From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #128 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Tues, 30 March 1999 Vol 06 : Num 128 In this issue: eskrima: DB/PT History Part 3 eskrima: Challenges eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #126 eskrima: Re: Clip-it in the car eskrima: Eddie Jaffri; "Moving off on a Tangent" eskrima: Re: Challenges/Gilbey/Cacoy seminar eskrima: Re: Lucaylucay eskrima: Re: Idiot challenges eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1050 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eric Knaus Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:46:35 -0700 Subject: eskrima: DB/PT History Part 3 The logistics of the rest of David's life brought this period = to a close and I entered my "ronin" years. The core point here is that was = necessary because I could not find anyone with whom to play, from either = the PT crowd, or the Kali Academy. So I began to roam the = Southern California martial art countryside looking for like-minded people. I was in sales at = the time and delved into my sales skills to encourage people into having a go = at it. If I was to have any chance of success at this, fencing masks were = out of the question and so I built a pair of hard helmets that could = withstand a baseball bat and I tolerated heavy gloves on my playmates. = Rarely did I fight a stick- rather it was a litany of various = martial arts weapons; a lot of nunchuks, sai (yes, the metal = ones!) tonfas, three section staffs, bokken swords, etc. Most of = these sessions were well short of fighting, but were valuable in = helping further my path. Many little stories here, but none = relevant to the point at hand. =20 Through serendipitous events I met Chris Markus of the Kali = Academy and Paul Vunak's group down at UC Irvine one day and he and his = training partner Bill Gaye came to play. Bill and Chris said that Paul = had discouraged them from sparring with me, but they came anyway. = Around their third or fourth time they brought Marc Denny along, who was also = training with Paul at the time. Marc had seen the bruises on Bill legs = from one of our sessions and was intrigued that he was not dead. =20 I sensed there was some competitiveness between Marc and = Chris so I felt it my duty to throw them together in the cage, shake it up = and see what would happen (I tell this story in DB1 in the section about = the cavemen strike BTW). Marc, who's skill level was behind Chris's = at the time, promptly jettisoned the fancy stuff and went with raw, = deal-with-it power. This was my first memory of = Marc=FFFFFF97Caveman/redondo/repeat.=20 =20 Marc and I hit it off. Oddly enough, we were both Columbia = University alumnae, and he picked up some handreading from me as = a vehicle to pick up girls. One evening when I was doing one of = my periodic rants about nobody to play with, he suggested that I = come up to the Inosanto Academy (Danny had opened his own place = by this time) with him where he was training. Paula Inosanto = let us stay after classes were over and have at it. This was the = beginning of what came to be called the "After Midnight Group". = For whatever reason, it was unlike the Kali Academy (certainly = less clique-ish, Tony DeLongiss helped me with the whip for = example) in that I began to regularly find people to play with. = Mark Sanden (the future Puppy Dog), Mark Lawson (future Shark = Dog) Mark Balluff (future Mongrel), Tom Meadows, Carl Franks of = Hawaii (our first exposure to BJJ), Burt Richardson (future = Lucky Dog) and sundry guests made appearances. It was during = this phase that we began to return to the fencing MASKS. There = were some really ratty, pre-Ralph Nader ones on a shelf, MUCH = lighter than the HELMETS of today, and that's what we used. The = sticks began to get heavier and with the advent of street hockey = gloves (which also were lighter then than now) we had truly = minimal gloves to use too. =20 Marc and I met Arlan at the 1988 Umpteenth First Annual = National Championships in San Jose, CA and Arlan flew out from New Mexico = soon thereafter to play. That bloody shot of a thumb tip that some of = you have seen he did to Marc about 15 seconds into their first fight. = Marc's Akita Zapata resonated to him (This was not a given--he = had pinned George Hock to the wall by the testicles once) and we = knew we had found a player. Things continued in this backyard vein until Marc, who back = when he had been Paul Vunak's business partner had been pivotal in putting = together Paul's deal with Panther Productions and thus had entry with Joe = Jennings, (the president of Panther), somehow persuaded Joe to let us loose = with his $50,000 betacam cameras. On camera was George Hock, former SEAL, = whom Marc had introduced to Paul and who had opened the door for = Paul with the SEALs. =20 The result was on Memorial Day Weekend, 1989 we fought for = three days (actually Arlan, Mark Sanden and I sneaked in an extra = day of fighting the day before against Marc's direct orders not = to get dinged up before the shoot!) to have fight footage for = the instructional series now known as "The Dog Brothers videos". = These three days, which we call the "Rumble at Ramblas" after the = park in San Clemente where they took place, were when all of us = began using the lighter fencing masks except Burt, who was = beginning to look for movie work and was worried about looking = dinged up in advance of a big audition he had coming up so he = wore a hard helmet. This is why I was willing to step on his = head in our fight as seen in DB1. =20 Which brings us to the point of this whole meandering = reminiscence. The starting point, while undeniably was with PT, had evolved far = beyond where I would have gone had I stayed strictly within that = discipline. What began at Rambles was the change from sparring = to fighting and the birth of the pack. Fighting non-stop for = three days was for all there a transformational experience. =20 This was just the beginning. As you will see in the second = series, in the 10 years of fighting since then the fighting has = grown. The volume of fights on the part of the regular players = is considerable. Arlan, Marc and I one time tried to figure out = how many fights it has been. Our best guess is that Marc is = somewhere around 125, Arlan at least twice that, and we were = unable to guess how many I've had. Certainly PT is always a hot bed of fighting spirit and a = fecund source for the Dog Brother tribe (myself, Sled Dog, Dog = Loki, for example), but so is Inosanto Blend, and so is = DBMA=FFFFFF97and so can be any style. One can be PT or Inosanto = Blend, or DBMA or any other system/style and become a Dog = Brother.. And certainly we do not claim to be the first or only = to have ever played at this level. Let this be clear! The art = was created by men who went further than us. Of course there = have been those in their backyards have truly aired it = out=FFFFFF97although the number of these is probably far less = than the number of those who claim to be such.=20 The people within the PT group of the 1970s were explorers to = point (you had to be at that time because sticks were so unknown) = but more into taking pot shots at any other martial art that may = have threatened or otherwise challenged their "superiority". The = mentality was much akin to a first year practicioner of any art = (i.e. "my art/instructor can kick any one's ass, therefore what = I practice is the best... etc"). Had I stayed in that vein = without pushing the envelope, I seriously doubt real contact - as = it was rediscovered and made somewhat socially acceptable by Dog = Brothers - would have happened and FMA in the US today, with the = exception of a true handful (Danny speaks of Narrie Babao of San = Diego for example) would mostly still be a group of loosely = associated fiefdoms without a realistic sense of what they are = doing and more importantly, why they are doing it. =20 Specifically what are some of the differences between the old = east coast PT days and the DBs of today? =20 There is a much larger tribe committed to exploration of truth = at a more consistently intense level. Even when compared to the = handful who fought without gloves in the old PT days, a hand shot = today hurts more because the sticks are heavier and the power = level of the fighters is greater. And, by the way, Arlan = sometimes fights without gloves, and I would say that my baseball = batting gloves qualify as such too=FFFFFF97their purpose is only = to protect my hands from being scraped bloody when I punch = someone through the fencing mask=FFFFFF97they offer NO protection = from impact. Overall, the gear is less, and the quality of the = fighters, visitors included, is higher - in great part by virtue = of having seen us do it. =20 =20 More weapons make their appearance. In the old PT days, it = was ONLY single and double stick. In DB Gatherings we have = staffs, (including hardwood) nunchuks, whips, tapado, bokken = (hardwood, edged and pointed) tonfas, three section = staffs=FFFFFF97all of which were seen in the first series and in = the second series you will also see chains, (one of those ninja = ones with a weight on the end) and sickle (!) as well. Quite a = difference! Grappling is part of the fighting. When weapons are not = bladed, grappling can happen and it doesn't care whether you like = it or not. And this is not just Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Marc has = led the way here, not only in introducing grappling and in = introducing BJJ, but in the development of a distinctive DB = approach that draws upon both BJJ, the FMA and even some Bando = Python. The state of mind is different. Billy is right when he = describes the old days as sparring, and wrong when he applies the = term to what we do today. Even though there are "No judges, no = referees, no trophies" =FFFFFFA9 the fighters today seek victory. = Don't let that "Higher Consciousness through Harder Contact" = =FFFFFFA9 fool you=FFFFFF97you can get unconscious too. It may = not be a death match, but the UFC and the World Combat = Championship did not turn us down for "sparring"=FFFFFF97they = turned us down for being "just too extreme". My opinion and experience is that what we did in PT in the = old days was sparring. Certainly the hits by the better players = sometimes were plenty hard, and certainly there were injuries, = and certainly the few who played could fight and no doubt still = can, but there was a level where it did not yet go. This is not = to say that PT does not produce people who are capable of = stepping onto the DB field and doing well, quite the contrary, = Pekiti Tirsia certainly does. Tuhon Leo Gaje made me, and he has = made others. =20 I have ignored the gossip by some that my seguidas are not = done right. However, what gets my hackles up, what I will not = ignore, and what has triggered this most long-winded post is the = mumbled claim from the back rows of PT that reaches my ears from = time to time that what the Dog Brothers do is no more than what = PT did in the old days. I was there and I am here. It is not = true. The Dog Brothers put it out there in plain sight in an open = forum and we have been doing so for 10 years. There is no claim = of invincibility. All of us lose sometimes- including myself. = But we're still at it and we let it speak for itself. I'll be = there on May First. Bark, Top Dog = =20 ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:10:11 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Challenges I believe the story about the basketball player involved Charles Barkley. Not a 7 footer, but a bruiser. As for magazine hearsay, remember that controversy sells magazines, so if they can help the process along by printing rumors or deliberate misinformation, well, it happens ... "People who want to share their religious views with you almost never want you to share yours with them. " Jeff "Stickman" Finder stickman@autobahn.org ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 05:53:18 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #126 Hi Tom, I had the chance to train with Burt Poe on many ocassions. I also meet him at the Smokey Mountain camp. 87 & 88. In 88 he taught us tracking and how to eliminate centrys. At Pete Hetrics camp in Janesville, WI he taught me how to infliced some major pain on someone while cuffing them. He made it look like I was fully cooperating with him while he was nailing every nerve point on my body. The one thing that was a waist about Burt Poe was that no one ever took real advantage of his knowledge when ever I saw him at the camp. This was a man who actually put his combative talents to work for him in real combat situations. Burt Past away from cancer. People like Burt Poe and Dr. Gyu should have a waiting line to get to them. Ron Balicki - ----- Here is a whatever happened to.........I met Bert Poe in '87 at the Smoky Mountain Camp. He was a very interesting character. He taught some fighting techniques during Tim Tacketts sessions. He also used one of Chuck Patrick's Damascus blades to slaughter a young goat. I understand he had a background in boxing and judo, but his techniques were very interesting. I also saw him in photo's with Larry Hartsell at the Dallas Cowboy Camp. Has anyone on the list trained with him?? I understand he passed away a few years ago. Tom Furman...aka tcsno@aol.com >> ------------------------------ From: "User" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 07:29:57 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Clip-it in the car > > From: "Todd D. Ellner" > Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:09:22 -0800 > Subject: eskrima: Re: Clip-it in the car > > A friend of mine had his attached to the shoulder harness, just like > the two correspondents mentioned, when he was attacked while waiting > in line at the Taco Bell drive-through. He managed to get it out and > put (by his best estimate) about a dozen solid pokes into his two > assailants before they thought better of what they were doing and ran > away. > When driving, I like to keep my Endura braced under my left thigh. Just enough to brace it without burying the handle. It seems quicker for me to get at from the steering wheel and, if I feel like I might need it, I can have my right hand on the handle quite inconspicuously and continue to drive. It also offers the advantage that you always know where it is due to continuous contact. I thought of the harness, but thought it might move around/fall off without my noticing. Also, you can transfer the position to other non-clip knives (i.e. a neck knife in its sheath or a folding knife w/o a clip) without sacrificing the draw you are used to. My 2 cents..... Jon. mau-tze@erols.com "'Cause even when I danced with life no one was there to share" -- Dream Theater, "Caught In A Web" ------------------------------ From: "Al \"Got This Fish On The Move\"" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:32:24 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Eddie Jaffri; "Moving off on a Tangent" Recently, Tuhon Bill McGrath wrote an interesting story about Penjak Silat expert Eddie Jaffri. Although I wasn't his student (only 1 seminar), I remember when attending a few classes with Grandmaster Gaje and Tom Bisio was that Eddie use to ride the subways Of New York City to practice his skills. Regarding "Moving off on a Tangent" and definitions of radius and tangent and my interpretation of what was written, the practitioner using this technique would only be effective or be able to hit at one point. In the Garimot System of Arnis, our footwork differs where one is able to hit several points while the opponent can not. Circles are used but tangents to the circle are not. Respectfully, Al Sardinas Student of Garimot System of Arnis ------------------------------ From: "Dave Huang" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 06:42:50 PST Subject: eskrima: Re: Challenges/Gilbey/Cacoy seminar RE: Challenges Remember the Count Dante Karate challenges in the 70's in Chicago? Heard some people got killed and others ended up in jail. Tying this in to FMA, I have heard from one of the Canetes that when they were witnessing the challenge matches in the PI, it was not unusual to see someone get a thrust in the eye or something unpleasant like that. I have heard from someone in the Kalis Illustrissimo group that some of the challenge matches with Tatang ended very badly for the challenger. RE: Gilbey My understanding is that Gilbey is a pen name for a quite serious MA author (who actually wrote the definitive book on Chinese Boxing for his time and was held in very high regard). I forget the name. I heard that the "Gilbey" books were kind of his hoax on the unsuspecting martial arts community who expected to hear about grandiose feats of martial artists. - ------------------------------------------------------ CACOY CANETE SEMINAR in Southern California Cacoy Canete needs no introduction on this forum. He is, in short, a legend in the FMA community. One of the fighters of the famed Doce Pares group, Cacoy has engaged in a number of competitions with equally notable Grandmasters (GM Atillo being one that springs to mind). Cacoy will be in Southern Cal for a rare appearance: May 8, 1999 at IMB Academy 22109 S. Vermont Ave., Torrance, CA 90502 Call 310 787 8793 for more information. I will more likely than not be at this seminar, IF you are from the list, please introduce yourself. Ray, hope you can come down for this. Dave (Delurking for once) Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:55:41 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Lucaylucay In a message dated 3/30/99 12:43:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, eskrima-digest- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Lucaylucay style from what I have learned so far is very percussive. Lucky Lucaylucay was the Panatukan champion in the Philippines (Ted also). They wrapped the hands and forearms in a sticky gauze that hardened like plaster of paris when they fought. They use a lot of forearm (Ordabis, dungar, etc. SP isn't correct), backhand, and palm strikes. The knife system is like the Panatukan. I mean they punch and hit with butt of the knife just as much as they cut with the blade. I don't know how many people on the list have seen Lucaylucay style but I consider it to be one of the best systems as far as the Panatukan goes. >> I trained with the late great Ted 15 years ago in Southern California. While we didn't do our arms in plaster we sure did a lot of slap blocks. All these years later, while practicing Aikido, you can still hear my slap blocks at the other end of the Dojo. He was a great teacher. Always, my compliments and appreciation. Lynn Tenshinkai Aikido/Lucaylucay Kali ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:29:48 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Idiot challenges In a message dated 3/30/99 12:57:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, eskrima-digest- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << It is not something I am proud of. Mr. Inosanto has a lot less need to prove himself. He saved everyone a lot of trouble (and himself being sued after he tare this idiot apart). >> From Animal I hate to tell you this guys, it ain't the guy who makes a production about challenging you in front of a hundred witnesses that you have to worry about. It's the dude that shows up on your doorstep that is the true challenger. The first is hunting a reputation, the other is hunting you. Coming up in the seventies where actual challenges to MA instructors were common I found a significant change on this issue in the ensuing decades. Unfortunately Black Belt Magazine has often encouraged wars of words that supposedly are fore runners of actual challenges. Bull, they are PR wars. The guy who makes a challenge in front of witnesses, ninty nine times out of a hundred is relying on you not taking the bait.In fact, it's a PR move -- plain and simple. Face it, you have all sorts of things to lose, civil suits, respect and running the risk that the pud might just hurt you. All of this for no gain on your part. He on the other hand has all sorts of stuff to gain from you exercising common sense. Now he gets to go around bragging that he backed you down. Among those of testosterone mental impairment, this impresses. The rest of the world thinks he's a jerk, but he has carved a niche at your expense. There are two basic ways to handle those who want to build themselves up by challenging. Embarrass or make it cost. Many years ago I had an incident where a young rep seeker came looking for me at a party. Since my plans that evening included a particularly yummy young lady, I was in no mood for a fight. Finally after a while of him saying how he thought he could take me and that I was over-rated I said, "okay step outside." (Those who knew me knew something was up right then, as in serious situation I was prone to launch at people without warning). Anyway the kid swaggered outside ahead of me and I locked the door. When he came back in through another door the entire party was laughing at him and I was sitting on the couch with my arm around the sweet young thing. He was left with the choice, back down or just out and out swing at me. He rightly sensed that the rest of the party goers would have fallen on him had he tried. He soon left. The other thing is make it cost. Anyone want to take a shot at me? It'll cost you 20 grand cash and you sign a waiver of release. Money on the barrel head in the hands of a holder. I figure that will cover my legal bills, medical expenses, damages to the building that will occur and give me something to pocket for my troubles. If not, go away kid. There is no profit in for me. I'm a professional, I get paid to fight. I don't do it for fun or pride. And I especially don't do it to prove to the witnesses what a stud I am. I freely admit, I am mercenary -- even more than a rep hunter. By fighting you in public he is assumming that if things got out of hand he would be saved by the onlookers. So there won't be that much of a cost. Is his desire to fight you under public circumstances so profound that he would risk 20 grand? You could of course barter for something else. I once told a guy who was threatening to physically abuse me that after I was finished with him I would consider his woman a short-term spoil of war. (Of course I didn't phrase it quite that delicately). All of a sudden she became real interested in keeping the fight from happening. Together we convinced him that the costs were prohibitive If a guy serious about getting you, he will come at you where there are no witnesses. Because he is, in fact, committing a crime. Either that or he will lunge at you instead of talking. If he is committed to taking you out, he will throw the first blow without regard to witnesses or pumping himself up. (The same can be said about the guy who say's "let's step outside." This is not a game, if you got a problem with me or what I am saying, enough to take it physical, it goes down now. No hesitation, no blustering. The guy who says "step onto the mat" is doing the same thing. He's banking on you backing down from his false challenge. I mention this because there have been several references to such incidents on the list. Would the guy be willing to fight you for the pink slip on his car? How about his school?) By choosing to verbally challenge in a public forum, the only thing he is serious about is blustering. He's building his reputation at your expense. Not only shouldn't you buy it, but recognize it for the con job it is. ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:56:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #128 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.