From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #135 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sun, 4 April 1999 Vol 06 : Num 135 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Rocky's post......again eskrima: Rocky's diatribe eskrima: You find it everywhere! eskrima: Rock's spell eskrima: Deification eskrima: Guro I and Attitude eskrima: Re: Dr. Gyi eskrima: Rock's rant eskrima: Listen - listen please!!!!!!!! eskrima: I'll be a good boy now Ray eskrima: Dogs? .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1050 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Philip Gelinas Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 23:06:06 +0000 Subject: eskrima: Re: Rocky's post......again I would venture that one possibility of Guro Inosanto's reaction (accepting Rocky's infallable memory of the events) is that the products of Remy Presas' teaching were at the best uneven in those early days. I met quite a few "black belts" with no discernable ability in FMA. They had received their ranks (from what they said) after not much more than a few weekend seminars. Maybe Rocky came across like one of them. Also, if Rocky at his ripe old age of 18 came across as as much of a dick-head as he does now it is hard to see anyone responding to his actions in any other way. So you smoked 'em did ya? Ooooo whee. I too trained in PT. What was the first mistake part ? If you say now, in a moment of witty repartie, something about how there are people in PT that could be considered technically challenged, I will beat you to it. We have Greg Alland and you don't so nya nya nya. See I am not calling you a bad fighter, just a dick head. Thats nice isn't it? PG ------------------------------ From: Remy Sticks Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 20:16:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: Rocky's diatribe Rocky Thanks for speaking the truth and then having the stones to defend yourself form the hero worshiping mob. Lets make it clear why Danny uses the stop watch. It is NOT so he can disseminate as much material as possible. The sole reason is so that you will keep coming back (and paying of course) to try and learn what you caught a glimpse of. Some of you may take exception to these comments, you are welcome to. I am a professional educator, I have both a Bachelors' and a Masters degree in education. You may have more Martial arts experience then me, but..... Thanks again to Rocky Sticks _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 20:32:04 -0800 Subject: eskrima: You find it everywhere! >In those situations the enemy's long swords and bayonets >were awkward to use, giving the Gurkhas with their short swords the >advantage." Hey! Serrada!! You knew I'd say that, right? Jeff "Stickman" Finder stickman@autobahn.org ------------------------------ From: Rocky Pasiwk Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 23:44:06 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Rock's spell Hey Dan, take it easy lay off my spelling.......................Thats the Craftmasters job, he might get jealous, you critiquing my spelling and all :-)!! Rocky ------------------------------ From: Kalki Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 22:54:39 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Deification All stars get deified, no matter what their venue of stardom might be, but a "Christ-like" FMA Guro I ain't never seen :-) Perhaps we can pass that off as deep emotional appreciation and let it go at that. Hey, when I was in my twenties there were people going around claiming that Bruce Lee caught bullets with his teeth (and believing it!!!). Deification. They don't usually ask for it, but they get it whether they like it or not .. some like it and use it to their advantage (taking advantage of others, ego-tripping). OTOH, to his credit, Guro Inosanto appears to go on acting like just another Joe ... training with others and behaving in ways (according to reports) that fit with the role of trainee (i.e., instead of acting like he's General Guan or something ... you know, the red-faced deified Kung Fu of Guan/Kwan Dao fame?). I never subscribe to deification of any human being because ... La Illaha Il Allah ... Only God is God. ... and also because I subscribe to the thinking that no matter who you may face in times of contention You just gotta do what you gotta do, no matter who they are, who they trained with or what they purportedly know. I remember volunteering every time a volunteer was required at one seminar (I ain't callin' no names :-) The master instructor was going to spin and kick me ... when he did so I found myself standing next to him on the outside. At that point he would have been at my mercy ... me, a nobody special that he'd never seen before ... and whom he had shaken his head "No" at as response to my bid for instructorship training. He (and everyone else present) was quite shocked that this guy for whom he obviously had derision had "spooked" him ... he couldn't believe that I had done it. Hey, man, EVERYTHING was in my reach and he was standing on one leg leaning back, know what I mean? I was standing right beside his support leg. I'm glad that I didn't take advantage of the logistics ... could've been one hellacious afternoon!!! 'Specially with all those otherwise mesmerized "groupies" around :-) A man is just a man ... we don't have to belabor the worst of what a man might do or has done in the past ... and we don't have to throw out the baby with the bath water. I thought nothing of having succeeded in dealing with that particular situation facing that master and am confident that I could do it again. Could I beat him? In general I don't think so, but that experience reinforced my awareness that the stuff built around a personality should never get in the way of how we conduct ourselves in doing business with the person, including business that involves conflict of whatever type (including physical). Give the Rock man a break ... if my machine hadn't locked up on me when I pressed the "send" button a few times I might have sent some meaner notes from time to time (fate be kind, it happens all the time). What that has taught me is that sending those notes would not have served any good. Rock, you listenin' bro'? We gotta remember when to let it go. Similarly all the nasties that went back his way ... ey, no need to play that funky queer stuff (pardon my language if any PC folks are on board). It doesn't help anything either. Doesn't say much for the "level of consciousness" of those who throw it around. Any Gentleman Warriors 'round here? Does Dr. Gyi or some other deified regular guy have to say it before we consider decency? BTW is it true that Bruce Lee could walk on water? I heard that you had to have a Ph.D. to do that. H'mm, I got lots of doctoral gibberish behind my name and I stumble on the stairs from time to time, forget that water-walking jive! ...and the great swami studied by the Menninger Foundation, Swami Rama Bharati, once said that when his deifying followers in India were wailing and crying trying to feed him because they thought their Shankaracharya was in such a high state of meditation that he might leave his body ... he was bored to death asleep! (Har-Har-Har!!!) A man is just a man, even the guys like him who are believed to be God-man. "nuff rambling noise out of me. Y'all be well now, y'hear? Be well, Mik ------------------------------ From: Kalki Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 23:13:15 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Guro I and Attitude Just a memory ... at one JKD seminar that I attended I was having difficulty with some things in knife work because of the pace of presentation. I pretty much gave up on actually "learning" the stuff adn felt that it was too far from basic drills for me anyway. On the next break Guro I made a comment about how he might go "too fast" and went on to describe how he, the one whom everyone was looking up to, once had to have someone show him a technique for a couple of hours before he got it. The technique that Guro I was trying to learn was being demonstrated on Dwight Woods. What is clear here is that Guro I knows who and what he is. Those who might deify him or any other such personality (and the attitudes that they put on out of association with said personalities) are the ones who've gotten out of touch with that. I think that's part of what Rock was about in that post, eh? Be well, Mik ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 01:06:11 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Dr. Gyi Has Dr. Gyi written a book of his WW2 exploits? If so, what is the title? Thanks, Kelvin Williams kel620@aol.com Modern Arnis Student ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 00:47:15 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Rock's rant A Howl of Greeting to All: Although the Rock has been muzzled Ray, may I have one turn to comment? I begin with an indirect approach: Myles wrote: "But, (there is always a but), it is my understanding though that Guro I was not always as humble as he is now. Especially right after Bruce's death. I have heard that he made some comments in one of his early books, that he later recanted on. Something about all the Great Kali masters have moved to the U.S. and that there was no one in the Philippines worth learning from anymore. (I don't have a copy of the text, but have seen it. I believe it is out of print now.) I heard that this upset more than one of the Masters still in the P.I. st that time. That there was a great deal of animosity toward him for a long time. Later he admitted what he said was wrong and apologized, which earned a great deal of respect in my eyes." This appears to be one of these stories which will never go away. But from time to time it needs to be answered. Guro I. did not say that the great masters had moved to America, he QUOTED some of the masters in Stockton "If what they say is true, then , , " The apology I know nothing about-- it may have been something like "I'm sorry that you understood it that way". Thus, once again we see how sloppy people can be in their reading and thinking and how vulnerable most of us are to having hot buttons touched-- certainly I am not immune. This little tempest is a perfect example. Somebody, saying "it had to be said" told a story of a challenge to Guro I.-- without naming the challengers and has since declined to name names. It would seem to me that the story should be given no credence whatsoever, but several people got a bit excited, (my hackles rose a bit too) and there were some good posts (Bill and Animal's come to mind) about challenges in general. Then along came Allen. I think he's a good guy and I mean no disrespect, but it seemed to me and it would seem to others as well, that he got a bit melodramatic-- and was sloppy in his reading-- there was no challenge that could be identified. And off went some of Rock's hot buttons-- note the plural. I comment on Rock's post with some trepidation. The logic is, how shall I put this? somewhat non-linear. Perhaps he has an atypically large corpus collosum? (roughly the interface between the left and right hemispheres of the brain) And obviously this stuff has been burbling along for over 15 years. But a couple of points stand out. Certainly sometimes people can get carried away a bit in their admiration. This is human nature I suspect. Look at the adulation given to actors in America today. These are people whose main gift in life is to pretend, or to state the matter plainly, to lie. I trust my respect and loyalty is Guro I. is granted by all, yet I agree with Rock that sometimes some people who follow Guro I. can get pretty silly. I know he thinks so. But, as has been noted, this excess is true of the followers of just about any leader worthy of respect. I confess to a yawn or three when Rock was discussing Balintawak history a while back, but after a while just scrolled down and ignored it. But where I think Rock gets into a bit of trouble, and comes off a bit of the ass, is with his other hot buttons. Although it comes later in the post, in terms of what propels him emotionally what communicates to me (I could be wrong), is the matter of the multiple question marks in two consecutive sentences about the subject of giving credit to his teacher Remy-- a writing technique to communicate strong emotion. Based only upon his own words, it seems like he may have walked in carrying a bit of a grudge inherited from his teacher. Again, sloppy reading rears its head. The list in the book is of Guro I's teachers, and Remy is not that-- I'm sure he would agree. It is not a complete list of The Greats of FMA, its just a list of the men who helped teach Guro I. Thus the years, decades? of resentment that this seems to have been carried are all much ado about nothing. How rare! Also suggestive of walking in with an attitude is the comment about 5 years before, when Rock was 13 years old if I have the math right, claiming that somebody scored well on Guro I. in chi sao? Even if it were true, (and I do doubt it) of what relevance is this to anything? Or the episode with the assistant? Martial arts classes and seminars are full of little snarling incidents such as this-- it comes with the testicles. Or what is the point of comparing FMA boxing drills taught at a seminar to what one trains at one of the toughest pro boxing gyms around? I suppose that the point was to give examples of Guro I's non-divinity, but although I think we're all agreed upon that I would suggest that the particular examples proffered by Rock in his rant are poor evidence. Anyway, Forward. I would comment only parenthetically that Guro I's entree into FMA came not by virtue of his Bruce Lee connection, but by virtue of being his father's son in Stockton California and of his being the kind of student and man who could get all these different teachers to share their arts with him at a time and place when that was not how it was. Woof, Crafty Dog PS: I thought the crack about Democrats was very funny. ------------------------------ From: Joe Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 21:09:36 +0900 Subject: eskrima: Listen - listen please!!!!!!!! People please...!!!!!!! Let's talk about training, or something positive for your training that came from a seminar. Yesterday I got the chance to train with Ian (Shaggy Dog) Wilde. I had a great time - I know he's not Guru Dan, or Angel, or Remy - but I learned quite a bit from him - I had a great time, my class loved all of the things he talked about. Being around him really made me remember the brotherhood aspect of martial arts, and the fun of just getting out there and swinging a stick. C'mon people - how did we let ourselves get caught up in all of this arguing about idol worship, challenge crap, and taking cheap pot shots at each other. Lets get back to reason that everyone joined this mailing list in the first place (I know that arguing wasn't one of the reasons). Kaliman in Japan... Take a look at the Community Please come in and take look at the Progressive Martial Arts Community Online, it is that it is being offered as a public service so it's Free. http://mycomm.excite.com/mycomm/browse.asp?cid=.gJWmHPLR1FF Joe McCray Head Instructor Progressive Martial Arts Fussa-Shi Tokyo, Japan ------------------------------ From: Rocky Pasiwk Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 10:12:23 -0700 Subject: eskrima: I'll be a good boy now Ray This is from one of the many many many private e-mails I received in support of my post, I guess others are not quite up to making wave, that's ok make for more fun for me. > I just want u to know that i agree and support your recent posting regarding > inosanto and bruce lee worshippers. it's one thing to respect a person but > it's another to deify him/her. all martial arts practitioners should always > be open minded and this means being open-minded to the strengths and > weakness of their styles and also their teachers. It just occurred to me > that inosanto wouldn't be the talented and respected martial artist that he > is today if he were to adopt the hero-worship attitude of some of his > students, because if he did, he would've worshipped only ed parker [as the > ultimate martial arts master] and never would've trained with bruce, > lacoste, cabales etc. > Perfect, this is what people should realize, I know that his really good students already do understand this. What makes Danny so good is he never fell into the worshiping game maybe with Bruce just a wee bit but he was a major factor in his life so who could blame him, At any rate Danny would train with a 100 year old three legged monkeys uncle, if he thought he could learn something from him. ( If I get one e-mail from a 3 legged monkeys uncle cause I affended him I' m gone kill something ) > having said that, i must say that u got a bit out of hand when u replied to > steve, mike and brian in a sarcastic and slightly insulting [but > nevertheless very humourous and amusing :) ] manner. i guess that's when > Ray stepped in to extinguish any potential flame -ups. > > way to go rocky! we can't be nice all the time and i respect u for speaking > aloud and enlightening us all. > I guess you are right I should probably be a little more sensitive to others, most people on the list know I am a smart ass, I guess I should refrain from going off to bad, its obvious that at least one of them was a serious follower and I should not have been so hostile, of course he did insult me first, but nonetheless. I will be nice now PoBah!! bad Rock will go away now!!! Good Rock will come back!!! Rocky ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 08:50:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Dogs? Ok, any more posts with Danny, Dan, Guro I, Remy, Christ, Rock, or walking-on-water in them will be deleted from the next three issues of the digest. Take it to private e-mail. Perhaps we should go back to talking about dog attacks... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #135 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.