From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #120 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Thurs, 25 March 1999 Vol 06 : Num 120 In this issue: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #117 eskrima: Input on Hep C... eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #119 eskrima: RE: Dogs eskrima: Modern Arnis, eskrmia, Kali eskrima: Re: Yahoo! Filipino Warrior Arts Club eskrima: shoot the dog? eskrima: Dog bites man (man get's a bit pissed *grin*) eskrima: Seminar: Jim Ingram NY eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #119 eskrima: Re:Re: Riddles... eskrima: Re: Dogs eskrima: Re: Bad Dogs! eskrima: Sambo Re: eskrima: Modern Arnis, eskrmia, Kali eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1050 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeffrey Monaghan" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:45:25 -0800 Subject: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #117 1.) What exactly is Hepatitis C? A virus that attacks the liver and causes inflammation 2.) How does one contract such a virus? I can't find my book on Viruses but I think C is transferred by Sex, blood, etc 3.) How contagious is it? Again it depends on the Specific strain, I can ask one of the infectious disease doctors tomorrow. Treat it just like AIDS. Do you want to be in situation where you my be exposed to his blood through accidental contact or sparring, etc. 4.) Is it worth the risk to my students and myself to have someone with this virus in the school? You might want to discuss that with you students, they have a right to be informed. 5.) What are the legal ramifications of my actions should I choose to not allow him to participate? I'm not a lawyer but I think you also have a legal responsibility to you other students. Any chance of being hit with a discrimination case? Discrimination against what or who? You have the right to take appropriate steps to ensure the safety of you students. This is not a job, so the Disabilities Ac doesn't apply...AIDS is now cover under the Disability Discrimination Act. 6.) Has anybody else out there ever had to deal with this type of situation? No. But my teacher Guy Chase has a contract that says excludes people with AIDS, etc from training. Most Gym's won't let people with Herpes use the Sauna. I think it is the same type of situation. I'd love some feedback as this is a very sensitive issue! All the best! Jason M. Silverman Executive Edge Martial Development North Quincy, Massachusetts Grappler@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~grappler/ - ------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: Grappler Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:53:13 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Input on Hep C... Thanks to all who contributed regarding my questions about teaching a student with Hepatitis C! At this point I am still considering rejecting him as a safety precaution to all involved. This is where I need some guidence....Guro Crafty? Am I at any sort of risk from a discrimination suit? Your help is most welcome! Thanks in Advance! Keep Blasting! Jason M. Silverman Executive Edge Martial Development North Quincy, Massachusetts Grappler@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~grappler/ ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:32:11 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #119 Yip: Jeff wrote: > In some ways, I think I learned more > about handling people from handling dogs than anything else I've done. YES! Crafty ------------------------------ From: "Jeffrey Monaghan" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:42:39 -0800 Subject: eskrima: RE: Dogs Dog bites, A normal sized man can kill a dog. You will get bit and torn up a little. Man is the dominate animal, this is why dogs are a domesticated animal. If you have to defend yourself protect your head, throat, and groan. Attack its eyes or nose, the nose of a dog is very sensitive to blows. Dogs lack the sensations that humans have so they don't feel punches, etc the same way we do to the head or body. Control the head to help prevent getting bit if you can. You need to focus on destroying limbs, crushing the ribs with your weight, choking, etc. Most dogs will leave you alone if you can hurt them bad enough (Its their survival mechanism). The best thing to do when confronting a pack is to get someplace where you can guard your back and flanks, also try to get something between you and them (like a stick, garbage can lid, etc). A pack of dogs is capable of killing you. Dogs are pack animals...think of lions hunting. This is how dogs will attack. The only difference between attack dogs and normal dogs is attack dogs are trained to leap up to knock you off balance or pull you off balance, go for your throat, and groan. They do this on command...killer guard dogs usually have their voice box removed so they can't warn you of an attack. Guard dogs deter crime by intimidation/drawing attention by barking and posted warning signs i.e. Junk Yard Dog and possibly capture a theft by fighting with them till someone comes i.e. police dogs I have been attacked by a dog before. I used to clean up wounds from dog bites in the ER The worst injury I ever saw to an adult was a broken arm and several punctures to the arm and face...this was done by an Akita not a pit bull. Also when I was younger (about twelve) and walking home from school this man used to let his two dogs out to chase me for his amusement or the dogs would jump the four foot fence and come after me. After about a year of this I got mad and when the dogs came I sprayed them with bleach and beat them with a big stick. They never bothered me again. My grandpa and I had a couple of killer dogs come us when I was real young. He hit one dog in the head and killed it as it leaped at me and then hurt the other dog pretty bad. He lost his lower arm from a shot gun blast when he was younger so he had a steel arm with a hook on it. For some reason when ever someone started trouble with my grandpa, he would scratch his chin, and that would be the end of it. Jeff Monaghan BTW I love dogs. My family raised show dogs. We also had Great Danes, Dobermans, etc. the whole time I was growing up. I just don't like people who raise dogs to be mean or neglect to train them. ------------------------------ From: Gary Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:17:43 +0800 Subject: eskrima: Modern Arnis, eskrmia, Kali I am new into teaching Kali in Hong Kong. Recently my students ask me about what is the difference between modern arnis, eskrmia and kali in respect of the techniques and history of development. Any help on this issue. Thanks a lot. Gary MA(Hong Kong) ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 00:18:37 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Yahoo! Filipino Warrior Arts Club dave, try this address. the other address had a forward slash at the end, there's your problem. http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/filipinowarriorarts2 daniel ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:57:57 -0800 Subject: eskrima: shoot the dog? >The guys over at the knife forum seem to have a consensus that the only safe >way to handle a dog attack is to shoot the offender. I know first hand of an incident where a cop, upon kicking in a door, was confronted by a pit bull. He shot the dog in the head and the bullet ricocheted, hitting him in the foot. The cop went to the hospital and the dog, after walking around like drunk for awhile, shook it off and was ok after that. Obviously a bad combination of caliber and targetting ... ------------------------------ From: "Jon Howard" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:25:40 -0000 Subject: eskrima: Dog bites man (man get's a bit pissed *grin*) Hi'yall For what it's worth here is some information that I was told by a sales rep for an Alarm company when I jokingly mentioned that it might be easier to buy a big 'ole nasty dog than have an expensive alarm fitted. He said that most burglers were aware that spraying WD40 (an areasol (sp?) based lubricant most of us keep in our cars, tool boxes for spraying the terminal leads, squeaky hinges etc) directly into the dogs face (or nose) was potentially leathal and would drop the dog immediately. For obvious reasons I can't testify as to the accuracy of this claim, but I suppose if your backs to the wall... Keeping a small can handy in a purse or bag shouldn't raise to many eyebrows either... Jon... - --------------------------------------------- Jon Howard - jon@full-fat.com "The mind is like a parachute, they both work best when open" - --------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Talio Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:41:59 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Seminar: Jim Ingram NY Greetings, list members. I am announcing a seminar with Guru Besar Jim Ingram. Any one interested in attending give me a call. Seminar with Pendekar James Ingram Grandmaster of the Pentjak Silat Mustika Kwitang system. Don't miss this rare opportunity to train with this sixty-nine year old Dutch/Indonesian grandmaster. Cost: $59.00 Time: 10:00 am - 12:30 p.m. When: April 17th, 1999 Where: Talio Self Defense Academy 70 Horseblock Rd. Suite 8 & 9 Yaphank NY 11980 (516) 654-0692 Please register by April 13th to guarantee your place. -- Salam Hormat, Roberto Torres Talio Self Defense Academy Pencak Silat Perisai Setia (Harimau Sikap Baru) "Iron Sharpens Iron, So One Man Sharpens Another." Proverbs 27:17 "Sebagaimana baja mengasah baja, begitu pula manusia belajar dari sesamanya." Amsal 27:17 ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:11:53 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #119 This is not a dog forum, for what is worth though,....... If a dog has a collar, you can crank it and lift the dog off the ground to choke it out. This is a VERY common method of dealing with working dogs. One famous breeder in Texas had to use his own belt to deal with his Pit that had just bulldogged a 1600 pound bull. He just wrapped and choked. A breaking stick would have worked too. As far as Ralph Gracie doing this with a rear naked choke, ......this falls into the category of 95% of all fights going to the ground, and the Gracies never losing a fight,....Royce, Royler, Renzo, etc. tcsno@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Lonnie Pollard Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:04:08 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re:Re: Riddles... >Speaking of riddles, I never hear that many riddles in the FMA's. >Maybe, that's because nobody wants to find out what the sound of one >stick clacking sounds like! WHACK!!! No thank you... No riddles for this >guy. > >Until next time, > >Fry Bread Boy > The one stick clacking riddle of which you speak is mine, and is one that I posted a couple months back, a discussion that, thanks to my inabilty to articulate my thoughts and the dreadful difficulty I have in translating my thoughts into standard English, resulted in a fiasco. Thanks for being so kind as to bring it back up. Maybe a little salt... I'm just kiding. Really, you did a great job answering the riddle in the process of poking fun. It is so easy to fall into the trap of playing stick patty-cake that people often don't realize how often they can hit their opponent rather than hitting their opponents stick. And you are right, instead of clack you should hear "WHACK!!!", but the idea is for your opponent to receive the whack. Whack... swish, whack whack whack, instead of clack clack whack clack whack. Think back even to childhood mock sword fights. How many others out there remember thrusting at opportune moments rather than tapping sticks together the resultant response usually, hey, that isn't fair, we're supposed to tap our sticks together. I'm sure there are others out there who have experienced this or similar in their childhood. Why do we forget such things when we enter adulthood? Also, Marc MacYoung illustrated this point again nicely in his more recent discussion about siniwali. I think riddles can sometimes stimulate thought, and where it does so productively it can be useful. I agree that it is something often overdone and misused/abused, but I'm not sure I'd agree with wholesale elimination of riddles. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it is an "opinion" I hold. I'm always open to changing any opinion in light of contrary evidence. Reason. Some additional thoughts: when Gat Puno Abon was very young, his father put him through some (from the western perspective) rather brutal blocking drills, such as tying one of his arms to a tree a stick in the other hand and then saying, now, block! It was to help him develop lightening fast reflexes. But he got so good at blocking that he incorporated it into his fighting, which helped him survive fighting with older brothers who were exceptional largo manoists. When Gat Puno Abon started entering the tournaments at sixteen years of age, he relyed back on his ability to block and follow with a fast combination. His father criticised him for this. He told him he was wasteing too many strikes on blocks, which was the mark of a low level fighter. Why block and hit the person three times when the same four swings could have resulted in four strikes instead of three. Gat Puno Abon refined his Largo Mano skills and abandoned blocking. As a result, he delivered more strikes and got hit less often. In trying to explain this, people think it implies that you should just stop blocking, but if you just stop blocking and don't change anything else, as others pointed out, it's a good way to get hit. Over and over. I had not thought of adding in the qualifier to make the statement more like: It is better to hit your opponent than to hit your opponents stick, ASSUMING you know how to do it without getting hit. I'm not about to give up blocking at the low level where I'm at. But I've surprised myself by the extent to which I have been able to veer away from it. In the past when I've talked about what the Baet sons had to do to win the tournaments in the eyes of their father, their were those who complained that the father was too strict. Assuming I understood this correctly, there was one tournament where one of Gat Puno Abon's brothers took a shot to the eye early in a fight. He pulled his headband down over that one eye and continued on to victory. That is, in the eyes of the judges and audience. However, GrandMaster Felipe Baet pulled his son out of the tournament on the grounds that that same strike had it been with a bolo would surely have been fatal. What I did not convey in the past was just how much stricter GrandMaster Felipe "Garimot" Baet was on himself than on his sons. He never considered himself the winner of a fight if he got struck at all. Getting struck was seen as sloppiness, and sloppiness in a life and death fight can spell death. So we can all sit back and complain that all of that was too strict, but it meant his sons surviving on the streets of the Philippines where they were constantly challenged because of their fathers reputation. One time there was a partiular martial arts school that decided they were going to put an end to the reputation of Abundio Baet, so ten of them hid in an ally and waited to take him by surprise. As an idea to how bright these martial artists were, they separated into three groups, two of three, and one of four. Gat Puno Abon proceeded through the ally, and the end result was nine of the ten being in the hospital with broken bones and/or joints. There is said to be a record of it in the Paete police station. There were some martial arts groups who broke ties with him because they decided that he had been too violent with these ten persons, but those ten persons apparently had intentions of it being him that went to the hospital and not them. Incidentally, on rare occasions Gat Puno Abon has students spar with him where he slowly turns up the steam to get a feel for where people are at and where he needs to focus teaching. I've never seen him block anything. Either he watches the stick pass by or he hits the student three times before they realize they've gotten within range. And of course that will again sound to some like I'm promoting/implying the notion that people should walk out there and not block. But such is not the case, and the critics are correct in saying that you will likely get hit if you try it. My intention was/is not to suggest anyone abandon one thing, but rather to say that there *is* another way. All flaming invited. It is not my intention to create any friction whatsoever, but my ability to type anything without creating friction seems close to nill. So be it. I'll just keep trying to get it right. Lonnie ------------------------------ From: "David W. Fulton" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:29:36 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Dogs Ted Truscott wrote: > >The guys over at the knife forum seem to have a consensus that the only >safe way to handle a dog attack is to shoot the offender. They got off onto >a thread about attack trained dogs or police dogs which doesn't really >apply to my situatin here. > >I have been asked about the best strategy to fend off an untrained but >determined biter - not a 'killer' - with a cane or cane sized stick...we >have a large retired population and more than one 'pack' of street dogs. >I'm talking about a nasty pet, not rampaging killers. First of all, dogs are very fast, so the average person stands little chance of out running one let alone a "pack". Unless you're very close to a safe haven or have a lot of advance notice, running is probably not a good idea. I wouldn't get down on all fours as someone else suggested, if only because should the dog actually attack, you've already impaired your own mobility. I would make strong eye contact and yell authoritatively as I worked my back up against something like a car, tree, wall etc (without turning my back) to prevent the dog from getting behind me. Even better, I'd go for "higher ground" like in a tree or on top of a car or wall. The eye contact & yelling may deter the dog and the yelling might attract attention, possibly from the owner or police. Slow, steady movements are key here. A sudden movement may trigger an actual attack. As for targets for cane/stick strikes, I'd aim for the head & snout using basic strikes and swing to kill. I wouldn't just swing the stick constantly, but I'd strike out periodically at the dog, and definitely any time it looked as though they were about to attack. If empty handed, I'd attempt to control the head & jaws to minimize the damage they can inflict while looking for opportunities to inflict enough damage to stop the animal. I'd also kick to the chest & head as available whether armed or not. They can take quite a beating to the torso, but if the opportunity presented itself, I'd go for it. Personally, since I always have my knife (rather than a stick), I would do the same but attack primarily with my knife. If I had no other option, I'd let them have one arm as a chew toy while I cut their throat or go for the heart/lungs. Let me say from personal experience that when a dog attacks, they are quick, efficient & determined and IMHO, it doesn't take much for a "determined biter" to become a "killer". The one that mauled me wasn't a trained killer, but had been a "determined biter" (having bitten 3-4 other people). He attacked my legs first (grabbing me at the knee), dragging me down & onto my back before lunging for my face/throat. Giving him my upper arm & shoulder as a chew toy gave the owner enough time to get there & restrain the animal and probably save my arse. FWIW & HTH. Dave dwf@computerpackages.com ------------------------------ From: Ted Truscott Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:44:08 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: Bad Dogs! Thanks guys! I'll sum up: 1. Dogs are fast so don't let them behind you, back into a wall or tree, and don't run or turn your back. 2. Keep your stick moving in downward figure 8's or vertical redondos. Have a light enough stick or strong enough arm to be effective for a long time. If your stick is too long or heavy for this, (like a fighting cane), hold it in the one-thirds postition and punch with the ends alternatively and fast. Target the nose or the top of the head, 'dead' center. "Be able to hit hard in combinations." 3. Kicking can help, or a knee-up into the chest if he goes high. 4. Attitude is important - dominate the dog with strong language, strong eye contact, look as big as possible, yell and act fierce, and make as much other noise such as banging your stick on available objects as you can. (As a former postal carrier, we had a fine video on how to match this attitude / dominance stuff with the type of dog harrassing you, whether a fear biter or a guard dog type.) Conflicts: A suggestion to crouch(?) / drop low seems to conflict with advice to 'be as big as possible.' Any futher ideas? Question: would horizontal strikes at 'knee' height be able to cripple a dog or at least slow him down some? Or is he just too nimble to catch that way - I've never had to try it. I have tried kicking a bothersome dog who scared me quite a bit and couldn't get him but after a few kicks he had my number and caught my cuff with an eye tooth - change of tactics! thanks again, we've got a lot to work on... Ted 'the fighting old man' Truscott ------------------------------ From: "Bodnar, Stephen A" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:14:47 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Sambo can any one tell me the difference between catch as catch can wrestling and Sambo? this is the Russian wrestling. Is it being taught in the US, who would be a noted practicionar? thanks ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:30:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: eskrima: Modern Arnis, eskrmia, Kali > I am new into teaching Kali in Hong Kong. Recently my students ask me > about what is the difference between modern arnis, eskrmia and kali in > respect of the techniques and history of development. Any help on this > issue. Thanks a lot. Hi Gary, You might want to check out the FMA FAQ. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:38:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #120 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.