From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #81 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Thurs, 25 Feb 1999 Vol 06 : Num 081 In this issue: eskrima: Comparison of styles eskrima: Re: Elbows eskrima: we are fogies eskrima: Kenpo and FMA eskrima: Felicissimo Dizon, Doce Pares and holy Mount Banahaw and Illustrisimo Re: eskrima: Felicissimo Dizon, Doce Pares and holy Mount Banahaw and eskrima: Re: elbows eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #80 eskrima: email change eskrima: Re: Doce Pares of Laguna Cont. eskrima: RE: Hernia eskrima: Re:HACA site eskrima: Training elbows eskrima: Correction about Tom Sotis website eskrima: Re: Clements eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1050 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:29:54 +0800 Subject: eskrima: Comparison of styles >I think that you've got a good strategy here. I've got about 15 years in Vee >Ju Jitsu (which is my core art) before getting in Modern Arnis (for about a >year now). The nice thing about having Vee JJ as a core art is that many of >the principles/concepts are quite similar to what is found in Modern Arnis, >which has made my transition into Modern Arnis much easier than I had thought. >I was quite fortunate to find Modern Arnis as my instructor (Daniel McConnell) >is practically a neighbor of mine. Never did I think that I would find an FMA >school in Ohio. I think that it's a good strategy to use Modern Arnis (or any >other FMA) as a base art and master it first before investigating other arts. >The thing that you want to avoid is to become the jack of all trades and >master of none. > >Take care >Brian Johns >Columbus Ohio >billyja695@aol.com Dear Mr. Johns: Thanks for your inputs. Could you please let me know a bit of your instructor, and how he teaches, particularly what he emphasizes in his lessons and workouts. Are they tournament- or combat-oriented? Does he emphasize disarms, etc. I've been practicing for just over a year, too, and maybe we can discuss what kind of instruction is given there compared to what we get here. I have worked out with many Modern Arnis instructors, ranging from Lakan Isa (1st Dan) to Lakan Lima (5th), and I have found each teach differently, with only the numbering system and nomenclature the same. By the way, my e-mail address is gino@mnl.sequel.net Regards, Gino Arnis Student, Philippines ------------------------------ From: "Todd D. Ellner" Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:42:14 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Re: Elbows Ray sez: >The one thing I've seen with elbows is that they are sometimes taught >more like a forearm block in (American) football (a 'flipper'). This type >of movement isn't nearly as powerful as a properly thrown elbow, e.g. a >muay Thai elbow. We have a lot of trouble with that in our self defense class. We are doing more Bukti Negara/Sera elbows which are thrown a little shorter than even the Thai elbows. A couple of things which help: o On vertical elbows stress "touch your ear with your hand" or "comb your hair" o On horizontal elbows stess "back of the hand to the opposite ear" (aka the Count Dracula Maneuver) o Make them stand closer to the target. Lots of times if they are football-blocking it is because they are too far away and have to lean and extend the strike to reach what they are hitting o From the very beginning emphasize that it's powered by the waist and legs, not the arm o If all else fails throw a (light) hook to the appropriate ear with the other focus mitt when they do it wrong I haven't actually stopped to tying bungee cords to anyone's arms yet, but it has been a near thing sometimes. ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:43:41 EST Subject: eskrima: we are fogies from: leighans@aol.com yes we are the old people in fornt of the barbershop complaining about what is wrong with the world and our community.....and that is all we sound like we are doing.......we love to sit and spout theory and expound upon our precious words we have spake......we have this fear of injury(not all is needless) and also seem to have a fear of actually using our arts for what they were meant to be used for....instead we content ourselves with our petty little tournaments with this rule or that rule, all the while telling ourselves how we are going for the most realistic trial short of a real fight....i will never deny or belittle someones skill.....but to try and tell people you know how to defend yourself when all you have done is just practice in class or maybe a tournament, is nothing more than a lie...i am not advocating looking for fights or becoming bullies.......but how can you honestly tell somebody the technique works, if you dont know for yourself?.......you can give me stats on tkd deaths....big deal.....we all can produce stats for any type of death we want....if all you are looking for is another version of the game tag, then so be it...just dont try to mislead others by saying you practice a 'martial' art....you just practice a game....because that is all you see it as...it becomes a 'martial' art when you practice it with that frame of mind....you respond how you train....sound familiar?.....one final note....knowledge is a tool like a hammer or pliers....it is neither good nor evil....only the person using it is....we should not keep secret techniques......it only hurts the art........leighan ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:18:20 EST Subject: eskrima: Kenpo and FMA Personally I've been to several Kenpo seminar's (Parkers systerm) That have included FMA in the programs. Even in the non thriving martial arts metropolis of Indiana and Ohio area's. Having a background in both arts, I think they flow very well together. Barb alias Baglady( customized FMA stickbags) ------------------------------ From: "JYCHOW.AU.ORACLE.COM" Date: 25 Feb 99 14:28:30 +1100 Subject: eskrima: Felicissimo Dizon, Doce Pares and holy Mount Banahaw and Illustrisimo > > Also a history questions: I heard that Felicimo Dizon was a member of the > secret Doce Pares Society that was centered in Laguna, not the one in Cebu. > Anyone else know anything about this? > I am not sure, but in all probability, it was the Doce Pares of Cebu that was refered to. This is because while Dionisio Canete says that Dizon was unknown in his circle of eskrimadors within and outside Doce Pares, he said his father mentioned that Dizon did attend the Doce Pares meetings, but always as a by-stander and never fought. I have this interview on video tape, and it was witnessed by his nephew-in-law and an eskrimador from Hong Kong. = Cacoy Canette was supposed to have mentioned that Dizon was a rival to Doring Saavedra in Doce Pares. Whatever it really means, this statement is = to be pursued by a member of this list when he has a chance to interview Cacoy Canette next. Cacoy also mentioned of himself and Delpine Lopez arranging to meet Dizon for a duel which somehow did not eventuate because somebody failed to turn up for the appointment. It is also said that when Angel Cabales met Cacoy, he told Cacoy that his master was Dizon and Dizon was also a member of Doces Pares. I have an email from a relative of the Canette family to this effect. Note this! So, I conclude that Dizon is known to the old guard of the Doce Pares, was sort of a rival to Saavedra, did attend Doce Pares meetings/fights, but did = not fight there and was not an office bearer. He thus had connections to the Doce Pares, but was kept out of the organisation (maybe thru the charisma and 'interference' of the Saavedra brothers). Thus, the Doce Pares refered to is the one in Cebu. In any case, Dizon comes from Carca in Cebu!!!!!!! In short, it all points to the Doce Pares of Cebu that Cabales was talking about. Claims by Cabale's student that Cabales said Dizon was from Doce Pares can be verified independently because theat statement was repeated to Cacoy. I conclude the students were syaing what they heard. I think the latest round of rumour must have been propelled by the fact that there was a claim (from Angel Cabales himself?) that Dizon was at one time the head of the Doce Pares. Dizon was never an office bearer in the Doce Pares organisation (proven by legal documents), much less the leader. = Then we hear of the Doce Pares in Luzon area (in particular the Laguna area since the source of that came from that area). So, trying to make some sense of the contradiction, some people may have made some assumptions that = the Doce Pares that Dizon was head of must be the one in Laguna. This is a guess at best. I wonder whether the Doce Pares in Laguna and other areas of Philippines are an actual organisation, or just a term refering to those eskrimadors playing in the moro-moro dances etc. More of a movement than an actual oraganisation. Similar to the Chinese opera Kung Fu people. ie. Not an actual group, but a collective term for people who are involved in the movement. I have the impression that this Doce Pares was in existence long before Dizon came to Manila. I may be wrong here.......... Anybody has actual legal documents to prove this was an actual organisation, and its office bearers? David Reyes wrote:- >Stories of the legendary Doce Pares Society can still be heard from the >"Apo Lakays" who reside around Mt. Banahaw. The Doce Pares' exploits on >the mountain are revered. In particular events taken place at Kuwebas ng >Diyos Ama, an area that has much significance to the escrimador. > There is a book published in Philippines called 'Agapito Illustrisimo - a Banahaw Guru'. Written by a Roman Catholic priest reporting to the church = about the Christian cults based on native mysticism. and where to report other than Philippines most sacred Mount Banahaw. The priest states that at the time of writing, there were still 6 spiritual communites on the mountain. Don't know why he chose to write on Agapito Illustrisimo who founded one of them. Agapito was the grand uncle of Antonio 'Tatang' Illustrisimo of Kali Illustrisimo. Agapito obtained his mystic powers from his grandfather on the later's strange mystical death. The Illustrisimo clan is Aeta in origin, and had been a mystical and warrior family to as long as 'no one really knows when it started'. Agapito was part of the failed KKK against the Spaniards. A wanted man, he was eventually caught and hung and shot up so badly that his body, beyond= recognition, was left dangling fron the tree in pieces. Yet, years later, = the captain of the firing squad was shocked to met him in the street! The captain, fearful of Agapito's reputation, had personally inspected the body and added more shots in to make sure this undesireable Filipino rebel will never trouble the colonial masters again. This phenomena happened several times in Agapito's tumultuous life. Died and buried. But survived years later - reason - UNKNOWN. The exploits of Agapito Illustrisimo in the book are so strange and mystical that one would be left gaping. It is like a fairy tale of the very great Padma Sambhava, founder of Buddhism in Tibet. Existing in different places = at the same time, restoring the dead to life, flying around the mountain and penetrating the solid mountain with other mystics (from the other communities). This was written, not by a martial artist, by by a priest who was at first sent to investigate and crucify the movement, but had a change of heart after his strange experiences. No martial arts contents. The community started by Agapito Illustrisimo was headed by his grand daughter at the time of writing. If anybody wants to get this book, just yell. I believe I caught a glimpse = of it in my disorganised library a few weeks ago. By the way, David, by Doces Pares, did you mean the people doing all those moro moro dances, mystics, and all those similar types who practiced their native arts of combat, mystic, religion, dances .....etc undercover? You refer to "The Doce Pares' exploits on the mountain are revered" implying the Doces Pares are living there. Not Doce Pares organisation, but Doce Pares people? Like a generic term? Somebody on the list like GM Gat Puno Abon Baet from Laguna may have some more tales................... Cheers! John Chow ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:16:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: eskrima: Felicissimo Dizon, Doce Pares and holy Mount Banahaw and > Cacoy also mentioned of himself and Delpine Lopez arranging to meet Dizon > for a duel which somehow did not eventuate because somebody failed to turn > up for the appointment. Cacoy mentioned to me that Dizon was never a member of the Cebu DP group. He knew of Dizon, heard great things about Dizon, but Dizon had moved to Manila before Cacoy got a chance to meet him. Cacoy mentioned that a rumor circled that Dizon was to return to Cebu for a visit, so Cacoy trained and trained in order to 'workout with' Dizon. That workout/duel never occurred as Dizon didn't make it back to Cebu. Cacoy didn't give a reason as to why. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: jmfrankl Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 00:02:17 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: elbows > As far as >sparring with elbows goes, the only thing that I can think of >would be to wear boxing-style headgear and a mouthpiece and deal >with the damage... You'd be dealing with considerable damage--like lots of cuts if you are lucky and broken noses and cheek bones if not. Paul Vunak and gang seem to favor a motorcycle helmet--okay for receiver but perhaps less than safe for giver? I have used FIST headgear with good results, though a 16 stitch cut still "happened" through this considerable protection. The problem with both of the above "helmets" (and perhaps the Doce Pares-style headgear) is, due to the lack of external cuts and bruises, people don't mind being hit in the head. Aside from the already much discussed problems of this being a bad idea in combat, I would like to add another point. It seems to me--perhaps Mik and others could give actual medical implications--that having your brain bounce around the inside of your hard skull is much more damaging than a broken nose or cut. This means it is the shock/force of getting hit that should be avoided--precisely what the motorcycle helmet type drills encourage and so do not avoid--more than the occasional scrapes and black-eyes. Thoughts? John ------------------------------ From: jmfrankl Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 00:09:30 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #80 >The one thing I've seen with elbows is that they are sometimes taught >more like a forearm block in (American) football (a 'flipper'). This type >of movement isn't nearly as powerful as a properly thrown elbow, e.g. a >muay Thai elbow. > >Ray Terry >raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com True Ray. Just as anyone can swing a stick yet not be doing FMA, so can they throw elbows. But it seems--as one might learn to use a stick from an FMA teacher or to grapple from a teacher who specializes in that range of combat--one would do well to look to the Thais for certain (though certainly not all) insights into training and using the elbow effectively. I think this is the third time I've said this but after 6 trips to Thailand and training in several camps I have NEVER (sorry to shout) seen the elbow used in sparring or even slow 2-man drills. Bags and pads only. I think this is a good idea when working any power at all, but would add that Filipino and Indonesian MAs have a variety of good drills for working flow and precision. John ------------------------------ From: Terrio Echavez Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:19:40 -0800 Subject: eskrima: email change Hello, My email has changed from terrio@nettaxi.com to terrio@thehelm.com because I am using an alias terrio@thehelm to forward to alibataatpandesal@alibataatpandesal.com. In essence, since alibataatpandesal.com has its own POP email server: alibataatpandesal.com, I opted to use it. Best regards, Terrio Echavez ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 01:09:45 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Doce Pares of Laguna Cont. In a message dated 2/23/99 9:16:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-digest- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Also a history questions: I heard that Felicimo Dizon was a member of the secret Doce Pares Society that was centered in Laguna, not the one in Cebu. Anyone else know anything about this? >> Hello, I am sorry to keep you waiting for the continuation of the Doce Pares in Laguna. Bundok ng Banahaw is the only place where all eskrimadores was free to do what they wanted to do. They test their skill in different ways, Masters of Serrada, would fight VS Largo Mano stylist and vice versa. Largo Mano Stylist would fight to the Herrada Stylist some of this gentlemen has Anting-anting but this is the only time they cannot used their Amulet or Talisman because is belief in Good Friday not effective no power. According to my Father GMaster Felipe "Garimot" Baet the Doce Pares was Founded in early 1800's was stop during Fil-Spanish War and then re-group After Treaty of Paris on 1898 stop again during Fil-American War until 1900, finally where Re-group and keep the Original name Doce Pares on 1920 by a group of Eskrimador headed by Lumban Arnis Association. Masters of Arnis around the countries are welcome to participate in this annual test. With the rules of the Original Book of Doce Pares, adapted in the old book Doce Pares de Francia. The Doce Pares in Laguna is consisting the Twelve Cardinal Strike, Twelve Stances and Footworks, Twelve Defense and counters, Twelve Disarming and Twelve Major Joint Lock. etc. The testing start at 3:p.m. every Good Friday until 6:00 p.m. time for Prayer for their orasyon and their demonstration of skills in way of Caranza, Carenza, Halad, Alay or Pamamaltacia. Dance like movements that the gracefull and artistic techniques of Eskrima was presented in a shadow Stick or Bolo Dance. The Older Eskrimador I met last July has knowledge in whom from other masters of Doce Pares still alive in Laguna. I also asked if anyone of the name like Dizon, Villabrille, Ilustrisimo and others names that known in the book of masters af Arnis that Edgar Sulite has wrote, he said some of the name is famialiar especially Dizon because a lot Dizon in Batanngas and Rizal, but he is not sure if is the same man at one time became the King of Doce Pares means he wins to all matches. There's no written History but you can almost put the history together if this Masters are together they can talk all day long what their experience in Doce Pares gathering. who knows Cabales and Dizon might come across Laguna and join to this type of gathjering but sometimes a lot of masters used fighting name not their own real name that why is hard to get the pieces of the history together. Anyway if anyone wanted to learn more about the Doce Pares E-mail me okey at Gatpuno@aol.com I hope it help to those people looking for answer to the true meaning of Doce Pares and History in Laguna. Gumagalang ng Lubos/with great respect Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation ------------------------------ From: "Jeffrey Monaghan" Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:52:58 -0800 Subject: eskrima: RE: Hernia F.Y.I. A hernia is a weak area in the wall of the abdomen where part of the intestines push through and bulge out. This bulging can occur into the groin or abdomen area. It can be the size of your thumb or pinky finger or quite significant (the worst case I seen was about the size of a softball that had pushed through into the scrotum (your ball sack, Ouch). Usually they are quite painful and are very serious because they can tear and become larger, interfere with normal function, become inflamed, etc. If you suspect that you may have a hernia please call your doctor and make an appt. to get it checked out as soon as possible. Jeff Monaghan ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:56:41 EST Subject: eskrima: Re:HACA site In a message dated 2/24/99 7:20:24 PM, you wrote: <>JF http://www.thehaca.com/essays/influenc.htm - --Rafael-- ------------------------------ From: "Kevin Blake" Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 07:29:40 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Training elbows Regarding training elbows, and elbow sparring, I believe the best way to train is what we used to do at my old school. When we sparred one person would put on a motorcycle helmet and boxing gloves and come after the other guy, who wore only bag gloves (small school - could only afford one motorcycle helmet). The guy wearing bag gloves would also wear elbow pads. During the course of a two to three minute round there would be at least one or two opportunities to get in some elbow shots, usually a flurry of elbows. I trained Muay Thai for almost two years prior to doing these "motorcycle" drills. I can tell you from experience that the feel of elbowing a moving target (the opponent's head) is much more satisfying than hitting a stationary Thai pad. Of course, the helmet is a whole lot harder too. Kevin M. Blake ------------------------------ From: "Steven Lefebvre" Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:26:29 PST Subject: eskrima: Correction about Tom Sotis website Thanks to Kalki(Mik) for correcting my mistake in the knifefighting website. The correct URL is www.knifefighting.com. We have just finished our 4th, 4 hour knife seminar with Master Sotis. As always it was fantastic. Although Master Sotis is not well known in the "media" he is very well known in specific circles. He has a high endorsement from Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje for his skills(including Dagaso Tirsia), and has trained with many notable martial artist. Including; Jerson Nene Tortal(I attended his 2 day seminar last year, awesome!), Chris Sayoc, David Gould, Greg Alland, and I also believe Edgar Sulite(don't quote me on that one). Train hard, it is the way! Steve ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 04:35:55 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Clements Clements wrote: <<2. Modern sport fencers (foil, epee, sabres) have little in common >with the Renaissance swordsmanship practiced by HACA and myself, let >alone the Medieval methods. In comparison to the real historical >methods, sport weapons are virtually toys used with an exceedingly >limited and artificial set of techniques and rule-bound actions. They >do not train in, practice, or use a fraction of the close-in techniques >the actual historical methods teach us.>> I really wouldn't call what the guys on the Olympic fencing team do with sport weapons as "virtual toys"... but I do agree that the space and movement are limited. In his prime, I still wouldn't want to face Westbrook in a blade to blade encounter. Sabre fencing can still be dangerous as when Westbrook's coach 's sword tip broke off in his throat during training . Clements underestimates the interest of FMAs in Western study... maybe not HIS western study (he's just not widely available outside of limited seminars and 2 books)but this very list has posted showings and exhibitions of Western Medieval methods (rare books in museums etc.) in the past. Some here have been members of the Hammerstag Verlag Newsletter etc. As much as we have not seen his Western version of cut and thrust - neither has he seen the plethora of diverse styles and systems in the FMAs. >3. I felt that rather than having had some "revision of my opinion" as seems to have been erroneously suggested by someone who did not attend, I actually believe the very opposite occurred.>> I don't know who Clements is refering to here- is it Jeff Finder's comments? He was there wasn't he? If it were mine- I was just going by what those who attended wrote here and it was in the manner of an inquiry not a suggestion. Clements comments here do not seem to coincide with what others have posted. << It was finally possible for FMA>stylists to have a greater grasp of many of the very points the essay >was making and comprehend the information it provided with far greater >depth, and as a result acquire greater respect for the martial culture >of each --the very goal I set out to achieve. >> It doesn't seem to be rocket science that what Clements is speaking of is akin to the thread with what we have going on currently when folks ask if FMAs is only about learning to use sticks. It seems to me that FMAs would be the FIRST to see the real practicalities of the Western cut and thrust technique. We're accustomed to answering similar questions ourselves about our art. I think Clements will have more difficulty convincing his own western counterparts. Where is Clements getting this data from that FMAs do not acknowledge Spanish influence? I believe the problems most Filipinos and others had about Clements' essay is his quick acceptance to use one book as the end all and be all of Filipino historical data. That's the section of his essay which needs revision- nothing to do with technique but research. Respectfully, - --Rafael-- ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 05:42:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #81 *************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.