro-muscular system, and hours a day of practice using the body in a maximally efficient, relaxed, integrated, co-ordinated fashion. There is some reason to think that standard weight training and other exercises will be counter-productive, because they teach you to move the wrong muscles, move in the wrong way, tense up to much, and rely too much on the extremities for power. Serious and authentic Tai Chi people have specialized strength training, and some have very unusual muscular development, over the body and out to the extremities. If you want a westernized explanation on parts of this, try to get a book by Moshe Feldenkrais. He was a Judo practitioner who developed a way of re-educating people on well integrated movement and good posture. On the other hand, I am miles away from getting any significant results from my own Tai Chi training, and can hardly be considered an authority. It HAS helped me to move much more efficiently in Eskrima. Also, Rich Chan and I have been able to understand better what it is that our own Eskrima instructor does to move so well. He didn't study any internal art, but seems to have picked up some of the skills anyway. Rich, by the way, trains Tai Chi much more seriously than I, and is starting to knock me around. I outweigh him by a lot. He himself has been knocked around by very small people with Tai Chi experience, and he is about 6 foot and 185lb. regards, G. Michael Zimmer http:/www.islandnet.com/~gmzimmer/vorticit.htm > From: "Allen Eastwood" > Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:16:48 -0600 > Subject: eskrima: RE: Tai Chi Fighting ... > I've got kind of my own theory about "internal" power. Based on everything > I've seen, and experienced, I'm not sure that internal power is anything > more than a very sophisticated and advanced use of body mechanics and focus. ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 02:07:01 -0800 Subject: eskrima: internal/external >So, I'd be really interested in hearing other people's take, especially if >you have studied internal and external, and also Jeff, if you want to >comment, I'd be really interested in seeing what your take is on the >difference. Really, a lot of what you could say about internal applies to external. You use the whole body ... you use breathing .... Hard styles focus more, at least initially, on forceful muscular power, and soft styles on relaxation. In debates at my old Kenpo school, we finally decided that there were hard and soft styles, in terms of dynamics, but that external or internal referred more to the level of the practitioner. We used to say "Martial arts are like a circle. On one side, hard style; on the other side, soft. Eventually everyone winds up in the middle." Someone from a hard style will learn to move efficiently, and someone from a soft style to hit with power. Beginners in all arts move superficially, with too much effort yielding minimal result. The skill and understanding of someone with 40 years of practice will be a quantum leap ahead, whether in shotokan or tai chi chuan. Of course, arts that specifically address internal feeling in performance may well develop this realization more quickly, but since many people cross train (tai chi is purportedly popular with many high ranking Japanese hard stylists) deeper understanding of oneself from any source will benefit all activities. Besides, you can postulate that everyone has "internal energy" (if their heart is still beating, anyway). The more esoteric methodologies may focus ones' consciousness towards the autonomously (or at least unconsciously) functioning energies inside, but unless there is a conscious mode of expressing this, so what? Robert Heinlein wrote that "any insufficiently understood technology is akin to magic" (like my computer communicating my thoughts around the world!). Furthermore, secrets are just truths we don't yet understand. Internal arts may ultimately be reduced to simple body mechanics, but some folks just do it better than others. It is, theoretically, a reproduceable skill, but not everyone grasps it equally well, and the best ways of transmitting such skill are largely non-verbal. I think the implication of "internal" training is that the advanced practitioner absorbs enough knowledge to transcend ordinary levels of skill, so that he can perform seemingly impossible feats with astounding ease. Using these distinctions, then, I would talk of hard or soft styles in terms of technical application, and of internal or external stylists in terms of perfection according to these principles. Jeff "Stickman" Finder stickman@autobahn.org ------------------------------ From: "Jon Howard" Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:19:52 -0000 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #46 Steve Wolk wrote (in response to Al Sardinas response etc etc etc) > >1) Student "A" wears no protective gear, since he doesn't belive in it. > >2) Student "B" does exactly the same thing with protective gloves on. Surely the question isn't about the wearing or not wearing of armour, but more do with WHAT armour is worn, I have recently started sparring, initially wearing full body armour - and I found my movements to be very "clunky" and restricted, we eventually removed the body armour but KEPT the gloves, elbow pads and padded helmets. I can live with the odd bruise and welt on my body as a reminder of "doing it wrong" but I'm not prepared to bust up my hands or head for months on end sparring without any armour - I've still got to go to work tomorrow! Although I can see how very easy it is to disrespect head hits, when they just bounce off the armour. In one sparring session I closed on my opponent and let fly a few solid hits to his head, he just walked through them and I got a nasty welt on the ribs for my trouble. The moral - I knew (at least hoped *grin*) that "in the street" those shots would have dropped him and he wouldn't have kept coming, but in the dojo... Techniques have to be modified for the purpose in hand, If I want to "win" at sparring (ie keep the guy away, hurt him more than he hurts me), I'll target the hands, arms, legs, body etc. If I want to "win" on the street (ie stay alive), the targets change! Just my £0.02 Jon... - --------------------------------------------- Jon Howard - jon@full-fat.com "The mind is like a parachute, they both work best when open" - --------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:06:16 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #46 In a message dated 99-02-02 18:47:03 EST, you write: << "However as I get older, slower and hopefully wiser, I know that armor will not enhance any skill or courage. The only thing it will give you is a BIG false sense of security." >> I have always felt that the best summation about armour I ever heard was "Well if all these things can get through it, what good is it?" "It covers your mistakes" Animal ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:09:11 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #46 In a message dated 99-02-02 18:47:03 EST, todd ellner wrioe: << The really difficult part is being alert without becoming exhausted, paranoid, and jumping at shadows. >> Not really. There is a simple trick to being aware and not buring out. Don't focus on only the bad stuff. By this I mean be such a kung fu master that you see sunsets, butterflies and kittens as well as assissins lurking in the bushes. It's called balance Animal ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:13:02 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #46 In a message dated 99-02-02 18:47:03 EST, you write: << Arteries are pretty damn hard things to hit. When I worked in the trauma center, I saw at least a dozen stab wounds to the neck. Of them all, only one even slightly nicked the carotid. >> That's why you wiggle the blade and carve your way out. That small rocking motion after you've gone in is critical as even if you missed the artery. By waving the blade around in his innards it tends to cause more damage and rectify your mistakes Animal ------------------------------ From: "Galicha, Jr" Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:23:21 -0600 Subject: eskrima: armor - revisited Steve Wolk Wrote: >>This theme seems to come up repeatedly on this list, and I must say that its a >>mystery to me. Armor only gives you a false sense of security if you ignore >>what the hit "would" have meant. Let me propose the following scenarios: Yes this issue does seem to come up a lot. There are obviously two schools of thought here. I believe that no one way is absolutely right or wrong. I'm sure there are benefits to training with armor, just as there are benifits to taking other arts such as Judo or Karate. I just prefer to take Eskrima rather than Judo just as I choose to go unpadded rather than to use pads. From the no-padding school of thought here are a few points: We always teach our students to realize is that you will fight according to how you train. And since you won't use padding in a real fight....... One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that your hands get pretty tough from getting hit repeatedly. It hurts, and you bruise, etc. But that's what dit da jow and other linaments are for, right? Besides building toughness you also build up pain tolerance as well. For me, glancing blows don't have the same effect, and wounds tend to heal faster than when I first started. Jun Galicha IESA ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:31:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: Cats > focus on only the bad stuff. By this I mean be such a kung fu master that you > see sunsets, butterflies and kittens as well as assissins lurking in the > bushes. Samurai kittens??? :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:36:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #47 *************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.