From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #56 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Mon, 8 Feb 1999 Vol 06 : Num 056 In this issue: eskrima: Hitting senior grades eskrima: The passing of Herminia Canete eskrima: sundry observations: eskrima: Re: Meadows/Canete Re: eskrima: sundry observations: eskrima: Dog size eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #53 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #55 eskrima: RE- Hand strikes/full contact eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1000+ members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Lowery" Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 07:56:57 PST Subject: eskrima: Hitting senior grades "It reminded me of the story Guro Inosanto told about the time Daniel Lee actually landed a punch on Bruce Lee. I Believe Dan Lee was a Hawaiian boxing champion and Bruce Lee took a dim view of being hit. He promptly broke Dan Lees's jaw for him and Guro Inosnato said the punches that Bruce wass throwing sounded like an electric typewriter. Tommy the typewriter tmeadows@fix.net" Hi Tom, A couple of points. 1) I have always been told "you shouldn't hit senior grades" This is usually taken to mean that you should show the senior grades such respect that you make no real attempt to hit them. I prefer to know that they are senior grades because I cannot hit them (although I do try ;-)). 2) I have trained with senior grades within T'ai Chi and Eskrima, and have experienced the same thing as you describe. A (usually) lucky hit gets through, they get that look in their eyes and I immediately think "...ahh, now that was a mistake". And it usually was!! It appears to be the mind set of those who wish to be the best they can be. billlowery@excite.com _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Tom Meadows" Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:18:06 -0800 Subject: eskrima: The passing of Herminia Canete Greetings all, It is with great sadness that I announce the passing of Herminia Canete, Grandmaster Cacoy Canete's wife of over sixty years. She was a wonderful person and in her own great style she died on February first, her birthday. She was truly fun to be around, she raised seven children with Cacoy, and for those of us that knew her she will be sorely missed. Tom Meadows ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:29:54 -0800 Subject: eskrima: sundry observations: A Howl of Greeting to All: 1) Concerning this thread on what target to look for first: If I may say, with no offense intended to anyone, that at moments it sounds like chess players arguing over which piece is better, when in point of fact all chess players use all the pieces. Yes, there is a hierarchy (pawn, knight/bishop, rook, queen) but when good players play, even the loss of a pawn is a big deal. A particular player might have a preference for bishops over knights because their reach is longer, but might readily trade a white square bishop when it is blocked off by a diagonal of white square pawns in exchange for a knight in a position that threatens him with a fork. On blocking, a similar point. If I interpret correctly, and please tell me if not, the idea expressed of "blocking is a waste of time" refers to just hitting at whatever your opponent throws. In DBMA we call this type of opponent "the swatter". And Abon I think is right, to do this can be just a waste of energy. Concerning the word "block": I think most of us have heard this word used with different meanings. (It all depends on what "is" is.) Many of us learn from people for whom English is not a first language. For example, for Punong Guro Edgar it was his fifth language. The term "Block" can be used to mean a meet the force obstruction. And many people use it to refer to any weapon to weapon contact i.e. it refers to parries, deflections, etc as well as meet the force. 2) Tommy the Whip failed to mention himself as the source of one of my favorite quotes, something to the effect of "If it ain't to the death, then there are rules." I am less impressed by the quote with which he concludes his post to the effect of "If you can't beat him with rules, then how can you beat him without rules." I find this to be a bit of a non-sequitur. There are people who can beat me in sport Jiu Jitsu who I can cream in vale tudo. I also think the same applies to WEKAF and DB Real Contact Stickfighting. I think the concern that some of us have over the WEKAF fighting is the risk of it creating undesirable behaviors for a non-rule environment. Of course, the same has been said by some concerning us, but I do think most of us would do pretty well in an unarmored situation. Yes we have some gear, but we also "know our tools" IMHO. Tom makes his points concerning WEKAF well, but he writes from the perspective of someone who has played the DB way, and has had the unarmored experience with GM Canete. When WEKAF is done integrated with a larger and deeper training with an understanding of what it is and isn't, as it is in Tommy and Jeff's case, is when its merit is greatest I suspect. 3)Mike wrote: "This is an excellent point. I do not get to practice with partners much, but when I do I seem to be more of a threat to them through my lack of control than the other way round. Recently I practiced with a senior student of PT who correctly pointed out to me that my stick technique stinks. I realized that I was guiding the stick onto his stick rather than hitting as one should, all because I was concerned about injuring him through my clumsiness. I do not seem to have this problem hitting inanimate objects. Any hints beyond the obvious...?" Back in the mid 80s in the pre DB days of "the After Mid-night Group" we often had people want to try our "sparring" who had a problem with really hitting. After we hit them, they got over it. Several years ago Burt Richardson wrote in his IKF column about going against Eric for the first time. As he was putting on his gear, I said to Burt "Hit him, because he is going to hit you." He thought this strange advice until Eric let one fly. (I think Tom Meadows has a similar story.) Once you have this point in application, it should be no problem training with the right focus. 4) Rocky wrote: >However stick grappling which is the next level of combat when padded >even lightly is a benefit, because the first thing you learn is Damn >this shit hurts , so you want to close the gap as soon as possible, >because grappling is less likely to break things, unless you have an >opponent who doesn't like you and decides to torture you once he has >control. If you talk to the old timers about stick grappling most agree >it is very important as do I , However most that I have spoken with say >it didn't happen all the often in a real fight with no pads, most fights >were over with real fast, the only 2 fights I ever had for real were >over in seconds, so I believe this. Which is why you must alternate you >rules sometimes allow grappling and sometime don't, and force the >opponents to really stick fight. Rocky's observation on the psychology here is dead on. Stickgrappling hurts a lot less, especially when you win. However, it is very important to remember that some really vicious striking can be done in stickgrappling. In the standing striking ranges (largo/medio/corto) rarely, especially against the modern fencing masks, do I have to hold back apart from reasons of avoiding overwhelming someone psychologically, but in stickgrappling, especially when the masks have come off during the fight, I regularly hold back so as to not reduce IQ lastingly. I hope I do not come across melodramatically here, but this is my thought. The question of its frequency in unarmored fighting is one I often wonder about, and what Rocky has heard from old timers, I have heard too. When in the Philippines training with GT Gaje, during a rest I was asking him about his preparations for the then approaching "Battle of the Grandmasters" in which he had issued a stick/blade challenge. Of the many things he said that caught my attention the one relevant here was "If he lasts three seconds with me he's very good." Obviously, the gear that we use, albeit minimal, can make a big difference. It also means that we can hone our closing technique in a way that would not be possible in the complete absence of gear. I think this is an important point. The only person I have seen stop Top Dog from closing, and even then not consistently, is Salty Dog. I have seen 50 year old Underdog close without any contact being made at all- not on him, not even on his stick-- but he used to race motorcycles at 150mph. I think I can close gearless against most people, but like all fighting, it is always also a matter of whom you are fighting. And if you don't have a strong stickfighting game, its going to be much harder to close safely, so I agree with Rocky that its important to sometimes not allow the grappling. Woof, Crafty Dog PS: I believe Dan Lee was the boxing champ of China, not Hawaii. I doubt this was PRC, probably ROC. ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:32:38 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Meadows/Canete <> This is very interesting Tom, could you possibly elaborate on your sparring experience with Canete since not many of us have had your first hand account? What did he do to cause such terror outside of the fact that you knew who he was-like the difference of timing, power, speed, intensity and positioning etc. contrasted to others of good skill you have fought. How long did it take before he established superior position.. Did he trap you or stay long distance ? stuff like that. I've only met Diony and he was full of positive energy, quite a personality as well as VERY skilled. Thanks in advance. - --Rafael-- ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:15:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: eskrima: sundry observations: > On blocking, a similar point. If I interpret correctly, and please tell > me if not, the idea expressed of "blocking is a waste of time" refers to > just hitting at whatever your opponent throws. In DBMA we call this type > of opponent "the swatter". And Abon I think is right, to do this can be > just a waste of energy. I'm confused... By hitting at whatever your opponent throws are you implying the stick or the hand/arm holding that stick? I recall seeing Salty do this during an encounter with an opponent using a boken. Every time the opponent entered Salty hit the guy's hands. Even tho the boken person was wearing heavy gloves, after getting hit about four or five times he threw down his weapon. Without the gloves he would have probably thrown it down after the first or second hit. Am I missing something here? That doesn't seem like a waste of energy. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:47:57 EST Subject: eskrima: Dog size In a message dated- P.S am I the only one that thinks Morro is the better looking of the two, with a dog that size who needs martial arts!!! >> It is not the size of the dog in the fight, It is the size of the fight in the dog. (Top Dog vs Dogzilla,...etc.) Tom Furman..proud owner of 45lb, Ripley--American Pit Bull Terrier ------------------------------ From: jmfrankl Date: Mon, 8 Feb 99 16:23:20 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #53 >In Guro Inosanto's book on the FMA he says draw the stick back after >striking. Watxhing a Japanese swordsman we can see the same thing. If >no draw back, then the tendency to lose the weapon increases with its >weight (try it). Makes sense too then that not drawing the weapon back >will also make it easier to respond to one way or another ... reminds me >of people who "pose" when they hit or kick (e.g., cross/"reverse punch", >side kick) with power emphasis. The return is just as important as the >hit, yes/no? > >Be well, >Mik Yes, definitely. And from a friend trained in classical Japanese swordsmanship, the "draw cut" is for that, to cut. The katana is not a hacking weapon--that's why all those snake oil salesmen get away with cutting melons off of bare bellies--rather it slices on the draw backwards. Whether this is also designed to prevent disarms I don't know. John ------------------------------ From: jmfrankl Date: Mon, 8 Feb 99 16:45:00 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #55 >Curious: In a multiple attacker scenario, does it make sense to go for >a choke on anybody but the last one? > >Be well, >Mik Depends on the choke. If you got behind someone and remained on your feet while choking you could keep him between you and the other ? guys. But tackling and mounting your opponent while his friends break bottles over your head, no. ------------------------------ From: Rocky Pasiwk Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 18:34:12 -0800 Subject: eskrima: RE- Hand strikes/full contact Guru Pat Wrote: > > This very easy to say take care of the hand first and then take the head. > I think if I had the head I dont have to go to the hand I will go direct hit > to the head and continue to what ever part of the body. Take the first > available why waste my time to look for that hand and disabling his hand. I > think its is just a self preference. If you like to take care of the hand > I agree that obviously if you can take the head first you would be a fool not too!! However you can not simply ignore the attack coming at you, nor can you always just slip it and counter, ( a common Balintawak move ) something I don't see a whole of others do. As I said though you can't always go after the hand, only take it if its natural. Tom Wrote: > I like WEKAF, and I also have had about eight Dog Brothers matches, Arlan > Sanford and Top Dog included. My WEKAF title fight was intense and > painful, The Dog Brother's fights were seriously frightening, but neither > has ever comes close to the absolute terror I experienced during the > unarmored sparring I had to do with Cacoy Canete as part of my upper level > rank tests. > Sorry Tom like I said and admitingly I only seen a couple of demo's, but a few years ago some guys gave a demo of ( sorry my mistake for previous spelling ) WEKAF, and like I said they had incredible cardio fitness. They stood their and beat the crap out of each of for what seemed like for ever, Remy and I got a kick out of them, in fact he got pissed at me cause I made him laugh while they were giving their demo, I told him that they reminded me af rockem sockem robots. And one of these guys was some kind of champion!!! Like I said they have great stamina, I would have died in the first couple of minutes. But please it is nothing like the way I came up in PT or the way we fight now. As far as you fighting Dog Brother style, this I have much respect for. Not so much because of their fighting style ( sorry Marc, you know I respect you ) but the PT guys I came up with were fighting like that back in the 70s. To tell the truth what impresses me most about Dog Brothers is a statement made by one of the greatest fighters/martial artist I have ever met said about Top Dog, Tom Bisio said Top Dog Had the highest pain tolerance of anyone he ever trained. This coming from a guy who back in the late 70s went to the Philippines got his jaw broke in a full contact match with no pads and still went on to defeat everyone he fought. So Top Dog must definitely be Unique or possibly mentally irregular :-)))!! So if you fought him, congratulations. As far as you fighting Cacoy for real, if this is true WOW!!!!! Rocky Pasiwk Chief instructor Anciong's original Balintawak Founder of Cuentada DeMano ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:53:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #56 *************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. 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