From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #80 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Wed, 24 Feb 1999 Vol 06 : Num 080 In this issue: eskrima: Mt. Banahaw eskrima: My compliments to the chef... eskrima: Continuation of a style... eskrima: RE: Abu Dhabi eskrima: escrima: elbow training Re: eskrima: elbows eskrima: Selling the FMA's and Hernias eskrima: Re: Why study FMA? eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #79 (fwd) eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #79 eskrima: Re: Laguna Doce Pares eskrima: FMA in Kenpo eskrima: Sotis' Website eskrima: John Clements eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1050 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Reyes Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:11:02 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Mt. Banahaw > > Also a history questions: I heard that Felicimo Dizon was a member of the > secret Doce Pares Society that was centered in Laguna, not the one in Cebu. > Anyone else know anything about this? Stories of the legendary Doce Pares Society can still be heard from the "Apo Lakays" who reside around Mt. Banahaw. The Doce Pares' exploits on the mountain are revered. In particular events taken place at Kuwebas ng Diyos Ama, an area that has much significance to the escrimador. Alis na, David Reyes~ ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:21:36 -0500 Subject: eskrima: My compliments to the chef... Good afternoon, all.... I'm sure you've heard this before, but I'd like to convey my compliments to Nick Papadikas, owner of Kimbat Instruments. I just received the full-contact kali sticks I ordered from him.... they are excellent!!! Very meaty, with a good feel to them. Looks like they can take a lot of abuse!! :) I admit, I'm kind of plugging the sticks, :) but I've tried several different types, and I really am impressed with these. If you want to check them out... here's Kombat Instrument's web site: http://www.bloodsport.com/ ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:36:56 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Continuation of a style... tenrec wrote: >>Things sure are slow around here. Must I insult someone, again, to stir >>things up at bit.?. :) >Yer right, we sound like a bunch of of fogies sitting around a cracker >barrel at the general store... >So let me ask a theoretical question to the digesters: >If you were the last practitioner/teacher of a family MA, would you >a) seek a successor to carry on the tradition >b) document your style and make these documents available to the general >public >c) take the style with you to the family plot >d) other Hmmm... I guess I'll take a crack at it... :) There are, of course, advantages and disadvantages to each.. (no duh!!). Interestingly enough, I just had a similar discussion with a fellow instructor... my conclusion is that it is more beneficial to document a style, then to seek a successor (not that a successor is bad, mind you!!). It's just that in this day of communication and media, it's very easy to reach a large number of people, give them information, and allow them to interpret it as they may. Fundamentally, no matter how faithful he tries to be, a successor will edit/tweak the system that he learned to fit his own set of preferences (body type, strength/weight ratio, etc...). Now, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, because the martial arts should be about personal expression of oneself. However, when viewing it in that light, : "styles" and "techniques" (the words themselves) actually become viewed in a different light. They tend to become "tools" and "strategies" to the practitioner, and in that respect, the practitioner must decide whether he likes or does not like the tools and strategies that he has been given. Viewed in that respect, I (personally) would want to make the tools and strategies that I have found useful available to the public, so that they may discern for themselves the merits of my approach as it relates to their approach. The problem with my belief, is that it means that my style does not technically continue after my death... however, I am really starting to believe that a style is much like the "patterns" that are communicated in the FMA... you start with a set routine or system, and then slowly break up the system or pattern until it becomes free flowing and expressive. I feel the same way about styles (no disrespect to any style; I believe them to be invaluable in terms of categorizing strategy and structure in an easy to learn format)... you learn a style (or several), and then begin to "break the pattern", to individualize it.... as my instructor says, "to walk away with a Mike-do style, or Doug-do style, not a Okinawan Karate-do." To make a style which is uniquely your own; that is what I would desire for people learning from me. That is why I would document my style for the general public... :) This is a thorny issue, and brings up the concepts of whether 'tis better to learn a style, then "break" the pattern, or should one be bombarded with strategic combat info, to develop and formulate his own style from scratch... :) Comments are welcome, and as always, this is purely IMHO, with no offense to anyone on the group... simply some of my own thoughts as to my take on this. Enjoy the day!! With respect, Mike Worth ------------------------------ From: "Lankford, James" Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:33:13 -0500 Subject: eskrima: RE: Abu Dhabi Tom Furman....tcsno@aol.com asked Is it true that Rigan will compete in the Abu Dhabi tournament with Jean Jaques Machado? The answer, yes http://news.adcombat.com/ ------------------------------ From: Cory Andrew Eicher Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:38:20 -0600 (Central Standard Time) Subject: eskrima: escrima: elbow training From the training that I have done with elbows, most elbow shots are very analogous to a cross (when follow-handed) or a short hook (when lead-handed). This makes it fairly simple to pratice the shots on a bag or with a trainer using focus mits. As far as sparring with elbows goes, the only thing that I can think of would be to wear boxing-style headgear and a mouthpiece and deal with the damage... ============================================ Have you seen my garden? It is most peculiar, Nothing there that grows looks anything at all like plants, I hear their voices... -Danny Elfman, "Whole Day Off" ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:53:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: eskrima: elbows The one thing I've seen with elbows is that they are sometimes taught more like a forearm block in (American) football (a 'flipper'). This type of movement isn't nearly as powerful as a properly thrown elbow, e.g. a muay Thai elbow. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "David W. Fulton" Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:18:03 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Selling the FMA's and Hernias Sovann wrote: >Now I am trying to gather interest in our kenpo club to host my former >FMA instructor, but whenever I mention it, I get looks that I interpret >as "Why would I want to hit someone with a stick?". I don't demo FMA >techniques since I am not certified to teach, but I have tried to explain >how it amplifies the development of angulation, footwork and the >practicality of learning to defend against stick and knife attacks. >Doesn't seem to be sinking in. Hmmmm....hit 'em with your fist, then hit 'em with a stick...then whip out the bolo or barong and... ;o) Seriously though, I dabbled in FMA for years while doing other styles, so I've seen this too. I used to get out a practice knife and have them try their knife defenses while I used the knife, FMA style. After I'd finished "cutting them up" I'd tell them I'm a novice in FMA. It can seem a little obnoxious, but usually gets the point across. Another way is to get a couple of them (pick ones you get along with well) together with your FMA teacher in a less formal setting (like a garage training session). Maybe don't even tell them about the FMA teacher, just say a "friend" will be joining you. Let them see first hand and you might have some support for your proposal. Sneaky I know, but what the hey! Now a question of my own for any medical types, or anyone who's had a hernia. What kind of symptoms might one have with a hernia? :o( TIA. Dave dwf@computerpackages.com ------------------------------ From: "Todd D. Ellner" Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:20:29 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Re: Why study FMA? >I was a brown belt in Kenpo when I took a year off to study FMA. I was >hooked from the first class but could not continue. Once they turn into Kali pups they're never the same again :-) >Now I am trying to gather interest in our kenpo club to host my former >FMA instructor, but whenever I mention it, I get looks that I interpret >as "Why would I want to hit someone with a stick?". o Classic Chas Clements response: "I don't eat with my bare hands. Why would I choose to fight with them?" o If you teach anything out of the Ed Parker lineage you could mention that Mr. Parker had some Escrima in his background and that the blade and percussion techniques in Kenpo derive (albeit with some problems) from FMA o There is a reason that Cthulhu gave you opposable thumbs. It is so you can use tools. Tools make self defense a lot easier (if they are there to learn self defense). The vast majority of martial arts technique in every time and place has been with weapons. If they are interested in tradition, completeness or the like say that this will help complete their study o Even if they've bought into the whole "I come to you with empty hands" nonsense, and I'm not shy about saying that it is nonsense, there are weapons out there in the world. To learn a specialty, go to a specialist. FMA specialize (broad generalization) in the use of hand weapons and defense against them. Also, if you want to be better at defending against a weapon you should be familiar with its use, capabilities, and limitations. FMA is an excellent vehicle for developing that familiarity. o FMA have really good footwork which fills in some holes in Kenpo footwork the way it is sometimes taught. o Many FMA teach at a slightly different range than Kenpo is comfortable in. To be really good you should be comfortable in all ranges. o The smell of burning rattan is intoxicating, addictive, and perfectly legal :-) >I don't demo FMA >techniques since I am not certified to teach, but I have tried to explain >how it amplifies the development of angulation, footwork and the >practicality of learning to defend against stick and knife attacks. >Doesn't seem to be sinking in. An old German proverb goes "Those who will not see must feel." More than this deponent saith not... >What do you instructors say to "sell" people on FMA (vs. Empty-hand arts) >to newbies or people form other arts? You can talk all day, but eventually they want to see. There are several excellent FMA instructors in the Northwest. Arrange a demo. Hell, Tiel and I are incredibly rusty, but if you are in the greater Portland area we could probably show something. >Have you ever encountered students >who were willing to learn stick techniques but hesitant to learn knife >techs for ethical reasons? Yep. There are things you can say and experiences they can have that can change their minds about this. Do you want specific advice? ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:52:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #79 (fwd) Sent to the wrong address. Ray - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Forwarded message: Sender: thook@exis.net To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:19:59 -500 Subject: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #79 >Subject: eskrima: Elbow training > >Hello everyone, >=09I was wondering if anyone would like to share their thoughts on the >way they train elbows. >I certainly believe they are excellent weapons that are well worth >cultivating. I guess one can do this through number of methods, such as >elbowing pads and the heavy bag and also "placing" them on a training >partner for target awareness. However, using them in a sparring situation is >bound to be hazardous as a gloved fist in the face won't tend to cut and >tear in the way an elbow might. Is there some way to take elbow training to >the higher level and maintain some safety margin for learning? How about >padding the elbows and head? Is this one of the things that a hubud drill >based on elbow strikes is meant to give. A sort of "conditional" sparring? > >Does this prompt a question regarding what level of danger in >training/sparring/competing is acceptable or productive? =3DDe-lurk=3D Hello Rob, As far as elbow training goes--Along with Kali I also train (practice?) Muay Thai. Most of our elbow training is done with a partner holding focus mitts on each hand. With your training partner holding the mitts at head height (and knowing the intended combination) you can throw full-power elbows. You can also use the heavy bag but to me it doesn't 'feel right.' I have never used a speed bag but it might provide a good target for single throw elbows. (If someone can get into a "boxer's rhythm" on the speed bag, using elbow strikes: (1) I would really like to see that! (2) don't ask them to spar ;-) ) As far as sparring using elbows--YeeOuch! Our Kru said that, as far as he knows, that boxers (Nuc Muay) don't spar in Thailand using the elbows. Elbows are saved for the ring because of the damage possible from, even, 50% shots. Pads for the elbows .... I do not know of any ... but I'm sure that somebody might make something. Let me say, that even if there were elbow pads and HEAVY head-gear in use, I would have to 'pass' on sparring with elbows. And I ~like~ to spar. (Kru Cucci teaches ~very~ well. ;-)) I have witnessed two accidents during elbow training. (it happens ... more on risk in a minute) Both times the receiver of the elbow(s)fell like a 'bag of rocks.' Both of the gentlemen training elbows said that they were ~not~ throwing full-power shots. Thankfully, no one was put out of training. >Level of Danger.< This has to be a decision of the individual. Respectfully, Michael Kitchen thook@exis.net ------------------------------ From: Ted Truscott Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:02:38 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #79 > >From: "Sovann D. Pen" (snip) >What do you instructors say to "sell" people on FMA (vs. Empty-hand arts) >to newbies or people form other arts? I went outside my chosen art to train with the knife because I've always been fascinated with sharp and shiny objects. This training showed me immmediately that the dojo stuff I had learned as a defence to a knife attack were "fantasy defences to fantasy attacks." When I tried to share this back 'home', I got the ordinary dojo resonses as the gospel truth, especially from tough guys who were indissposed to listen to a mere 12 years experience. These responses were usually: 1. While he's cutting me, I'll be killing him." and 2. I don't mind taking a shot to give a shot. The only way I could get their attention was to get on the floor with them and show them. When they SEE just how fast the knife hand moves and how unpredictable it is in terms of their past training, sometimes the light actually goes on! (I've seen the same look on the faces of hard stylists who take a good shot and suddenly find themselves lying at the feet of a soft stylist and they didn't see or feel a thing - AND on the face of a soft stylist the first time he felt the raw penetrating power of a hard stylist's focused punch, just after his soft block collapsed. Reality - the best teacher. >Have you ever encountered students >who were willing to learn stick techniques but hesitant to learn knife >techs for ethical reasons? Yes, not much you can do. Let them explore why a punch is more ethical than a stick or a knife is less ethical than a stick. IMHO, narrow definitions of moral standards may be mere prejudice. If it is ethical to learn self defence, I tell them that without learning how an knife is used, they will never be adequatly trained to face one and they can always throw it away (like in the movies) after a successful disarm! And on my floor, everyone has to play uke (dummy) for someone else, no one gets a free ride. - --sorry this is so long- the topic is a major button to a favorite soapbox. Ted T. "the fighting old man" ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:41:30 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Laguna Doce Pares In a message dated 2/23/99 9:16:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-digest- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Also a history questions: I heard that Felicimo Dizon was a member of the secret Doce Pares Society that was centered in Laguna, not the one in Cebu. Anyone else know anything about this? >> I been waiting to this moment that someone will brought this up. Well according to my father Grandmaster Felipe "Garimot" Baet Doce Pares that exist in Laguna was a popular group of masters who gather together in mounth Banahaw every Holy weeks and test themselves and theres Arnis skills into real hard works. Many of the Masters come to this gathering are known from Visaya, Bicol, Batanggas, Cavite, Laguna, Nueva Ecija. etc. I was hesitate to talk about this Doce Pares that exist in Laguna. The group started on early of 1800's during Katipunero Regime. Well a lot of masters was saying its a real thing, some came with there Anting-anting and some came with there Arnis skills and then later became Arnis,Escrima testing place. It is hard to talk about Doce Pares because the popularity of Cebu Doce Pares. But I think it is the right time to let others, there are Doce Pares Group that existed before them long before this masters of Cebu was born. My Great Grandfather is a member of this unanimous Doce Pares Clan. It break out during Fil-Spanish War. Then it was re-group after the war and brekagain during Fil-American War. Finally it was re-organized by the Lumban Arnis Club on 1920 meeting place the well known (Pugad Lawin) Hawk nest of Laguna the Mount Banahaw in Los Banos Laguna. They were called (Pugad Lawin) Hawn nest. It was named it after the original meeting place of the Katipunero's. I have to go but I will continue the second half later. I have to teach a class now. I hope it will help a little bit in your history of Arnis in Laguna. This might help a little in the missing link of the histroy of Felicisimo Dizon and Angel Cavales that both known to work in Rizal that just the Boundery of Laguna province. Gumagalang/with respect Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation ------------------------------ From: "Brian T. Henderson" Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:52:26 -0800 Subject: eskrima: FMA in Kenpo Sovann D. Pen wrote: I was a brown belt in Kenpo when I took a year off to study FMA. I was hooked from the first class but could not continue. Now I am trying to gather interest in our kenpo club to host my former FMA instructor, but whenever I mention it, I get looks that I interpret as "Why would I want to hit someone with a stick?". I don't demo FMA techniques since I am not certified to teach, but I have tried to explain how it amplifies the development of angulation, footwork and the practicality of learning to defend against stick and knife attacks. Doesn't seem to be sinking in. What do you instructors say to "sell" people on FMA (vs. Empty-hand arts) to newbies or people form other arts? Have you ever encountered students who were willing to learn stick techniques but hesitant to learn knife techs for ethical reasons? Me: As a Kajukenbo and FMA instructor, I find that if I explain to my students that Escrima is a complete system which covers long, middle and close range methods of fighting, with or without a weapon, close minds begin to open and people are more willing to investigate. Once they start their training, they (usually) become ardent students. I firmly believe that if the instructor is enthused about his art, those around him or her can't help but become a little currious. Incidentally, please check out my Sifu Jay Cabauatan's web site (my instructor) in The Cabauatan System of Escrima at: http://www.cmaministry.com/cabauatan/cabauatan.htm May God Richly Bless You All, Sifu Brian T. Henderson Head Instructor Christian Martial Arts Ministry www.cmaministry.com ------------------------------ From: Kalki Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:10:20 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Sotis' Website > interested in the art of knifefighting to take a look at the web site @ > www.knifighting.com. I am sure as this site grows it will be a very good > way to stay connected to blade related seminars around the world. > Tried the above URL ... outcome = failure.. Tried www.knifefighting.com ... outcome = success. Be well, Mik ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:09:26 -0800 Subject: eskrima: John Clements >Thanks for the information regarding this. I believe Mr. Clements should >be commended for having the open mind to mingle with FMAs and also realise >when his info was in error. At the Mardi Gras Camp John Clements referred to a current evolution of his understanding vs. some of his early writings. I did not specify the HACA article, which I have not read (is there an online site for this?) and to which he did not refer specifically either. One thing I recall was that whatever relationship exists between FMA and Spanish swordsmanship is more akin to cut and thrust rather than rapier, and that swashbuckling conquistadores would have been less likely to have brought the latter to warfare in the jungles. >4. For the record: the sole "Western student" who stayed to attend >on Monday has no connection or relationship to myself or HACA, is in no >way affiliated with us outside of his own private pursuits, and actually >has more Asian training than any thing legitimately "Western". >Anything he said or did for good or ill has no reflection on us or our >knowledge whatsoever. The gentleman in question here had, as I recall, very little Asian martial arts training, and was primarily involved with SCA activities. Jeff "Stickman" Finder stickman@autobahn.org ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:23:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #80 *************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.