From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #121 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Thurs, 25 March 1999 Vol 06 : Num 121 In this issue: eskrima: New lows in teaching eskrima: Dog attack story eskrima: Car defense. eskrima: More on dogs eskrima: Akitas eskrima: Hepatitis Non-A, Non-B eskrima: Dogs eskrima: re: Inosanto/Wrestler eskrima: Re: Cooties eskrima: on topic eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1050 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:48:34 EST Subject: eskrima: New lows in teaching From Animal: Sometimes my wit is just faster than my common sense. "Why do you use nine angles instead of 12?" "Because of the social embarassment when we count to 12. At 11 people get real upset, so my teacher decided to keep it to a number that we could count to without unzipping" ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:33:07 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Dog attack story OK, I know this is not the Dog Digest, but since we're on the subject, I gotta tell my favorite 'When Dogs Attack' story: a friend of mine teaches plastic surgery at a well known medical university in So. Cal., and tells the story of a woman whom he worked on for many hours replacing the skin on her forearms by using grafts from her buttocks. Seems she was a professional dog trainer who was attacked in her backyard by a Rottweiler she was working with. My friend said that there were teethmarks clearly visible in the x-rays of the bones of her forearms. Yikes... Guro Kirk Righter ------------------------------ From: "Kevin Blake" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:02:13 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Car defense. Since people are discussing FMA vs. dog, I thought I'd ask what people = do with regard to environmental training, specifically, what do you do = about training for an attack while you are in a vehicle? This issue came to mind after I read an article in the recent Philly = Inquirer (local newspaper). Seems a woman was accosted by two dudes in = a gas station. The gentlemen wanted to pump her gas. The lady politely = declined and the two took off in a motor vehicle. As she left the = station, the gentlemen pulled there vehicle in front of hers at a red = light. One of the guys then got out of his vehicle and approached the = lady's car with a board. She tried to back up but, as is often the case = in Philly, the vehicle behind hers had stopped right on her back bumper. = The woman was then forced to watch, horrified I am sure, as the man = approached her vehicle and smashed her windshield to bits. (Article = included photo which showed amazing damage.) The guy then pulled her = from her car (door was unlocked) and punched her in the face a couple = times. He then took her purse and split. BTW, the guys in the car = behind the lady, who had parked on her bumper, evidently hooted with = approval during the attack. After reading this, I started to wonder about weapon placement and = training for tight situations, like being in a car. What do the people = on this forum do for such a situation? Kevin Blake - ------=_NextPart_000_00ED_01BE76D0.7728F2C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [60 lines deleted. Please do not send HTML to the list, plain text only.] - ------=_NextPart_000_00ED_01BE76D0.7728F2C0-- ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:11:59 -0800 Subject: eskrima: More on dogs I did not advocate, as someone took it, to drop on all 4s if a dog attacks. Going into a deep horse stance or low crouch will break off a charge, as the dog recognizes your defensive stature and circles for another look. By all means stay on your feet! The time I was charged by a 200 lb mastiff, I was in the middle of a field: no cover! I dropped and kiaied, and the dog freaked out and skidded to a stop, then turned tail! I'd figured my malamute and me for dead until that happened. Best damn kiai I ever did ... Attacking the legs is good. Dogs have sturdy bodies and skinny legs, and they generally hate being attacked there. Then again, so do most of us. The idea of getting a stick in the collar and twisting works pretty well, but the type of collar makes a difference. With a choke chain, it's a winner. Thick leather collars are hard to twist, and smaller ones will probably have the buckle give before it finishes the job. The throat can indeed be a good target. My kenpo teacher, at age 12, hit an 80 lb doberman in the throat with a 'leopard style' half fist. The dog was in mid-air, leaping over a fence at him and his 8 year old brother. It hit the ground dead. Not bad for a kid who was probably 5'3", 110 lbs, but he already had black belts in TKD, Shotokan and Judo ... Jeff "Stickman" Finder stickman@autobahn.org ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:24:13 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Akitas Forgot this part - Akitas have a special kind of bite. Bred by the Japanese Imperial family for bear hunting, their teeth angle back in a bit, so when they bite, they really get a nasty grip. The tactics were for the female to harass the bear, get it to rear up, then the male would come in from the side and break the bear's leg. My brother had an Akita, and she once hit my leg on the outside of the calf (she was upset that I brought my male malamute into her territory). The teeth were together, so it was really a punch. I was bleeding under my untorn jeans, and the outside of my leg stayed numb for several months. Tactics vary by species. Malamutes like to grapple. Their specialty is slamming and pinning with their big powerful chest. I've seen one take the other by the underside of neck and roll under him while kicking with the rear legs (tomoe-nage). The dog on top flew 15 feet. Jeff "Stickman" Finder stickman@autobahn.org ------------------------------ From: Kalki Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:37:04 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Hepatitis Non-A, Non-B This is another one that I was just gonna stay away from, but just a little $0.02 worth... Beyond hepatitis A & B are a number of strains considered "non-A, non-B", i.e., there's a hepatitis G. All hepatitis virusses attack the liver (hence the name, like hepatic, meaning "of the liver"). Like Jeffrey said, treat it like HIV ... I say a virus is a virus and ultimately any can be transmitted from host to host by the same routes (no matter what some special interest groups might want you to believe ... check out Dr. Lorraine Day). There are MANY virusses and related diseases that are transmitted via coitus, for example. Some result in cancers. NEway, in ANY type of class that I teach I appeal to social responsibility, i.e., I tell people that if they have anything contagious, stay away until it is no longer contagious. They are socially irresponsible if they knowingly jeapordize the comfort, health and safety of the group. So, got a cough, got a sneeze, got anything that makes them a vector of transmission for some pathogen ... be scarce. > 4.) Is it worth the risk to my students and myself to have someone with > this virus in the school? You might want to discuss that with you students, > they have a right to be informed. > IMHO, an outright "No" and the heck with any politically correct nonsense. As is, it is politically correct to allow someone to jeapordize everyone's health with HIV. They have the legal right to do so (duh-h-h-h). > 5.) What are the legal ramifications of my actions should I choose to not > allow him to participate? I'm not a lawyer but I think you also have a > legal responsibility to you other students. Any chance of being hit with a > discrimination case? Discrimination against what or who? You have the > right to take appropriate steps to ensure the safety of you students. This > is not a job, so the Disabilities Ac doesn't apply...AIDS is now cover under > the Disability Discrimination Act. > In my own humble experience I've had classes canceled by a University in response to my attempts to protect students from people with "inapproriate behaviors" which evinced apparent lifestyles suggesting that their interest in pursuing said behaviors could jeapordize others in the classes. Some of these people call themselves "pre-HIV" as a matter of course, i.e., they expect to pick it up in the course of their travels. It did not matter to the university that my interest was the well-being of kids and women first, everyone in general. They dumped the crap on me. The discrimination suit possibilities didn't even get put out on the table before I was told that someone was saying "Let's look at his contracts." It's something to be very careful with. This is why I like the "social responsiblitiy" tack on such issues. If a person cannot consider social responsibility in their choice of activities, like participation in a class that might be a detriment to others, then I wouldn't want them around anyway. This is not an easy thing to deal with and we'll see more of it for sure. IMHO, as an instructor, the first resposiblity would be to the health and well-being of the rest of the students. A liberal court might not see it that way. > 6.) Has anybody else out there ever had to deal with this type of > situation? > No. But my teacher Guy Chase has a contract that says excludes people with > AIDS, etc from training. Most Gym's won't let people with Herpes use the > Sauna. I think it is the same type of situation. > I'd love some feedback as this is a very sensitive issue! > ++Sensitive issue indeed muchacho. A good approach might be to pick up on what governs a gym's ability to restrict herpes carriers from sauna use. The Chase contract sounds right, but has it been tested? Has it been researched? Looks like something that needs to be researched, because so far the martial community has been taking things like this too lightly. I still remember a morning when during a 1:;1 training session with a physician I watched a drop of sweat fly thru the air and splat into my eye ... I was frozen to the spot thinking "Holy H Batman, flying sweat!!!" (not really :-) I was frozen for a moment though, I had been discussing HIV transmission with a friend the day before and had been reasoning the point that viral transmission is viral transmission. HIV (or HepX) is just another virus ... and it will take a host via the same routes any other virus can/will. Foudn otu that this physician was one "wild and crazy dude" (spare the details) so my fear was justified. It may be that bleeding is not necessary for one student to transmit Hep, HIV or anything else to another. Cosndier that when someone presses the "low probability" of something occurring they are not saying that it won't occur. They are saying that it will occur X out of Y times. They are saying that it will occur X out of Y times. Who gets the short straw? I appreciate the original post ... time for me to check out the laws around here ... I don't want to train/train with someone who has no sense of social responsibility. Funny, the concept received anger and laughter when I brought it up in a graduate level health-related class at U Miami. I mean sneering anger, man. That's weird. Like I was nuts to suggest that people should take responsiblity for willy-nilly injuring of others' lives??? Go figure ... Similar 'irrational' encounters made me think of quitting any type of MA training ... how do I know what the others in the training group are carrying (and I don't mean weapons)? Virusses are small enough to be incorporated whole into the body directly through the skin: Langerhans cells deliver surface "particles" to immune cells to kickstart immune responses in case of cuts/abrasions/infection ... one way thet HIV gets in. So, bleeding is not necessary for transmission of things that can hurt us via physical contact with a virus carrier. The probability of infection via this route may be lower than via other routes or circumstances (i.e., with bleeding contact and abrasion or other insult to skin on "new host"), but like the sentecnes at the end of the previous paragraph ... it will occur X out of Y times ... who gets the short straw? 'Nuff of my noise. Be well, Mik ------------------------------ From: Kalki Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:47:33 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Dogs You might think this is jive, but I once faced a huge dog that lived on my girlfriend's block. Had to pass this critter everyday. The first time that he charged I instantly turned to face him, looked him in the eyes and growled like a psycho. The dog halted, turned to the side and looked at me growling, occasionally barking as he backed off. I scared the beast I guess. He never got that kind of response from a human I guess! Instead of raising up I leaned forward and lowered myself until I was looking "up" at him (sanpaku), the way we see a predators eyes as they approach prey in stealth. Once the dog turned his head to the side I knew that I'd done the right thing ... like making him blink. From there the dynamics were almost a physical feeling as I maintained ground, posture and countenace (psycho face :-) I wouldn't try it with a trained dog. Massad Ayoob has some comments on that in one of his books. I would think that a dog trained to leap could be dealt with by a side step and throat and/or abdomen slash(es). Also, just controlling the jaws is not enough (thinking back on messing with a dog that way in play). At that range a dog can cut you up with his hind legs which they will use just like a cat will to shred up something's guts. Just thinking here, but it seems that a solid choke hold might be a good way to go? Be well. Mik ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:44:33 EST Subject: eskrima: re: Inosanto/Wrestler in Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Wed, 24 March 1999 Vol 06 : Num 118 Rafael wrote "<> Everytime I read about this, I keep wondering what kind of "person" would challenge Dan Inosanto? What's the point? Sorry to trash the deceased wrestler but what was the motivation of the writer as well? If it were a true duel, then Dan should have been given the choice of weaponry... heh. To also find out that most folks who were there see it totally different gives me more reason to give this writer any credibility in the class department. - - --Rafael--" I just wanted to bring up the fact that several years ago there was something in a martial arts magazine where Guro Dan Inosanto publicly declined a challange from another FMA practicioner. This just shows that everone, even the greats, are human and can be defeated. Also i would like to point out in Blacbelt Magazine (which i personaly do not like) there was a small blurb about one of the Gracies losing by choke out, five pages later there was an interview with Carlos Gracie where he was boasting the Gracie's no loss record. This is not intended to step on any toes, just something that had to be said. "Anybody can defeat anybody on any given day, given the right conditions." DblDog77@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:28:43 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Re: Cooties A Howl of Greeting to All: > Thanks to all who contributed regarding my questions about teaching a > student with Hepatitis C! At this point I am still considering rejecting > him as a safety precaution to all involved. This is where I need some > guidence....Guro Crafty? Am I at any sort of risk from a discrimination > suit? Your help is most welcome! > > Thanks in Advance! > > Keep Blasting! > Jason M. Silverman > Executive Edge Martial Development > North Quincy, Massachusetts Let me preface this by saying that I am a RETIRED attorney and have been so since I traded it all in for the big money in Real Contact Stickfighting some 17 years ago. I did not practice in this area of law when I was an attorney. This advice is worth absolutely what you paid for it (i.e. nothing) and before acting you should consult with a real attorney. No suing me for nothing for no reason no how no way! I have followed this area somewhat as a laymen reading publications which address this sort of issue however. I believe, although I could be wrong, that the Disabilities Act does apply to more than jobs. If you think the Government should not be telling you what to do in these matters, I am in agreement. I have seen some remarkably PC-Orwellian legal results reported in this area. However, I would like to speak outside of the legal context for a moment. Because of the rowdy nature of what I do as a Dog Brother I keep a careful eye on health issues and in my layman's opinion, I think you are getting unduly concerned. There are many diseases of varying degrees of severity out there today that transfer through blood to blood contact. I have seen responsible statements that somewhere between 25 and 40% of the American population has herpes, (not suggesting blood transmission here, but rather an oral lesion during an outbreak) and the current guess of the newly diagnosed Hep C already is around 4 million and growing. As was already noted, there can be a very long period (decades) before symptoms which is suggestive of low communicability as are the cases of extended sexual relations without transmission. AIDS of course is in a category by itself and non-political numbers are harder to come by. So my rule is simple: When there is blood, or any break/abrasion in the skin, ("Liquid Skin" is a great first aid for abrasions BTW) its time to stop. Avoid contact with oral lesions (or any other for that matter!). I have yet to see two people get bloody at the same time in non-fight situations. The person who has come to you is obviously a responsible person. IMHO you are not going to catch "cooties" by being around him. I would consider discussing with him that perhaps he should not share headgear with others and similar measures. In my humble opinion, that should suffice. Perhaps I missed it, but in the medical contributions on this thread, I did not see anything that really addressed the communicability of Hep C through ordinary training contact. Returning to legal matters, my sense of these things is that theoretically you might be hit with a discrimination suit-- but as I say, consult a real attorney if you really wish to do something, but again, my sense of it is it is not necessary. If you are that concerned, then have ALL your students tested for Hep C and all other communicable diseases. I wouldn't be surprised if he weren't the only one with something. Woof, Crafty Dog PS: On the dog thread, I forgot to mention the possible importance of identifying the dog's sense of territory. Also, noise can be very useful e.g. an aerosol fog horn in a can sort of thing can really reach out and touch a dog's eardrums. Lying down strikes me as pretty damn silly and an invitation to doggy style. ;-) ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:46:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: on topic Folks, remember, from the FAQ... Q: What type of messages belong on this distribution list (in priority order)? A: For the Eskrima list: - Filipino martial arts - FMA history - Indonesian martial arts - Martial arts - Combat weapons training - Seminar/tourny announcements - Filipino culture Keep the posts on topic. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:47:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #121 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.