From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #53 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sat, 6 Feb 1999 Vol 06 : Num 053 In this issue: eskrima: Target training Re: eskrima: Target training eskrima: ATAMA Winter 99 Seminar eskrima: "Garimot" website eskrima: Good ol' days eskrima: RE: Those "zappy things" eskrima: RE: getting older eskrima: re: Pads vs. No-Pads & Stop hitting my hands!!! eskrima: Hit & Draw Back eskrima: Sundry eskrima: Choke Effects eskrima: Choke/Conditioning eskrima: Krav Maga comic eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1000+ members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Al \"Got This Fish On The Move\" Sardinas" Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:01:36 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Target training Mr. Greg McFerren wrote: "Does anyone when doing Sumbradas, Box Patterns or Sinawall Drills hit the other person's hand every time? or try too? I know when we drill we target the stick, knowing that in RL we would target the hand." In the Garimot System of Arnis when doing drills if contact is made to the hand it is usually the result of the practitioner not executing the drill properly. In practice, 99.9 % we never target the hand because in Real Life we want to strike the head and body. Respectfully, Al Sardinas Student of Garimot System of Arnis ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:27:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: eskrima: Target training > properly. In practice, 99.9 % we never target the hand because in Real Life > we want to strike the head and body. I think I'd rather take out their weapon hand first and -then- go for the head and body. If you don't take out the weapon hand first, then at least control the weapon/hand first. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:37:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: ATAMA Winter 99 Seminar ATAMA Winter 1999 Seminar Sunday, February 21, 1999, 1PM to 4PM French American International School Gym 151 Oak Street San Francisco, CA Presenters: Professor Bill Grossman (stretching), Professor Leroy Rodrigues (lunging reverse punch), Dr. Howard Longsdale M.D. (injury from specific blows), Professor Harry Serman (jujutsu restraints). Cost: Members $20 Non-members: $25 All seminar participants will receive a free ATAMA T-shirt. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Lonnie Pollard Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 16:36:29 -0500 Subject: eskrima: "Garimot" website >2.) Can anyone direct me to websites with info on the Sayoc and Garimot >systems? I see the names pop up regularly, but haven't been able to find >websites that tell me anything about the systems. Last summer I started working on a web site for the "Garimot" system, as a tribute to my teacher and the system. I started the site originally out of a desire to see information available on the web about the "Garimot" system. Gat Puno Abon was supportive (as he has always been). A friend of mine told me he would take care of the HTML, and it was then my task to write the content. Unfortunately, I haven't worked on the content since sometime last summer, and so the site remains about 90% still under construction. The site is at www.garimot.com. I hate to give this information out because of the site being in the state it is. Family and work demands have limited me to very little available free time. Add to that I tend to get overly self-critical for every error I make (and I make lots of them). I hate to write, and I have tried to give up writing as much as possible. However, I will try to return to writing content for the site, or better yet maybe I can get some of the senior students to write some content for me. I've only been a student of the "Garimot" system for about a year and a half, and I find myself misunderstanding many things. Hopefully I can get material from those who know better than do I. I will try to get some things up on the site ASAP. Lonnie Pollard a student of the "Garimot" system of Arnis ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 13:47:29 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Good ol' days >And they hit alot harder and >faster than they way we do now. Most of us are "nine-to-fivers", >stealing time to train whenever we can (at least I do), whereas those >previous immersed themselves wholly into the art. Their life was to >train, so there was nothing to compromise time to learn. Maybe ... While Angel and others like him immersed themselves completely in their art for a time, as many of us do when we are younger and not too full of responsibilities, he worked all his life, much of it hard physical labor. I'd say that's compromising one's training time. 9-5? I'll bet he worked some longer shifts, too, as a seaman or farm laborer. Often the old-timers trained when they could, at night after dinner just like we do now. Modern athletes are bigger, faster and stronger in sports that keep records, so wouldn't there be a chance of that here too? Diet and nutrition are better now, and more is known about conditioning. Now, I'd be more comfortable with the statement that they were TOUGHER, because they were products of their times and we of ours (so maybe they did train harder), but I'll bet they didn't train all-out all the time, which is why drills were developed. Power is power, but sometimes skills like sensitivity and timing must be practiced more surgically. Faster? That's limited by genetics, for one, and by training, aptitude, attitude, focus, intent .... I refuse to believe that some folks I've seen would not be fast or powerful in any age. BTW, when I fought in 2 tournaments in the Philippines, the locals felt that the larger foreigners went at it with too much power. They tried to say full contact had to show finesse, as well. They lost the argument, and many of the fights. I thought the toughest competition in my weight class was right here in California. Jeff "Stickman" Finder stickman@autobahn.org ------------------------------ From: "Allen Eastwood" Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:42:50 -0600 Subject: eskrima: RE: Those "zappy things" > From: "David W. Fulton" > I can't comment on "auditory exclusion", but I can confirm > about the stun > gun from personal experience. A female friend had one while > we were in > college, and one day I thought "Hmmm...how bad could that > thing really be?" > Hey, at least I had enough common sense to test it on my quadriceps > muscle...ouch! ;o) A while back, and under the influence of a bit much beer, I had a lady friend try hers out on my forearm. Yeah, it hurt a little, but it was tolerable. However, the contraction of the muscles was no something that I could stop. So, I'd think the real value of those lies in surprise and the unavoidable muscular contractions. But certainly not something I'd count on to but someone out with. - -Allen mixal@onramp.net ------------------------------ From: "Nik Jones" Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:16:38 -0000 Subject: eskrima: RE: getting older I thought that speed and timing were the first to go, strength remaining the longer. George Foreman, for example, was mucgh slower during his recent comeback, but still packed a wallop. Nik ------------------------------ From: "Joshua Hutchinson" Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 16:42:39 PST Subject: eskrima: re: Pads vs. No-Pads & Stop hitting my hands!!! I've got a couple of thoughts on wearing pads and taking hits to the extremities...... I'm not claiming to be some know it all, if anything I'm a no-know-it-all, so bear with me. I haven't participated a whole lot in "all out matches," other than a few "pick up" matches with family and friends. We weren't trying to kill one another, just break some bones and cartilage( ouch!!!) ;-} Anyway, we didn't always use pads, but if we did we wore head pads, just to protect the marbles. We developed a simple system for strikes: head, or other obvious, debilitating strikes would be considered "kills." Strikes to the extremities would be considered stun hits, which allowed the attacker a split second to enter on his/her opponent before the opponent could defend, which usually turned into kills, anyway! On the flip side, we used pretty much the same rules for no- pad matches: lumps, cuts, etc. on the head were kill hits( as were various stabs if focusing on blade techniques), and stun strikes were just that. To be honest, they weren't 100% reality based, maybe only about 80-90%. After all, too many injuries = time away off work, which = un poquito dinero. Besides, if one trained 100% combat everyday, chances are he/she wouldn't be training that long. Hey, the Teams( Navy Seals)and Force Recon( Marines) provide some of the toughest training in the world, and they don't even come close to 100% everyday, 'cause we're going to need those soldiers to be in tip-top shape if an altercation arises. That goes for all you hard working Eskrimadores and MA'ists, as well! As far as taking hits to the hand/ hand conditioning goes, everybody takes a hit every now and then, don't we? I'm sure a few people landed some hits on the likes of Bruce Lee, Angel Cabales, and Suro Inay in their day. The question is: How many lived to tell about it?!? Ahhh, enough senseless rambling for now..... Back to work! Mabuhay Ang Eskrima!!! ~ Fry Bread Boy ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Kalki Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 17:57:06 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Hit & Draw Back > << >He also wrote that when hitting a person, especially in the torso, that > >the stick stops for a sec before you can withdraw it enabling the other > >person to " trap" your stick with his/her arm/or hand. >> > > In the silat form I study, we automatically pull back the staff after a > strike. Not necessarily because we expect and intentional trap, but because > the automatic reaction to being struck hard is to curl up around the pain. > Which can, and often does, trap the impact weapon as effectively as if the guy > did it on purpose. > In Guro Inosanto's book on the FMA he says draw the stick back after striking. Watxhing a Japanese swordsman we can see the same thing. If no draw back, then the tendency to lose the weapon increases with its weight (try it). Makes sense too then that not drawing the weapon back will also make it easier to respond to one way or another ... reminds me of people who "pose" when they hit or kick (e.g., cross/"reverse punch", side kick) with power emphasis. The return is just as important as the hit, yes/no? Be well, Mik ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:32:19 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Sundry A Howl etc: > I'm planning on purchasing a 4 foot rattan staff to do some work with a > weapon of this length. I was thinking about getting one with an 1 1/4" >diameter. Does this seem like a good size to work with? > > How many of you guys train the FMA with the longer weapon? I have done very > little, other than converting some of the box pattern/sumbradas to the > two-handed weapon. Any training advice or links would be greatly > appreciated. , , , , , > Oh yeah......It would be really neat if we could get Ajarn Salty to discuss > the similarities and differences between Krabi Krabong's two-handed weaponry > with Tapado. > > Thanks again! > ~Kev Kev, I've been working with the 4 ft staff for a bit. FWIW 1 1/4 sounds good to me, but I would suggest working with different sizes and weights-- just as one should with sticks. Converting box pattern/sombradas is a very good idea; you might also try working numerado too to get flow with your combinations. Remember you can work double end as well as single. And good call asking for Salty Dog-- until he can be inspired to grace us with his wisdom, he can be found kicking ass in this month's technique sequence on our website BTW. Looks like Krabi Krabong to me , , , Allen wrote: >As much as I enjoy > personally full/Real-contact stick fighting, and as much as I believe in it > for what it's done for my skill set, I think that there are a number of ways > and tools to help students develop those skill without necessarily putting > them in danger or being so hard on them that they quit before the > conditioning can set in. Yet you still preserve the essence of the art you > are trying to impart. I trust my credentials as a Neanderthal are in reasonably good order, so perhaps I will not be mistaken for a kitty when I agree. Its not so hard to take a natural bad-ass and teach him to fight. The real trick is getting the non-natural bad-ass up to speed. And, to follow up in a similar vein: I think some people missed Bill McG's point about sparring with substantial gear. As I understood it, he was saying that you could do it and stay sharp, perhaps even improve, IF you had already forged yourself. From where I sit, a most reasonable point. Tenrec wrote: > Has Dr. Gyi written any books on his military experiences with the > Chindits? Please post titles, if any... Not to my knowledge, and a great tragedy it is. Cecil wrote: > Hello Crafty - I have really enjoyed reading your stuff on Dr Gyi. This last > one on the Dhanda staff was very interesting. Any chance we can get more > details (maybe pictures on your site?). Have you given any thought to trying > to preserve some of Dr Gyi's teachings on video? It is frustrating to know > that there is this depth of knowledge out there that is hard to access for > most of us. Something besides the occasionally mention on the list would be > appreciated. > > Plus, and no disrespect here, but Dr. Gyi is getting up there in years. The > thought of all that wisdom not passing it on is troubling. I only mention this > because my old boxing coach just passed away last week. His name was Paavo > Kentonen and he was incredible. He was also a judo expert. He took most of his > knowledge with him, and it saddened me alot, especially when there wasn't much > I could do about it. I don't want to see that repeated, you know? Hey Cecil, hope your training is going well. In answer to your question, I have tried to persuade Dr. Gyi to leave a video record several times. His most recent rejection was the most specific-- something to the effect that he did not want to be the center of attention. I took his meaning to be he felt he would be a finger distracting us from the moon. There is also the matter that, according to the group he is teaching, the fact that he discusses matters not for general consumption, and shows things not for the general public. Videos do exist, but they are in the hands of those who respect Dr. Gyi's wishes in these matters. I know exactly what you mean about the loss of irreplaceable knowledge, but that's the way it is. The man is a true gem and well worth unusual efforts to be found. Woof, Crafty Dog ------------------------------ From: Kalki Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 18:52:17 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Choke Effects > For instance, choking out > 100 students one time each, would be quite different from choking out 1 > student 100 times. > There it is ... exactly my point. > I've heard from TCM practitioners (trad. Chinese > medicos) that the cumulative effect of repeated chokes (we're assuming > using the same points repeatedly) could adversely affect the functioning of > those points, cause hardening of the arteries at that point as conditioning > to the stress, and can have adverse affects on blood pressure (related to > the hardening, I believe). > Again, on the money ... but I don't know about the hardening of the arteries part. Whether we take the vantage point of TCM or Western "Allopathic" medicine, the "points" seriously involved are the carotid sinusses, that's it. Th ecarotid sinusses are THE most rapid reacting controller of systemic blood pressure and they adapt to repeated tresses (as does the rest of the cardiovascular system and autonomic nervous system). I wasn't gonna dig into detail but maybe this is something important to consider. The baroceptor reflex is responsible for arterial pressure control. Increased pressure cause the baroceptors (in many large arteries as well as the carotid sinus) to send signals to the central nervous system which then sends back signals to decrease systemic pressure ... in other words, to cause blood pressure to drop. Choking puts pressure on the baroceptors in the carotid sinus ... and also causes oxygen starvation (ischemia) in the brain. The combination of baroceptor reflex and reflex Central Nervous System Ischemic Response can cause very powerful changes in blood pressure control. OK ... carotid baroceptors in response to even slightly increased pressure (include choking) will cause reflex vasodilation (arterial relaxation) throughout the body, decreased heart rate and decreased strength of the heart's contractions. Repeated changes to blood pressure will cause the baroceptors to adapt and maintain pressure at a new level (this is involved in the progress of essential hypertension). A choke sustained long enough to cause brain ischemia (no oxygen) will cause powerful reflex increase in arterial pressure. The resulting blood pressure elevation can last as long as 10 minutes and can go as high as 270 (that's dangerous when repeated ... due to pressure control adaptations or effects on existing weaknesses). The kidneys can shut down as a result. This side of the action is considered the most powerful mover of the sympathetic nervous system's effects on vasoconstriction (arterial constriction ... many of them can close altogether, e.g., in the kidneys, muscles, etc.). OK further (just got my ole trusty physiology book...) thinkin' 'bout this ischemia thing since that's what I was curious about before ... got it ... Depressant Effect of Extreme Ischemia on the Vasomotr Center If cerebral ischemia becomes so severe that maximum rise in mean arterial pressure cannot relieve the ischemia, the neuronal cells (think "brain" here) begin to suffer metabolically, and within 3 to 10 minutes they becom totally inactive. the arterial pressure then falls to about 40 to 50 mm Hg, which is the level to which the pressures fall when the vasomotor center loses all of its control of the circulation -- all tonic vasoconstricor activity is lost. It is fortunate then, that the ischemic response is extremely powerful so that arterial pressure can usually rise high enough to correct brain ischemia before it causes nutritional depression of neuronal activity and neuronal [brain] death. ...and that's the way that part of it works in everybody. Sure, we've got individual differences, but those are the mechanisms to be aware of. Whether we're just practicing or competing or whatever, this is part of what's going on when someone applies a carotid choke. Sorry for the major post ... just thought it was worth knowing. Reminds me of the grapplers who always asked their challengers to "sign the release form" before giving them an opportunity to have at'em. Grapple and choke or no, a slap can zap those carotid sinusses and cause rapid reflex drop in blood pressure. These and other manipulations of these mechanisms may occur with violent trauma like the Iron Palm practioner's slap. Be well, Mik ------------------------------ From: Kalki Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 19:05:10 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Choke/Conditioning > A very new and interesting area of stroke research is the protective phenomenon of pre-conditioning. Pre-conditioning is the temporary loss of blood supply (say for 10 minutes), followed by return to normal blood supply. In the animal model, preconditioned animals have significanlty smaller areas of damage to their brain following permenant loss of the blood supply when compared to non- preconditioned animals. > So is everyone getting choked out preconditioning themselves? Will a often choked out person suffer less in a stroke? I don't know and it would be difficult to say- although a well done epidemiologic study may help. > Again, excellent post. Pre-conditioning for the effects of "transient" brain ischemia sounds like an interesting thing, but I don't wanna go there. Perhaps the animal model will generalize to us animals (not all animal models do) and some people can take advantage of these facts. I'd bet there are some military units that would take advantage of it. NEway, it seems that 10 minutes is the limit for brain ischemia ... after that it's pretty much over ... the brain's demand for oxygen is critical and recovery from ischemia/oxygen starvation is time-critical as mentioned here and in my previous post. One problem for the martial practitioner/trainee is that there is no way to know beforehand how an individual will react to being choked, so it's a dangerous thing to practice, eh? Thanks for the info pal. Be well, Mik ------------------------------ From: tenrec Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 02:53:20 +0000 Subject: eskrima: Krav Maga comic On the topic of Krav Maga...I saw a stand-up comic on Dave Letterman's a few weeks ago...he had a couple of funny "techniques"... tenrec tenrec@avcorner.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:25:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #53 *************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.