From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #82 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Thurs, 25 Feb 1999 Vol 06 : Num 082 In this issue: eskrima: elbows and head protection eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #79 eskrima: New FMA forum eskrima: Tag Re: eskrima: Tag eskrima: Re: Clements, HACA, et. all eskrima: knowing/helmets/Dizon eskrima: ED v6 #76 eskrima: Re: elbows eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #80 eskrima: Clements eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1050 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jay_Swan@flannet.middlebury.edu (Jay Swan) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:04:56 -0500 Subject: eskrima: elbows and head protection John writes >I have used FIST headgear with good results, though a 16 >stitch cut still "happened" through this considerable protection. IMO FIST headgear is not adequate for hard elbows--heck, I'm not sure anything is adequate for a really good elbow. I've had my bell rung more than once from elbows while wearing a FIST suit, and I don't have all that much experience with it. A number of my friends have been knocked out. We always remind students *not* to do full-power elbows to the head, and to be especially careful with shots to the back of the head where the helmet doesn't provide as much protection. Wearing a cervical collar with the head gear helps, but it reduces your mobility significantly. Last weekend I was experimenting with integrating striking and grappling while wearing FIST headgear (NHB style), and it seemed perfectly good for that, as long as we kept our strikes under control. Jay ------------------------------ From: Daniel Mcconnell Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:09:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #79 Hello to all, I am the Daniel McConnell to whom Brian Johns was refering to in Ohio, particularly Columbus. I teach Modern Arnis (Remy) as well as a few other styles. I must agree that Ohio does not have as many FMA as many other states do. I have mentioned this on the list once before. I usually lurk but if a friend/student can post, I should too :) I am aware of a few other FMA teachers in Ohio such Tony Marcial of the pangasinan style and a couple others, a couple. But how true, "it ain't like California" , of course there's no place quite like THAT place. :) Daniel McConnell Modern Arnis of Ohio ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:34:08 -0600 Subject: eskrima: New FMA forum Hello all! I am sure many of you may be aware of this but for those of you who may not there is a new FMA forum on the web. Check out www.knifeforums.com. Very good information on knives and fighting in general. Now there is a sub-forum there specific to FMA. Dr. Barber, I have to rescind my post on the 4" knife law. I have searched many times over to find the source of this statement to no avail. It is pretty clear that I was incorrect in making this statement. My apologies to all on the list. Regards, Glenn ------------------------------ From: Kalki Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 07:58:38 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Tag > you can give me > stats on tkd deaths [etc.] > Leighan ol'pal, what's the point here? Martial is martial, fighting is fighting, respect is respect. Reading this post I was unclear as to who/what you were responding to and what point you were trying to make. Just want to know what you're getting at. Insofar as tkd is concerned, I guarantee you that there are plenty of tkd masters/grandmasters who have faced much more berserk hell than any of us have ever faced on the streets. This commercial venue that some of them may have sponsored is no worse than the commercial store-front rip-off "churches" that claim to save souls ... but it would be a waste of our time (and probably more troublesome) for us to go around pointing fingers at them as not "real religion" eh? I like to encourage generalized respect. For example, re: tkd "players" ... one of my teachers was ROK Special Forces, served 2 tours in Vietnam. he is the second source from whom I heard of how units like his were repeatedly called in by Americans to retake something that the Americans had lost to the VC. First source was American (one of my sibs) who like one of my other sibs before him did two tours in SE Asia as gyrenes. They had a great appreciation for the ROKs and told of how they interacted with the US Army (as previously mentioned). One of my Korean teachers told me of how some ROK Special Forces worked for the US Govt and had to account for ammunition spent. Once they went through a village and lost one of their guys ... they decided to wipe the village out ... US controllers said no, not to use a single round ... so, tkd boys all, they took out their knives and "cleared" the village ... no B.S. You probably would not want to talk to this tkd grandmaster, he shared this story with me over lunch and then said "Americans are wusses." How about that? I wondered, "Either he doesn't think of me as an American or I've just been royally insulted." Well, if he thought I was a wuss he probably wouldn't have had me working for him at the time. he aslo related a story about an episode from his time in presidential security work. They captured 3 N Koreans and offered them a "match" before they would be taken to jail (I think he cleaned it up, probably meant "before they would be killed, they don't B.S., y'know?") The N Koreans fought 3 S Koreans. Two of the S Koreans were killed outright ... they were tournament champions. The N Koreans were not, capiche? I once met a Korean master who teaches in N Dakota. During his demo he looked straight at me, then proceeded to slice his hand through three cement slabs, ridgehand, like butter man, just like butter. No shouting, no wind up, just "swish" (nothing but strings :-) he then went on to perform "animal control" by putting a duck to sleep, first saying "I nevuh hurt da duck." After he did his thing the duck stopped wrestling around in his hands and laid motionless on the floor after he put it down and walked away ... jumped up squawking after about a minute (talk about knockouts). NEway, these are two examples of killers who can walk the walk. Little TKD guys who can put their hands thru cement, etc. without blinking an eye. If they can do that to cement, they can do that to somebody's head. They don't talk tough ... very gentle guys IMHO, don't brag or talk any "trash" nor do they trash what anyone else does, including some Americans who are usually a little more commercial than they (kinda funny to here one of them call their American business competitors boys though). One of the most formidable martial masters that I have ever seen was a little Korean in N Virginia who retired from teaching in about 1977. When I spoke with him he directed me to one of his friends whom he described as "still teaching seriously." That "teaching seriously" is something worth noting. Teaching seriously differentitated from teaching commercially. As one guy put it, "If you teach the real thing they'll put you out of business." Now there are full contact TKD competitions. Fighting is fighting, just as Euro-knife/sword has sharp edges no less sharp than ones we might use in practicing Kali/Eskrima/etc. Be careful ... and consider that Bruce Lee was very good friends with a Korean TKD master with whom he had considerable correspondence, Jhoon Rhee. It was a Korean master who encouraged me to see martial systems as a circle, a valuable perspective. Hey, as another example, Hee Il-Cho ain't no slouch friend. There are many others like him, maybe even better, that we don't know anything about, Koreans and non-Koreans alike. Respecting all life and the universe which allows it ... Be well, Mik ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 07:41:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: eskrima: Tag > > you can give me > > stats on tkd deaths [etc.] > > > Leighan ol'pal, what's the point here? Martial is martial, fighting is > fighting, respect is respect. Reading this post I was unclear as to > who/what you were responding to and what point you were trying to make. > Just want to know what you're getting at. Insofar as tkd is concerned, > I guarantee you that there are plenty of tkd masters/grandmasters who > have faced much more berserk hell than any of us have ever faced on the > streets. This commercial venue that some of them may have sponsored is > no worse than the commercial store-front rip-off "churches" that claim > to save souls ... but it would be a waste of our time (and probably more > troublesome) for us to go around pointing fingers at them as not "real > religion" eh? I like to encourage generalized respect. For example, > re: tkd "players" ... one of my teachers was ROK Special Forces, served > 2 tours in Vietnam. [snip] I agree that Leighan wasn't very clear in his post, but I doubt he was disrespecting any of the Korean martial arts. If he was, then he is sorely confused as to the extreme effectiveness of Taekwondo, Tang Soo Do, Hapkido, etc. in the hands (and feet) of a warrior. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Peter A. Kautz" Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:47:21 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Clements, HACA, et. all Howdy all! Having talked to John many times in the past, and knowing how easily people can be mis-understood in writing, I just wanted to make a few relevant points for all interested. 1)While not having a deep knowledge of the FMA, John is quick to see their application for real fighting. His students have often said to me in the past that "if you need to know how to fight in a parking lot, FMA would be a best bet" He had the HIGHEST of praise for the instructors at the Mardi Gras camp, and thought it was a great learning experience. 2)When he and other people on the HACA Forum have made "goofs" on the technical aspects of FMA (ie. we don't thrust much), I've been quick to point these errors out, and people there were interested in what we realy do - quick to drop their assumptions and learn something. 3)His writing often comes across as realy opinionated, but hey - that's why we read books - to get peoples opinions! I think that under it all is a lot of scholarship and years of work. For people out there interested in this material, I realy recomend stopping by the HACA web sight. Lots of rare, FREE material there ranging from artwork depicting battles, to fighting texts and quicktime movies of techniques. Pete Kautz ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:49:10 -0800 Subject: eskrima: knowing/helmets/Dizon >but how can you honestly tell somebody the technique works, if you dont >know for yourself? There are many ways to know. It has been said that a wise man learns from the experience of others. My teacher fought extensively on the street, as did his teacher, so I know the material was battle tested. Sometimes when he taught he'd even recreate fights to show how the technique had worked. Thus I trusted his information. Later, feedback from students I had trained, especially cops and females, demonstrated that what I had passed on was indeed effective against dangerous opponents on the street. Though my own lifestyle has been relatively peaceful, the time I spent doing security in a major stadium validated my training. While this added to my own confidence, the fact is I trusted my teachers experiences foremost, which is why I went to them to gain the knowledge they were willing to share. Of course, blindly following a teacher can be a dangerous fault, as most of us have seen or experienced; one must keep the eyes open, and actively question and test what is given. In other words, keep the bs filters on .... >(small school - could only afford one motorcycle helmet) Try garage sales, flea markets or swap meets. You should be able to get an old helmet cheap. Most bikers have discarded helmets in their garage. Ask one sometime when they are putting on their gear in a parking lot. Maybe you can get a freebee. You don't need current DOT/SNELL ratings or shiny and new. I don't recall ever hearing Angel say Dizon was head of any Doce Pares organization. If anything, Dizon sounds more like a loner, some kind of wandering warrior, not an administrator. The roots of Serrada, as I was taught, come from Cebu, but Angel and Dizon came together in Manila, and both men travelled extensively, though Angel's path took him from the Philipines at a relatively early age. Anything adding substantive information to the life of Dizon would be welcome, but as has been seen on this Digest previously, much is mythologized (not helped by some current writers!) or simply lost in time. Jeff "Stickman" Finder stickman@autobahn.org ------------------------------ From: lee yow ching Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 01:15:23 +0800 (MYT) Subject: eskrima: ED v6 #76 in ED v6 #76 Medicine Man Mik wrote: >On the bright side of it, perhaps delving into some specs can help some realize that the mumbo-jumbo that gets tossed around in a gym from the latest magazine story may not be the line to listen to. Sorta like the high protein diet fad that som eMDs >have been pushing ... lo and behold dey give de'people de'gout :-) By 'high protein diet fad' I assume that you meant the Atkins and Zone type diets, the characteristics of which are high protein, medium fat and low carb. I have friends who have tried the Atkins diet and it works for them. Proponents of such diets claim that they are not harmful. Mik, obviously don't agree. Would you please enlighten me on the drawbacks/adverse effects of such dietary practices? I understand that this is a forum on Filipino Martail Arts so if Ray prefers, we could take this private. Thanks in advance. Regards and respect, Mel Penang, Malaysia. ------------------------------ From: Cory Andrew Eicher Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:59:05 -0600 (Central Standard Time) Subject: eskrima: Re: elbows >The problem with both of the above "helmets" (and perhaps the >Doce Pares-style headgear) is, due to the lack of external cuts >and bruises, people don't mind being hit in the head. You are absolutely correct in this... it's ok to take a punch to the top of the skull once or twice while you are in the process of closing with someone, but continual pounding in practice leads to some unfortunate results (Mohammed Ali as an example). With this in mind it seems evident that we should try to avoid either pounding or getting pounded in the head as much as possible, to prevent eventual lifetime brain damage. On the other hand, very little encourages me to keep my guard up then getting smacked in the noggin... Just my opinions... Cory ============================================ Have you seen my garden? It is most peculiar, Nothing there that grows looks anything at all like plants, I hear their voices... -Danny Elfman, "Whole Day Off" ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:00:53 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #80 Clements is not well regarded in the "world" of Western fencing, nor in the stage combat orbit. The primary issue involves whether one parries with the flat or edge of a blade, and the controversy free-wheeled from there. (In my opinion, far in excess of what Clements deserved, if indeed he is wrong. Clements dismissal of a Western fencer being more Asian based in the art might be part of all that.) In that context, I'm not surprised his knowledge of FMA is, to be kind, incomplete. Clements does have a Web site, and it's not uninteresting. Back posts on the Rapier and Stage Combat mailing lists (among others) discuss Clements knowledge of Western fencing in considerable depth and assassination of character. JB ------------------------------ From: Andrew Johnson Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:39:32 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Clements "Clements underestimates the interest of FMAs in Western study... maybe not HIS western study (he's just not widely available outside of limited seminars and 2 books)but this very..." Rafael, I would have emailed you privetely to ask this, but your address did not appear on your message. Do you have the names of Clements books (proferably a ISBN or source as well). ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:26:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #82 *************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. 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