From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #95 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Thurs, 4 March 1999 Vol 06 : Num 095 In this issue: eskrima: sinawalli eskrima: bambooing eskrima: Bolo's, Barongs, etc. eskrima: "Real Fighting" eskrima: Re: pogoing on ice eskrima: Re:guerillas eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #94 eskrima: Re: pc eskrima: Re: Making them miss eskrima: Re: "Real Fighting" author eskrima: Re: Making them miss the target eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1050 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bodnar, Stephen A" Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:33:50 -0500 Subject: eskrima: sinawalli Glad to see that there are people out there that have traind in the sinawalli system enough to understand it's usefullness. I agree with the fact: 1. drills are drills not all flow drills are for combat 2. footwork is very important and anyone just clicking sticks together is misssing the boat. 3. being able to mix and match patterns, in an instant takes time and training in the art. 4. many misunderstand that the use of just 2 stick is way out of line.. in fact panatukan [boxing] has sinawalli hand drills. If anyone is really interested in seeing a good curriculum for sinawalli try the Inayian sinawalli system. It only takes a few patterns to be learned well and then anyone can start creating their own patterns. the number of patterns in a system is not as important as being able to mirror the pattern, counter it using hi and lo strikes, using 1 hand right and 1 hand left counter, redondoing the movements, ect. ect. My $.02 worth steve bodnar kali/eskrima PGH PA. ------------------------------ From: "Virginia Martial Arts" Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:48:04 -0500 Subject: eskrima: bambooing Kevin wrote:<> Mike Zimmer's group from the Great White North does something cool called bambooing. Like to jump in here Mike? ------------------------------ From: "David W. Fulton" Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 14:01:06 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Bolo's, Barongs, etc. Greetings! I've been searching the web for sources of traditional style filipino weapons, but haven't turned anything other than Kris Cutlery and Visayan Legacy. I'd never heard of Visayan Legacy before, so I was wondering if anyone had any of their products and could give a review of them. I'd also appreciate any tips on other sources of traditional style weapons. I'd like to do a little comparing before I buy. Btw, I'm _not_ looking for display models or collectable antiques. In case anyone wants to check them out, here's Visayan Legacy's url: lugani.com/visayanlegacy/ TIA. Dave Fulton dwf@computerpackages.com ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:35:29 -0800 Subject: eskrima: "Real Fighting" A Howl etc: The "Real Fighting" book referred to by Sid Viscous is by Peyton Quinn, who is also the author of "The Bouncer's Guide to Barroom Brawling" (Burt Richardson was greatly chuckled by the copy I gave to him) and who has done several instructional videos. He also periodically hosts training camps at his retreat in the mountains of Colorado. He is a humorous raconteur par excellence, (not dissimilar to Animal-- he had me rolling one time with a story about bouncing in a bar of uranium miners) and makes many excellent points, some of which were described by Sid. I am vain enough to be flattered that there is a sub-chapter on the Dog Brothers in "Real Fighting". Woof, Crafty ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:19:09 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: pogoing on ice In a message dated 99-03-04 12:44:47 EST, Steve Wolk wrote: << While I usually find Animal's comments unusually rational and down to earth, as well as enetertaining. I have to differ somewhat on this point. I find in my training that it is very important to distinguish between DRILLS and APPLICATIONS. >> From Animal Steve, I agree with rest of your post. I too see the intrinsic value of siniwali, but do you have some sort of way to teach the difference to your students between drill and application? Getting those issues of coordination, physics, etc down pat are really critical. But where do you draw the line between drills and applications? And how do you get your students over that hump? If you don't get them past that fine distinction they are subject to a really dirty trick that the same sifu taught me. If you know what style a guy is you throw the first three moves that his kata is supposed to follow at him. (for example, left punch, right punch, left kick) He starts instinctively following then instead of the fourth (and expected move) you throw a ringer move at him. Against people with little training past the mat I found this to be really effective set up. How do most people react if you hand them the first two siniwali moves, then you do something different. You'd be amazed at how often he will have automatically shifted to meet attack #3 instead of paying attention to what is really going on. I would be seriously interested in seeing how you teach students to differeniate between the two. Because it is a motherin' problem to get past - at least for trying to teach my students. ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:53:42 EST Subject: eskrima: Re:guerillas << My "Uncle" is HUK Vetarans he is known in Laguna/Rizal/Quezon Provinces (Commander "SABO") he also well respected Eskrimadors on his time.>>AB I was wondering if your uncle had similar experiences with some of the eskrimadors that mine had. He had a very difficult time convincing the blade men to gather firepower... he thought the distance they were going to use for ambush needed guns not closing techniques. He was also afraid that the guns would fall to guerillas who were as I mentioned earlier more into rape/pillage than saving their countrymen. Btw, my uncle was in the Bacolod/Negros area at this time. He had great respect for the eskrimadores as well but thought that it was time to move into the next era of warfare. This doesn't mean of course that his men did not carry any blades. respectfully, - --Rafael-- ------------------------------ From: Ron Harris Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:08:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #94 > Finally, a belated apology to Ron Harris in regards to the Mardi Gras camp I > missed. > > Sid "Vicious" Stein Thank you for thinking of me Sid. I missed you too. Ron _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:13:06 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: pc from:leighans@aol.com what is wrong with the use of 'person'?.....are you offended because perhaps you are not a person?......or maybe you just are not that personable? ------------------------------ From: Lonnie Pollard Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 17:50:36 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Making them miss from Kevin Black >Does anyone do any drills specifically to cultivate an awareness of the >opponents reach? And then some. From my perspective most of the "Garimot" Arnis training teaches this in one form or another. There are also some drills we do that target distancing and largo mano specifically. Also, there is occasional checking of range: i.e. at any point of anything we are doing we can stop to see if a) we can reach our opponent but our opponent not us (this goes both ways), b) we can both reach one another, or c) neither can reach the other. "a" is what we want, but of course we want it in our favor. (side note: b and c are what generally happens in the case of neither person being trained in largo mano, save for one taking artificial means, such as overextending, or having some type of reach advantage--i.e. longer stick, etc., and such things have nothing to do with the largo mano I'm speaking of.) If one of us is at the disadvantage we can then use the concepts we've learned to try to shift the advantage back to our side, or atleast to neutralize the opponents advantage. It is often so subtle that the casual onlooker doesn't see either person move yet wonders why suddenly the advantage shifts from one person to the other. Gat Puno Abon sometimes does it so subtly that we can't see that he did anything even with us knowing many things to look for and our watching closely as observers, and yet suddenly he's gone from a pre neutralized position to being able to hit the other persons head with the center of his stick while the other person can't reach him at all. We are usually dumbfounded, and only when he shows us exactly what he did can we then see it when he re-does it. Largo mano is a complex system of three dimensional angling, although I've been told it's not very complex and comes naturally once you start getting it down. It's the complex made simple, yet to arrive at the simple requires first going through the complex. Like mathematics perhaps. Perhaps I'm not making much sense, so let me stop by saying that largo mano is an ongoing process of learning. >I hate to slip an opponents strike, only to take >myself out of range. That is a very important thought, and is a good observation that will help in the move toward understanding largo mano. Gat Puno Abon went over this again a few weeks ago because he noticed that in sparring that some of us were too quick to step out of range and thus put ourselves out of range of hitting the opponent when we were in a good largo mano position and could easily have watched our opponent/partner's stick pass by and then have turned back with a strike that would have connected. But by moving out of range it neutralizes the benefit and defeats the purpose of largo mano. He pointed out that "out of range" is not a combat range. (For those who would argue that there are times you'd want to be out of range, that is outside of what I'm trying to explain.) It is important to be in a position to counter. To do largo mano requires learning the ability of being able to counter your opponents positioning such that your opponents stick won't reach you and yet yours can reach your opponent. Those like me in the early stages haven't mastered the concepts or distancing enough that we are confident enough in what we are doing so tend to overreact and thus put ourselves out of range of hitting our partner/opponent. It takes time to get it down. I know, because after more than a year and a half I'm still trying to get the hang of it, and probably will still be for many years to come. It is an ongoing process of learning, much like so many other things. Gat Puno Abon has mastered it on a level that I still can't imagine as humanly possible. He is even able to take stances that give a sort of optical illusion that make him seem much closer or further than he actually is. Sometimes I'd be willing to bet there's no way I couldn't reach him, yet I extend the stick to find he's well out of my striking range. Then he extends his stick and taps me on the head. I speak so much about largo mano because it is so unusual, and not I nor any of Gat Puno Abon's students have seen anything like it elsewhere. What hasn't come across in my writing is that Gat Puno Abon is even deadlier at close range than long range. >Maybe this comes only with sparring, but any >shortcuts would be appreciated. If there are shortcuts, I'm not aware of them. Largo mano is something that is learned with time, assuming one is actually training in largo mano. I would say that it comes more from the training than sparring, but sparring gives a great opportunity to see if you can pull it off real time while someone is trying to take your head off. Largo mano reminds me very much of a chess match, except it's hard to pay attention to what you are supposed to while your legs are threatening to colapse and your vision has narrowed. Maybe like a chess match where to lose means to lose. But it's very strategic, although it isn't something where you stand there and think OK, if he does this I'll do that (I find that when I try that is when I really get hit). It's hard to remember very much after a match because most of it's like a blur. Except you always do have a certain raised awareness. You remember certain parts. It is very much strategic, yet I can't seem to get it into words, so I will save it for now. I hope it helps. Lonnie student of the "Garimot" system ------------------------------ From: "Jesse Greenawalt" Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:45:07 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: "Real Fighting" author Sid Stein wrote: >In regards to training for stressful situations, you might check out a >title >from Paladin called "Real Fighting". The author whose name >escapes me This is Peyton Quinn, author of "A Bouncer's Guide to Barroom Brawling" - along the same lines as Animal's books, and also well worth the reading. jester ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:55:37 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Making them miss the target In a message dated 3/4/99 12:47:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-digest- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << From: "Kevin Black" Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 09:13:10 PST Subject: eskrima: Making them miss Eskrimadors- Does anyone do any drills specifically to cultivate an awareness of the opponents reach? I hate to slip an opponents strike, only to take myself out of range. Maybe this comes only with sparring, but any shortcuts would be appreciated. Having seen Gat Puno Abon Baet, I would especially like to hear from the Garimot Gang. Thanks, Kevin Black shillelagh2@hotmail.com Kevin, In Garimot System this type of Drills is the basic Abecedario of Largo Mano Stylist. We start on the single stick, basic Siete Colores Cardinal strikes utilising Seven Metrical footworks and Seven Defensive counters etc.. After years of seing different style and system I realized that we are the few ones believed in this theory. This is the secrets of the Siete Colores Arnis, we believed that knowing this theories made us un-beatable in weapon strategic fighting. Offcorse the mental awareness in this type of training theory made the physical application more like magical charms. Seeing my Father, Brother, Uncle utilized this theory in competition including myself is enough reason for us to believed that we have unusual training techniques that everyone on my students should adapt. Not to mentioned this is the type of training made us (Baet family) Undefeated in Unfadded Stick fighting Tournament in Laguna, Rizal, Quezon, Bataan and Mindoro fors years. To analyzed the reach of each opponent VS your own weapon reach. The system had a "Sun-flower" footwork consist of multiple triangles, each triangle is measured 28 X 28 X 28 if your weapon is 28 inches long every step has to be exact measured through the angulation of each attack. If your weapon is longer, then we will mesured you to the legnth of your weapons. Then the body mechanics must be fluid motion though the pattern defending on the on coming attacks. Every student are trained in how far they should be distance to opponents in order for them to take advantage of their opponents. First Student are taught in one stick distance theory then later a stick and a half distance are show to the advance Largo Mano students. It is not easy, also not to hard to understand, just patience and a lot of mental training. The person whos using Zoning he know he will reach his opponents we call this Zoning techniques "Culto" (off range) and the person who is depending on his zoned positioned and he able to analyzed that he can reach him we called this techniques "Sahol" (Inside range) and if bot of them is inside the range we called this techniques "Gipit" (tight range) the largo mano stylist should know when to move and when not to moved because one move might caused a vulnerable position giving his/her opponent of advantage of reach. Well I dont really dont want to make it long but I just wanted to give alittle bit of explanation on the topic. If you have any more question please e-mail me privately at Gatpuno @aol.com for more info. It is hard topic to cover. Gumagalang/with restpect Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:08:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #95 *************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.