From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #55 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Mon, 8 Feb 1999 Vol 06 : Num 055 In this issue: eskrima: taking a hit eskrima: WEKAF is not DEKAF eskrima: Targeting the hand eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #52 eskrima: Indoneasian members? eskrima: Contact practice eskrima: Choking perps eskrima: Re: shouting eskrima: Re: hand strike before head Re: eskrima: Re: hand strike before head eskrima: information on the fma eskrima: What you make of it eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #53 eskrima: When in Doubt... eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1000+ members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom Meadows" Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 08:41:33 -0800 Subject: eskrima: taking a hit Greetings, Last issue someone wrote :"As far as taking hits to the hand/ hand conditioning goes, everybody takes a hit every now and then, don't we? I'm sure a few people landed some hits on the likes of Bruce Lee, Angel Cabales, and Suro Inay" It reminded me of the story Guro Inosanto told about the time Daniel Lee actually landed a punch on Bruce Lee. I Believe Dan Lee was a Hawaiian boxing champion and Bruce Lee took a dim view of being hit. He promptly broke Dan Lees's jaw for him and Guro Inosnato said the punches that Bruce wass throwing sounded like an electric typewriter. Tommy the typewriter tmeadows@fix.net ------------------------------ From: "Tom Meadows" Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:10:36 -0800 Subject: eskrima: WEKAF is not DEKAF Greetings, Last issue Rocky Pasiwak wrote: "I myself don't think much of the WEAKA stuff I think the name says it all" I greatly enjoy Rocky's posts but there are several points I want to address here. First the name of the organization is WEKAF which stands for World Eskrima Kali Arnis Federation, and I and several others on the list travelled to Cebu in 1989 and became founding members of that organization. No one in WEKAF pretends that it is a substitute or equal to unarmored fighting. It's purpose is to promote the Filipino arts through the establishment of a SPORT aspect of the art, just as sport Judo promotes Judo but in no way is a substitute for actual combative Judo applications. There were very few sport Eskrima tournaments prior to WEKAF and no formal sanctioning bodies. There are several others now in addition to WEKAF, and I like to think that WEKAF in some way sparked the growth of other tournament promoters, and tournament rules. We have never had a major injury in WEKAF competition despite some very freak equipment accidents and some very hard contact matches. And yes, these are very hard matches, despite what many say about this sporting group. The proof is real simple: At some point at every WEKAF tournmament I have ever been to we have had to stop the tournament at some point to let the paramedics do their job. Think about it...This means , at least to me, that we have our protective armor at the perfect edge: Enough to prevent serious injury, but also minimal enough to allow the competitors to be incapacitated. Kudos to Diony Canete for the design and development of this equipment, by the way. There are at least four WEKAF world champions that subscribe to this list, myself included. Some of them such as Steve Wolk have multiple championships. And put simply World Championship titles do not come easily. Like any title fight or match it takes a significant training effort and personal focus to claw your way to the top. I like WEKAF, and I also have had about eight Dog Brothers matches, Arlan Sanford and Top Dog included. My WEKAF title fight was intense and painful, The Dog Brother's fights were seriously frightening, but neither has ever comes close to the absolute terror I experienced during the unarmored sparring I had to do with Cacoy Canete as part of my upper level rank tests. And to close here, I want to comment on the the classic response " But WEKAF has rules, and in a real fight there are no rules". My students will often feed me this line of reasoning and this is my reply: "If you can't beat someone when you know the rules, how do you expect to do any better when there aren't any?" Tom Meadows tmeadows@fix.net ------------------------------ From: "Michael Melone" Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 21:50:30 -0000 Subject: eskrima: Targeting the hand >In practice, 99.9 % we never target the hand because in Real Life >we want to strike the head and body. Interesting... My approach is to take whatever debilitating targets present themselves. Since the hand is often the closest target it often becomes a possible initial focus for me. Often, an initial hand strike is followed up with strikes to the head and/or knee and/or elbow or even the hand again. YMMV. The great thing about martial arts in general and FMAs in particular is that we all have our own ways to get the job done. Whatever works. :) Ciao Mike memelone@recycler.com GET YOUR OWN FREE, PRIVATE E-MAIL ACCOUNT FROM RECYCLER.COM -- FREE CLASSIFIEDS, FREE AUCTIONS, AND LOTSA R'COMMUNITY -- HTTP://WWW.RECYCLERMAIL.COM ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 16:17:48 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #52 > From: > Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:26:33 EST > Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #51-KRAV MAGA > > Hello everyone, > I have been doing Krav Maga for the last two years here in LA. > > I also agree that some defenses vs. knife are based on he fact that the > opponent is not skilled in wielding a knife. One thingh that I do not like, > for example, is kicking the arm ( or hand) that is armed with the knife, seems > to me that you can been cut very easily in your leg, and that you have a bad > balance in trying to kick. From Butch: Very interesting point about kicking the knife out of an attacker's hand. From personal experience, it does not work most of the time. For instance, my instructor, Mr. T.Joerg, put on a brief knife defense senario during an intermission of one of his kick boxing tournaments. Anyway, during the senario, his partner tried to kick a knife out of Tom's hand and the attacker's shoestrings somehow snaged on Tom's knife (dull tng blade of course). Needless to say, the attacker and Tom was quite surprised at this wierd happenstance. They rehearsed this little play for several weeks to make it look good and exciting to the audience. Tom was supposed to cut the person's kicking leg during the kick. Needless to say, this snag unbalanced the attacker for a takedown. When we look at the film of the incident, we all laugh but it goes to show you that in acts of violence anything can happen even the strangest things. No matter how skilled you are, wierd stuff can go down that you have not trained for and can surprise you. And yes, train to cut any limb that enters your cutting range. Thus, you can be cut using hand and leg strikes to disarm a knifer. A the same time, I strongly believe that these > weaknesses in dealing with the knife can be extended to the majority of non- > FMA ( I have also a Black Belt in Shotokan). Part of the problem is that, > IMHO, that in order to deal with the knife you must know how to use it in a > proficient way. From Butch: Excellent point. You must know how people use knives in order to defend yourself against them. I got interested in knife defense when I started a corrections career in a maximum security penitentiary years ago. Since they taught us only basic akido against the knifers, I thought that I had better learn how to effectively deal with knife attacks since they happened alot on the blocks. When I reported to the cell blocks at the beginning of my shift, I always searched for homemade knives (Shanks) to help save an inmate or my own life. The only problem I had is that very few people (including many MA instructors) knew anything about knife fighting. Not good for me as an LEO against career criminals who have used such weapons before. The old time officers would just tell me to grab a trash can lid or something like that and use it as a shield and run for help (if you can). I reported one day to work during the day shift. My friend from the night shift handed me the keys to the block and said that he almost got killed a couple of minutes ago. Apparently, when the cell block doors were opened for the start of the day, some inmate(s) stabbed this guy to death in his cell. My buddy missed witnessing this stabbing by only a few minutes. So I went up to the cell where the inmate was stabbed and what a shock that was. The floor was completly red with blood. Half of the cell walls were covered with blood as if someone painted the walls with red paint. The point of this story is that there are people out there who have used a knife and will use it against you. If you are serious about self defense, try to learn the best techniques you can from anywhere you get them. > One thing that I really like about Krav Maga is that is could be called an > art "in progress". The system is open to improvement and modifications, and > also to learn from some other MA. For example, in my dojo we have also the > chance to study BBJ, Mu Thai, > Sambo, and the last week there was a seminar with Bas Rutten. > Even if I do not practice FMA ( for now) I liked them a lot , and I specific > asked if we could incorporate FMA in our curriculum, or at least have some > seminars ( Crafty Dog or someone from Hermosa Beach available?). > Please let me know if someone has more questions about KM.] > Peace to everyone From Butch: The only art that I found that does address blade offense and defense to my satisfaction is the FMA. I highly recommend that you guys use a little of it in your program. > Luca Levorato ------------------------------ From: "BILL MCGRATH" Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 18:41:01 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Indoneasian members? If there are any digest members currently living in Indonesia, could you email me privately. I need some help in locating an old friend there as well as some Indoneasian pop music from the 70's. Please email me at my website email address: TUHON@PEKITI-TIRSIA.COM Thanks, Bill McGrath ------------------------------ From: Michael Koblic Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 05:48:29 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Contact practice >I have had a struggle getting the gentlemen and the ladies in my classes >who have the techniques to work them fiercley so that they get the >skills...they don't want to hit because they don't want to hurt their >partner - which I emphasise at the lower ranks. > This is an excellent point. I do not get to practice with partners much, but when I do I seem to be more of a threat to them through my lack of control than the other way round. Recently I practiced with a senior student of PT who correctly pointed out to me that my stick technique stinks. I realized that I was guiding the stick onto his stick rather than hitting as one should, all because I was concerned about injuring him through my clumsiness. I do not seem to have this problem hitting inanimate objects. Any hints beyond the obvious...? Mike Koblic, Quesnel BC ------------------------------ From: Michael Koblic Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 05:50:40 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Choking perps > A martial arts teacher with fast feet chased down a >suspect running from police Friday afternoon, subduing him with a >debilitating jujitsu neck grip. Stand by for the lawsuit!:-) Mike Koblic, Quesnel BC ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 21:23:37 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: shouting In a message dated 2/7/99 1:06:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-digest- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << No shouting, please... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com >> Rey, Sorry if you think, its seem my paragraph in my last post is shouting. I apologize to all of the ED member. I just wanted to let Jeff know know I restpect him and the others that why I wanted him to mentioned the place where he fought the Philippines that all. I cant control myself not to say anything if thing like this was post. Jeff, I know you have a lot of knowlege already and restpect to many Filipino Masters. I just wanted you to please keep in mind thats Philippines has more than seven hundred islands therefore there's a thousand or millions of Filipino practiced FMA. I dont know I may be mis-undesrtand you but if I did so. Explain and clear this to me thanks in advance and I am very sorry if it came out like seem I am shouting. No I am not. Gumagalang ng lubos/With deepest respect. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International Harimaw Buno Federation ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:17:28 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: hand strike before head In a message dated 2/7/99 1:06:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-digest- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << The Grand Poobah wrote: > think I'd rather take out their weapon hand first and -then- go for the head > and body. If you don't take out the weapon hand first, then at least control > the weapon/hand first. This very easy to say take care of the hand first and then take the head. I think if I had the head I dont have to go to the hand I will go direct hit to the head and continue to what ever part of the body. Take the first available why waste my time to look for that hand and disabling his hand. I think its is just a self preference. If you like to take care of the hand first then the hand as long your sure that you can do it in the right timing and enough power this is good Idea. This is what we call in Laguna "Mangangamay" meaning first strike the hand. In other hand my Family my Grandfather, father, brother and I all "Mang-uulo" meaning Head hunters. Most of my Dad fights, he gets his opponent in the heads and knee all the time. We prefered the Head or the first available opening. >>I agree much more with the second half of Ray's statement, control the hand or the weapon, often by blocking the weapon its self rather than the hand. To block the weapon its a waste of time, but if is worth blocking, used it. This is a good emergency techniques if you got in the corner and no where to go this techniques is appropriate in this scenario. Used the techniques comportable with you, block or strike even deflections is a worth techniques to learn. >>> From my own personal experience, I struck full force to an opponent hand in a >full contact match, caught him right on the nerve of the wrist, which automatically >opens the hand. However the stick continued to whip around and put a hugh dent in >my fencing mask right where my eye was!! So without the minimal pads that >fight might have had a different end result. Which brings me to the > full contact thing that pops up every other month. This is why a lot of masters used Largo Mano to take care of this type of scenario, there's way you can strike your opponents without getting hit by him.. Thats what we call in Laguna "Culto" unreachable. We as Largo Mano stylist we have measurement thats we are using to analized the distance and angle how can you hit without getting hit even you and your opponent strike at the same time. Be very carefull also to the other Eskrimador that used "Tigalpo" is one of the very effective "Orascion" that still exist in the Philippines. Once they used to you you cant move for the meantime it give him a freedom to do what he want from you. You are sort of a frozen body cannot move untill you counter it or some body did counter pit the "Orascion". >>>Stick fighting is like Karate fighting you should practice all aspects of it from >point to semi sparring to fully padded to lightly padded because they all offer >benefits. I myself don't think much of the WEAKA stuff I think the name >says it all, However WEAKA fighter seem to have great endurance and can >go for ever, so this is a great benefit from their form af fighting. >Lighter padded stick fighting builds toughness and a little more respect >for the weapon, but it also comes with a negative by product, injuries, >However stick grappling which is the next level of combat when padded >even lightly is a benefit, because the first thing you learn is Damn >this shit hurts , so you want to close the gap as soon as possible, >because grappling is less likely to break things, unless you have an >opponent who doesn't like you and decides to torture you once he has >control. If you talk to the old timers about stick grappling most agree >it is very important as do I , However most that I have spoken with say >it didn't happen all the often in a real fight with no pads, most fights >were over with real fast, the only 2 fights I ever had for real were >over in seconds, so I believe this. Which is why you must alternate you >rules sometimes allow grappling and sometime don't, and force the >opponents to really stick fight. Agreed, 100% > I thought that speed and timing were the first to go, strength remaining the > longer. George Foreman, for example, was mucgh slower during his recent > comeback, but still packed a wallop. This reminds me of my one Instructor saying, "Do NOT waste strike, wasting strike is wasting energy, energy transformed into power that give the body an strenght". He does not strike a lot but when he does it sure will be land pull of power. Just a thought. Gumagalang /with respect. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International Harimaw Buno Federation ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 07:29:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: eskrima: Re: hand strike before head > To block the weapon its a waste of time, but if is worth blocking, used it. > This is a good emergency techniques if you got in the corner and no where to > go this techniques is appropriate in this scenario. Used the techniques > comportable with you, block or strike even deflections is a worth techniques > to learn. I disagree with your first sentence, but agree with the remainder. Blocking the weapon is not a waste of time. As you say, it may very well be your one and only option... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Brian Hutchinson Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:28:15 -0800 Subject: eskrima: information on the fma Of all the martial art sites I've come across, the sites on Capoeira are the most giving. If you don't believe me then check out these two sites and you will be convinced: http://www.capoeirasj.com/ http://www.wu-wien.ac.at/usr/h96b/h9650297/cap-basics.html The openness of those who practice this art is a positive example for all of us. Too often those with knowledge cling to that knowledge and portion out only bits and pieces here and there. It is hard for those that surf the web to get a true idea of the beauty and magnitude of the fma. Sound clips, video clips, images, and animations should find there way into the fma pages to aid in communicating the richness of the arts. Without informing the public, the arts can never grow. Worse off, the public will be forced to draw their conclusions about the arts from the limited amount of information out there. Capoeira (at least to me) via the internet presents a giving and open relationship with others, will the filipino martial arts follow in their footsteps? Brian Hutchinson ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 00:05:43 -0800 Subject: eskrima: What you make of it >YOU HAVE A VERY GOOD POINTS BUT YOU NEED TO BE CAREFULL TALKING ABOUT US >FILIPINOS. PLEASE NEXT TIME MENTIONED WHERE IN THE PHILIPPINES. TO PREVENT >MIS-WRITE OR MIS WORDS. I apologize if you mistook the tone of my last post. I wasn't trying to cast any blanket aspersions. I was speaking, and can only speak, of what experience I do have. My fights were padded format (WEKAF) in Cebu and Manila, advertised as full-contact, and are a matter of record (1989). The fights I compared them to were WEKAF or NARAPHIL sponsored fights in the U.S. from 1988-1990, plus officiating tournaments since 1990. The debates over the meaning of full contact occurred on the floor in Cebu during competition and were publicly discussed, probably reported in the sports section of the Cebu Sun Times. I am physically bigger than the Filipinos I fought, but smaller than the Australian or British fighters I faced, and they were tougher for me. There's nothing particularly unusual for bigger/stronger people to have an edge in competition, in any sport. Here in California we have many big, strong fighters. There are more heavyweights in some local tournaments than I saw in the World Championships in Cebu in '89. The reverse is true; Filipinos are much more dominant in the smaller weight classes, and there is much more competition in those classes than at heavyweight in the Filippines. In the States, smaller weight classes sometimes have to be combined because of a dirth of fighters. Demographics. There also were some cultural differences, where some locals had trained to show more of the art and the westerners tended to fight in a harder, more direct, cruder manner. Dioni Canete even demonstrated how he envisioned competitors should fight(and he is stylish; how could I look like him!?!), but I believe the line eventually was drawn at some vague "malicious intent" rule under the referee's discretion. This had nothing to do with any manongs back in the hills. We all know the skill pyramid is much smaller at the peak, but there are a lot of us (guys like me, anyway) somewhere in the middle trying to learn, and the grandmasters weren't doing this competition; they were running it. Anyhow, I don't have to look so far. There are guys much closer to home that are better than me. I've been hit by professionals, and I've trained with plenty of old-timers to know that what I did was just part of my learning curve. Jeff "Stickman" Finder stickman@autobahn.org ------------------------------ From: "David W. Fulton" Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 09:33:05 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #53 >From: "Allen Eastwood" >Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:42:50 -0600 >Subject: eskrima: RE: Those "zappy things" > >> From: "David W. Fulton" >> I can't comment on "auditory exclusion", but I can confirm >> about the stun >> gun from personal experience. A female friend had one while >> we were in >> college, and one day I thought "Hmmm...how bad could that >> thing really be?" >> Hey, at least I had enough common sense to test it on my quadriceps >> muscle...ouch! ;o) > >A while back, and under the influence of a bit much beer, I had a lady >friend try hers out on my forearm. Yeah, it hurt a little, but it was >tolerable. However, the contraction of the muscles was no something that I >could stop. So, I'd think the real value of those lies in surprise and the >unavoidable muscular contractions. But certainly not something I'd count on >to but someone out with. To clarify my previous comment, I have to agree with Allen that the stun gun itself did not hurt that much. The muscular contraction in my leg was uncontrollable and when I shut the gun off, my leg went limp, I fell, whacked my arm on the coffee table...hence the "ouch!" I was 21 and we might have had a few beers ;o) Surprise may well be the biggest advantage of the stun gun, unless you were able to reach the abdomen, chest, neck, head, or....genitals! Dave ------------------------------ From: Kalki Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 18:46:08 -0600 Subject: eskrima: When in Doubt... Sounds like the choke has got us thinkin' ... My initial reasoning for commenting on the topic was to question/encourage awareness of how we affect each other as we train. If I remember correctly it took off from the "neck-breaking" thread ... if not, then it's definitely related. I doubt if anyone would hold a choke on somebody for 10 minutes out in the real world unless in a murderous situation, but the issues for the training person are the unknown effects of repeated choking ... also the possibility of cervical injury while mixing it up on the mat. I recall training in a place for awhile last year that was real high on BJJ ... owner had me teach a few classes for him for a few days because of his neck being screwed up from grappling practice. He was pretty much out of it and wouldn't have been much good in a fight because he was in a great deal of pain ... couldn't straighten his neck, couldn't stand straight (ye old "antalgic" pose). If someone had jumped him while he was in this condition he would have gone through some hell trying to deal with it if he could manage to deal with it at all. I don't think the injury was caused by a choke per se, but choking or the attempt to secure/maintain or escape one was probably a part of the story. BTW, I helped the guy out with his neck ... his teacher had told him it would take a number of weeks to recover ... I put him back on his feet in 2 days. NEway, I started this post with thoughts about a currently popular motto "When in doubt, choke'em out." Most of my comments up to this point have simply been to say "Be careful" because chokin'em out might sometimes be a more drastic move than we think, especially if dealing with some cretin on the street ... if they fight against a choke hard enough they might injure their own neck in the process (ref. previous posts about neck "breaks", cervical injury, etc.) and if it's not a life/death self defense scenario they might make us pay for it. Duh, Mik ... if we bust their chops they might do that anyway. On that note, maybe it's a good idea to be aware of legal eagles who make a habit of working with self defense cases. BTW: Note that the carotid slap may cause some of the same effects as the sustained choke. Nerve responses, like "energy" responses in acupuncture (sedate vs tonify) , can be different for different tyes/qualities and intensities of stimulation. The effects of short, sharp pressure can be very different from the effects of pressure that is sustained and broad. Curious: In a multiple attacker scenario, does it make sense to go for a choke on anybody but the last one? Be well, Mik ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 07:32:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #55 *************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.