From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #84 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Fri, 26 Feb 1999 Vol 06 : Num 084 In this issue: eskrima: Midwestern FMA eskrima: HACA essay eskrima: duuuhhh? eskrima: still...gee..i dunno... eskrima: diet eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #83 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #83 eskrima: rib injury eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #83 eskrima: Re:knife to throat eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1050 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:32:02 EST Subject: eskrima: Midwestern FMA From: Matt I've noticed the recent string of encouragement over the number of filipino martial arts instructors in the midwest... I am in Iowa--THE heartland of the midwest--and am bitterly alone when it comes to certified FMA instructors within a six hour drive (St. Louis, Minneapolis, Chicago). Know of any I might consider in the Des Moines or Cedar Rapids area? Thanks, Matt ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:34:16 -0800 Subject: eskrima: HACA essay Having finally gotten around to viewing the HACA essay on Spanish influence in the FMA, I read it several times and found myself going from agreement to annoyance. For the sake of everyone's sanity (mine no less than yours, since you only have to read this, but in writing it I have to sit here and think about it) I will endeavor to keep this as brief as possible (believe it or not!). On the surface Johen Clements makes some good points about the prowess of Western swordsmanship. I, for one, would never consider Spanish fighters of the mid 1500's to be any less deadly than their counterparts elsewhere. In fact, coming off of decades of rape and plunder in the New World, these conquistadors were world-class killers, no doubt worthy of the pirate label supposedly ascribed to them by indiginous Filipinos. Their technological edge in weaponry no doubt surpassed most of what was available to the locals, particularly in metallurgy for blades and armor, to say nothing of firearms. While these are valid points, what bothered me about this essay is the broad brush with which it paints martial artists, and especially FMA'ers, who are among the most eclectic practitioners extant. By taking one book by an author with whom many of us have problems and using this person's work to measure all of us, is no less a caricature than that view of Western martial arts which he believes us to hold. Mark Wiley's work is full of discrepancies and overly broad, flavorful characterizations that have little merit save to embellish a history that, for lack of documentable evidence, would otherwise be bare reading. How, for instance, can he know that there were 1050 men with Lapu Lapu, and by what standard can he infer that the fighting methods of the kalistas were vastly superior to that of the Spaniards? Clements is right to point out that the Spanish ultimately succeeded in spite of numerical odds agains them, though I disagree that their political savvy in divide-and-conquer tactics played no part, and I think the effect of shipboard cannon on shoreline villages should not be overlooked! One thing that troubled me about the essay was the small discrepancies of verifiable points, much the same as bothered me in Wiley's work. For instance, Clements points to 1100 warriors with Lapu-Lapu, but Wiley used 1050 (at least in my edition!). Later, quotation marks sent me to Wiley's work to find the section being referenced, but it turns out the quotes were not verbatim. The same goes for dates that do not match the original text. As I have critiqued Wiley, so too here: If what I can see misses the mark, how do I trust the rest of the work to be any more accurate? I feel this is perhaps an unfortunate side effect of John Clements' zeal for his work, and obscures his otherwise interesting scholarship. JC finally makes the distinction between the probability of cut-and-thrust swordsmanship over rapier, which is where he is at his best. However, I think few of us view espada y daga as being from a particular system of Spanish swordsmanship; Wiley can dangle from his own assumptions in this matter. I would point out, however, that Spanish influence in the FMA did not end with conquest, but began there. While conquistadors of the late 16th century may have used cut-and-thrust, what choice of weaponry and tactics would have been used by Spanish gentry a century later? Clements makes his own point that the rapier was a civilian weapon, and it is through the socialization process that any crossover in this regard would take place. Also, we can see from Chinese history that while troops carried and trained with Dao, a heavy battlefield weapon, upper class commanders would use the Gim, a more rapier-like weapon. Perhaps the analogy applies. It is true that the FMA does not focus on thrusting nearly so much as slashing, and the battle weaponry of the region largely reflects this. The bottom line at this point, for me anyway, is that while Clements makes good points in this essay, many of them are valid only as critique of Wiley's work and do not reflect my opinion or, as seen in other posts on this digest, those of many others. If Wiley's characterizations seem simplistic in one direction, making a similar leap the other way in response is no less credible. As I tried to bring out in my essay for North Atlantic Books, the Philippines is one of the most culturally diverse and influenced places on earth. While the Spanish had an influence there, it is only one layer of an amazing tapestry woven of many cultures, rather than a defining key to the people or the place. Jeff "Stickman" Finder stickman@autobahn.org ------------------------------ From: tenrec Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 03:47:13 +0000 Subject: eskrima: duuuhhh? leighan wrote: >i am not advocating looking for fights or becoming bullies.... sorry I did not quite understand what you ARE advocating...explain further please...did not get the point exactly...you are against "sport" versions of MA's? >.one final note....knowledge is a tool like a hammer or pliers....it is neither good nor evil....only the person using it is....we should not keep secret techniques......it only hurts the art........ please feel free to share any secrets you may have with the ED...for the sake of saving the art... Medicine Man Mik responded to leighan: >There are many others like him, maybe even better, that we >don't know anything about, Koreans and non-Koreans alike. >Respecting all life and the universe which allows it To everything he wrote above that last line: Raht own! (P.S. if you have time could you email any other details you remember about the accounts you listed (on the Korean Army in Vietnam). I 'd like to compare them to some of the stories my own TSD instructor told me...tia) Rafael responded to Clements' letter: >I believe the problems most Filipinos and >others had about Clements' essay is his quick acceptance to use one book as >the end all and be all of Filipino historical data. That's the section of his >essay which needs revision- nothing to do with technique but research. Yeah. To which Peter A. Kautz responded with: >and knowing how easily people can be mis-understood in writing, Perhaps he should write more carefully...this also affects his effectiveness as a teacher... >When he and other people on the HACA Forum have made "goofs" on the >technical aspects of FMA Then they should have done a little more research before putting their opinions in "print"... >His writing often comes across as realy opinionated, but hey - that's why >we read books - to get peoples opinions! Can only speak for myself on this one, but I usually read to become INFORMED...if I wanted someone else's opinion, I'd give it to them. > I think that under it all is a >lot of scholarship and years of work. Then it is up to him to make the effort to present the material in an objective and academic manner...not soaked in Clements' personal opinions. If he cannot do this, perhaps he should write in collaboration with a more experienced writer. He is doing his art a terrible disservice if, instead of spreading the word of how great Western swordfighting is, he alienates a (potentially) significant part of his audience. After all, where would Marx have been had he not teamed up with the hottest pamphleteer at the time, Herr Engels? tenrec tenrec@avcorner.com ------------------------------ From: tenrec Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 04:07:40 +0000 Subject: eskrima: still...gee..i dunno... Lady Leighan wrote: >if you havent been able to verify(that means see for yourself, >firsthand) that something works or not, you are basing your explaination on >faith(that is the thingy you need for religion if you remember) and >.....faith may move mountains, but putting my defense >against an aggressor is not my idea of a test of faith....... Alas, milady, a sad truth...thats the only problem with learning anything that has to do with death and destruction: until you kill or destroy yourself, your NEVER really know...still... better than trying to perfect Kevorkian-do techniques first-hand...you can only do this once... >questioning is what brings about innovation, growth and even >improvement...try it sometime, it works wonders. So you're really saying is "question"...hmmm... tenrec tenrec@avcorner.com ------------------------------ From: Peter Sampogna Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:14:54 -0500 Subject: eskrima: diet There is no "working" animal (as opposed to "hunting" animal) that does not base its existence on carbo-providing foods. well being I lost 40lbs on atkins and feel great I will say this; Man has survived without carbohydrates for a long time on this planet. grains had to be harvested and stored, fruits were seasonal as were some of those starchy vegies. To each his own I say let everyone find their way. PS I love meat Pete going to flip a burger Sampogna ------------------------------ From: "Peter A. Kautz" Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:04:57 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #83 I guess what puzzles alot of us is >that from someone who speaks his opinions so outright, Mr. Clements would get >more mileage if he researched the other cultures before commenting on them >with such authority. Rafael - I can totaly agree here. It is frustrating to read something which you feel is valuable, yet is grating on your nerves at the same time. I read many of those essays and was just as ticked off on first reading as perhaps others feel. I could see the value of the information, but the way it was presented bothered me. I think that perhaps he is just trying so hard to diferentiate what he does from other practices that it comes off as condesending or what-not. This cross training with FMAs is a step forward although >I hear it more from others than from Clements himself . When I read something >from Clements himself about how the exchange with the FMAs has had a positive >effect on him on the HACA site then he will be doing alot to bury the previous >FMA essay. > Though not FMA specificaly, in a post-camp report on the Forum he goes in depth about how the BJJ training that was done there realy opened his eyes to the reality of that arena, and how looking at the period pictures of unarmed or weapon-grappling pictures from the old manuals now made more sense. Definately there is lots to be learned for us all in cross training - - secrecy and clannishness gets us nowhere. If you wanted to read the specifics of the post re: the camp just check the HACA Forum in the older messages (sorry I don't have the specific post # to give you) Pete Kautz ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 03:59:38 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #83 Ron Balicki in Seminar: Grand Junction, Colorado for two days, March 13th & 14th contact Troy at (970) 243-8010 High Desert Martial Arts Houston, Texas for two days, 20th & 21st Contact Alvis at (281) 540-8443 SOLIS MARTIAL ARTS ONLINE Check out my web page at Ron Balicki's Martial Arts Research System ------------------------------ From: Patrick Davies Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:45:01 -0000 Subject: eskrima: rib injury It seems I have either severely bruised or cracked one of the floating ribs on the left side. Anybody any advice on how to encourage healing. Any advice in general. pat Aberdeen, uk ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:02:55 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #83 In a message dated 99-02-25 22:03:56 EST, you write: << Well, you're probably wondering what does this have to do with Eskrima, right? Well, I've learned to get the hell out of dodge next time that happens... God forbid, I have to face off with someone of the Suro Inay, or Johnny Lacoste caliber! >> From Animal We have a saying which is "No Fear? Means you ain't been there." Bravo to the man who is brave enough to admit that running is sometimes the best means of survivial. ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:57:46 EST Subject: eskrima: Re:knife to throat In a message dated 2/25/99 10:04:24 PM, you wrote: <> I don't think you would have to worry about the knife being held at your throat, just the air escaping from it....;) Speaking of knife... There was a question earlier on where to train with Chris Sayoc so I wanted to pass along this info: Public seminars on Knife Encounters by Sayoc Kali's Chris Sayoc Sunday, March 7,1999 Nabi Su Martial Arts, 75 Eighth Avenue, NY, NY 10014 (14th Street and 8th Avenue) Schedule is 1:00pm - 2:30pm and 3:30pm - 6:00PM Contact: Mr. Patrick Consing at (914) 620-2420 RSVP If you are around this area, check out Tuhon Sayoc's knife seminar- it's an eye opener! - --Rafael-- ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:41:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #84 *************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. 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