From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #144 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Thurs, 8 April 1999 Vol 06 : Num 144 In this issue: Re: eskrima: Khalid Khan? BOUNCE eskrima: Non-member submission from ["Leo Gaje" (fwd) eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #143 eskrima: Re: Knives, specifically Benchmade eskrima: Klingon, Romulans and Ferengi, oh my! eskrima: ethics eskrima: Tactical Knife Attributes eskrima: Sumo on TV eskrima: Re: Khalid Khan eskrima: Left hand eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #140 eskrima: Khalid's video eskrima: Re: [Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #143] BOUNCE eskrima: Non-member submission from ["Steve Klement" (fwd) eskrima: clarification eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1050 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 08:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: eskrima: Khalid Khan? > Out in Usenet, I saw a message advertising a 2-hour video by one ``Khalid > Khan'' in Karachi, Pakistan. It is claimed he trained under Grandmaster > (Angel) Cabales between 1987 and 1991. Does anyone know this fellow? > > I am curious because the posting recommended learning "Serrada" via this > videotape over training with an actual instructor. Curious recommendation, > and one I fully disagree with. Yes, I know Khalid. I studied with him about 8 or 9 years ago for several months when he lived in the Bay Area. He was a very nice guy and an intermediate level eskrimador/serradador. wrt his videos, well, if you believe ANY video could replace training with a actual instructor, then I have a bridge to sell you. :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 08:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BOUNCE eskrima: Non-member submission from ["Leo Gaje" (fwd) GRANDTUHON PEKITI-TIRSIA SUMMER HOLIDAY CAMP TRAINING DATES: A. JULY 3-12,1999 F.DECEMBER 4-13,1999 B.JULY 18-27.1999 C.AUGUST 1-13,1999 D.October 8-18,1999EE E. 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PHILIPPINES TEL.FAX NO. 063-34-434 0962 TELEPHONE 063-434 -0960-61 ------------------------------ From: Joe Talmadge Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 08:59:40 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #143 > > I think you have just opened a major can of worms. > > Last time this was discussed on the rec.knives those that seem to know > > better than I felt that liner locks are more prone to accidental unlocking > > than lock-backs (NB Cold Steel does not do many liner-locks). > > > > The new locks (rolling lock of REKAT, Axis lock of benchmade, Body Lock of > > Chris Reeve's Sebenza) may be the way to go. > > I have heard of liner locks failing, but never seen it myself. I have > personally failed several lock-backs, a couple of times without even trying. > I hear that roller locks are excellent. > > Mr. Talmadge, you wanna jump in here? I'll get you for that "Mr.", Ray :) I'll start with a summary: both lockbacks and liner locks can have locking (or more accurately, auto-unlocking) problems. Two newer locks -- the Axis from Benchmade and Rolling Lock from REKAT -- both seem to have solved all the accidental opening problems (though I occasionally hear of Rolling Lock failures), but they are fairly new. The Reeves-style integral locks, as found on the Sebenza and Benchmade Pinnacle, are proven safe locks. Those 3 locks are the kind I look at now. Lockback failure: Some lockbacks will fail when you grip them hard. This depends on your hand as much as anything. Some people (like Ray) can always fail the Spyderco-style mid-locks when white-knuckling. Other people can't fail those mid-locks, but always fail the Buck-style endlocks. Me, I sometimes have a problem with mid-locks, but not often. I can't fail my endura. A less-often-seen problem with quality lockbacks is failing due to spine pressure -- the BM 840 was the exception that proved the rule. Cheaper lockbacks do often fail to spine pressure, though. Liner lock failure: Liner locks are a whole other topic. They are *so* difficult to do correctly that I can typically fail 50% of them no problem. They often fail due to white-knuckling -- any handle that has a cutout so you can get to the lock easier almost certainly fails due to this. They often fail due to spine pressure, either slow pressure to the spine, or a *moderate* whack to the spine. And the other problem is that the ball-detent lockup often doesn't work so well, so liner locks often open up on you in the pocket. Worst of all -- and this is a big one -- a liner lock that passes all the lock tests for months may suddenly start failing on you. You never know when a little bit more wear changes the geometry enough for it to start failing. I had lunch with Ray and some friends a few weeks ago, and went 0-4 in failing the various liner locks around the table. How embarassing! However, many people have seen me fail liner lock after liner lock, and my typical estimate is that 50% will fail, if tested by someone who knows what they're doing. If Steve Harvey is on this list, he'll testify that I failed every liner lock in his collection that I tested, except 2. Believe me, guys, there are WAY more stories of liner locks unlocking and causing serious injuries to the user than lockbacks. It is a dangerous lock style because it's so damn hard to do it right. I won't buy any liner locks anymore, period, because of how many locks I have failed and how many people have gotten stitches or worse when really stressing their lock. At the very least, you should get the Liner Lock Test FAQ and test your locks yourselves! cheers, Joe Talmadge jat@cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 08:51:35 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: Knives, specifically Benchmade It was the 4" version of the Ascent that had the lock problem, model 840, but all folder locks are worthy of suspicion. There are only three mass produced folders that I consider reliable as serious weapons right now, and they are the Benchmade model 710 Axis Lock, the Gerber Covert, and the Round-eye Knife and Tool (REKAT) Rolling Lock folders (Pioneer, Carnivore, Escalator). They have locking mechanisms that are far more reliable than conventional lockbacks and liner-locks. They will cost you $100 to $150. The Clipits are great, inexpensive tools, and all knives are useful within their limitations, but the extra price is cheap for what it could save you. Steve Harvey ------------------------------ From: "Paul Taylor" Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 17:26:57 +0100 Subject: eskrima: Klingon, Romulans and Ferengi, oh my! *** Warning non FMA post **** Star Trek..my grandfathers uncle was C S Forester who wrote among other things 'The African Queen' and the Hornblower books who's character Gene Roddenberry apparently based Captain Kirk on. That's my small claim to fame, that and appearing on Blue Peter, the UK kids program not a porn flick :o) Paul www.eksrima.demon.co.uk ICQ 33392439 ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 09:25:25 -0700 Subject: eskrima: ethics >I do not mean I lower the standard of the art. I just changed the emphasis >to train students to be worthy and peaceful citizens of the world. My wish >is to change blood-thirsty students to happy peaceful ones. I channel their >unhappiness, frustrations and aggression to martial arts activity with >proper guidance and direction in order to change their mind-set. Right on! My theory is that by practicing self-defense we acquire self-knowledge and this leads to self-respect, where perhaps there was little before. Does this make us self-centered? Well, how can we improve our world if we don't make an effort to improve ourselves for a start? We first must become self-aware before we can really recognize what is going on around us and what effect we have. The discipline of martial arts is a vehicle for this, though not an exclusive one. Practiced with consciousness, our increased capacity to protect ourselves not only raises our own self-esteem but increases our empathy toward others as well. "When you find yourself getting irritated with someone, try to remember that all men are brothers... and just give them a noogie or an Indian burn." ------------------------------ From: Michael Melone Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 09:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Tactical Knife Attributes >From: "David W. Fulton" >Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 15:05:16 -0400 >Subject: eskrima: The Perfect Knife? >So, out of curiosity, I'd like to know what attributes >other list >members >(as FMA'ers) look for in a knife that they plan to >carry everyday for >defensive purposes and why. - -- IMO, the most important attribute for a tactical folder is a lock that won't fail. Until about six months ago I didn't really consider this factor very much. I fell for the hype from the manufacturers and the knife magazines about how amazing the locks were on this knife or that knife. This is particularly true of liner locking knives. These have been portrayed as being totally bomb proof. Due to the ringing endorsements I read, I bought a Gerber Applegate Combat Folder and a Benchmade CQC7. In reading some stuff on Bladeforums I came to find out that people had experienced lock failure on their liner locks. Then I read an article by Joe Talmadge and A.T. Barr on rec.knives about testing for lock failure. Using thier methods, I tested the locks on the aforementioned knives and was shocked when the locks failed on both knives. Due to this I'm not carying either of these knives anymore. Currently I carry a Cold Steel Vaquero Grande and a Benchmade Ascent. These are both lockbacks. Some people don't like lockbacks because of the possibility of inadvertantly releasing the lock when gripping the handle. I've never had this problem with either of these knives. I'm very interested in Benchmade's new Axis lock and Round Eye Knife and Tool's new Rolling lock. The reviews on Bladeforums have been very positive. I got to check out the Axis lock at a recent knife show and I liked it alot. Very smooth and easy to opperate. === Ciao Mike Melone memelone@yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Michael Melone Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Sumo on TV For those who live in So. Cal., KSCI chnl. 18 carries a show called Sumo Digest at 11:00 or 11:30 pm during the bashos which shows an edited version of the day's matches. It's in Japanese, but who cares? The action speaks for itself. === Ciao Mike Melone memelone@yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:19:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Re: Khalid Khan >From: " " <nanun@my-dejanews.com> >Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 19:15:45 -0800 >Subject: eskrima: Khalid Khan? Khalid Khan trained in Serrada Eskrima under Grandmaster Angel Cabales (his name is listed as one of 14 cerified instructors in Mark Wiley's book on Serrada). About a year ago, he held an "eskrima quiz" on Usenet regarding angle #4 and it's use and meaning as it pertains to the Lock and Block drill in Serrada. I was one of the winners in answering the question correctly and he was very kind and generous enough to mail a free copy of his Serrada video to myself and other winners as promised in the contest. Of course a video can never replace training with a qualified instructor, but it does have it's place in recording the movements of an instructor and serve as a useful supplement and learning tool for a student outside of the school. The video is over 2 hours long covering basic 12 angle striking and blocking, Lock and Block, disarms and counter for counter(sumbrada)drills). Khalid also goes into a little bit of Silat near the end of the video. Worth checking out if you can get your hands on a copy. Regards, Gerrard (gat@oz.net) Lema Scientific Kali Arnis (LESKAS) >Out in Usenet, I saw a message advertising a 2-hour video by one ``Khalid Khan'' in Karachi, Pakistan. It is claimed he trained under Grandmaster (Angel) Cabales between 1987 and 1991. Does anyone know this fellow? > >I am curious because the posting recommended learning "Serrada" via this videotape over training with an actual instructor. Curious recommendation, and one I fully disagree with. > > > > ------------------------------ From: "Grantham, Stephen" Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:31:30 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Left hand Marc Denny wrote: " In my case the groups are usually quite a bit smaller ;-). In my early seminars I leaned towards working people on what I perceived them as needing first. In most cases this is Power and Footwork basics. And in most cases, people don't understand what it is to really focus and groove on something. Thus, I would start out making them do rounds of the basic power swings, left and right-- the idea being "This is how you need to really train in order to OWN the material." But I noticed a couple of things. One, a lot of people don't want to hear they can't hit hard enough to hurt a poodle and that their footwork is seriously Caucasian. Two, a lot of people don't want to learn that what they need involves work. They would rather learn to flash a twiggy stick and bitchin' disarms. Three, a lot of people don't like working their other hand-- in great part they suck at it and it messes with their ego to look bad in front of other people and/or themselves. And four, they tend to assume that that is all I/the Dog Brothers/DBMA/real contact stickfighting are about." I think this is a good point. How do you balance working paying students on the necessary basics while still enabling them to enjoy the process? I was able to train under Marc Denny for a two hour private lesson back in Feb. of 96, and it literally changed the way I trained. Up until that time, I had focused almost exclusively on my right side, even though I had been told repeatedly by Sifu Inosanto at seminars that you should be able to do everything on both sides. Like alot of what Sifu Inosanto says during seminars, I kind of heard what I liked and kind of ignored the stuff that made me uncomfortable. Guro Denny forced me to work my left side dominant with double sticks. I was so awkward and had to concentrate so hard that I got a headache. It was very frustrating, yet extremely eye opening at the same time. To this day I consider that one of the best lessons I have learned in Kali. Since then, I not only focus on doing everything on both sides, but I force the senior students at the academy to do so as well. I really like how much working on the left side enhances my confidence on my right side. I am still not as adept with my left, but I can honestly say I am now "comfortable" using either side. I think Sifu Inosanto does a pretty good balance of instruction. He teaches the stuff that people find fun to learn, yet for those who are paying attention, he is always stressing the practical in terms of reality. He has told a story several times of just teaching abecidario contrada (largo mano) to someone just hours before a tournament, and then having the individual go out and do well (I don't remember how well). He stressed the basics with the guy, just basic evasion and cutting/hitting, with a couple of standard followups. I have noticed that most people tend to overlook those comments, and instead focus their attention on the various drills and disarms. Much more fun maybe..... Steve Grantham sgrantham@microage.com ------------------------------ From: Remy Sticks Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #140 - --- > > eskrima: The Perfect Knife? > Dave was wondering what attributes make up the perfect knife. I am reminded of an article written (I believe) by Massad Ayoob (I know he's a gun writer but bear with me.) He and several other writers were discussing the best gun to carry for any situation. Several opinions were offered and general discussion concerning each followed. Finally one of the group layed a weapon on the table and said that this was the best weapon. When the other members asked why he replied, "Because, it's the only one I have with me now." I guess that holds true for knife carriers too. we use what we have available. Another of you guys/gals wrote about meeting R. Marchinko who was carrying about 17 blades and refered to them as tools. I am reminded of another time that I was having dinner with sefveral M.A.'s at a seminar in Philadelpia. As typical the discussion turned to fights in general and knife fights in particular. One of the group said that he had seen a fight in which one of the combatants had lost his "one and only knife" and the fight was over. My training partner stated that he was obviously not a "real" knife fighter, but merely a fighter who happened to carry a knife. Seveal questioned this and my partner stated that a real fighter always carried more then one knife. Several at the table scoffed and my partner was asked to prove it. My partner proceeded to lay four knives on the table which he had removed from various concealed locations on his person. He then stated that he had 3 more weapons hidden on himself but declined to give away thier location. Just my humble opinion for what its worth. Sticks. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 10:56:14 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Khalid's video >Out in Usenet, I saw a message advertising a 2-hour video by one ``Khalid >Khan'' in Karachi, Pakistan. It is claimed he trained under Grandmaster >(Angel) Cabales between 1987 and 1991. Does anyone know this fellow? > >I am curious because the posting recommended learning "Serrada" via this >videotape over training with an actual instructor. Curious recommendation, >and one I fully disagree with. Lots of us know (or know of) Khalid. Yes, he did train with Angel, starting about the time I graduated. In fact, Angel paired me with him for a demo the Stockton group did in Union Square (SF) back in 1989. I would not say a video is better than a good instructor, but it certainly is possible to learn from video (there have been lots of comments to this effect here on the E-D, and several prominent members produce such tapes). Certainly a tape is better than no instructor at all (Serrada is mostly found in Northern California and a few specific locales in the midwest), and for those with good background in the arts, tapes can be a way to expand one's knowledge base by accessing concepts from teachers who are not in the local area. I was promised a copy of Khalid's tape to review; still waiting ... "It's always darkest before dawn. So if you're going to steal the neighbor's newspaper, that's the time to do it." Jeff "Stickman" Finder stickman@autobahn.org ------------------------------ From: paul martin Date: 8 Apr 99 11:03:24 PDT Subject: eskrima: Re: [Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #143] To all who commented: Thanks! I agree with the major points, but I think Tom Gerace's posting hit it mu= ch clearer than I could have. The idea is the effectiveness of the practiti= oner, how well he adapts his tools and himself to perform in the appropriate environment; and the PRE training to accept the reality that you are at r= isk of emotional, physical and or spiritual damage to yourself because of yo= ur own actions (killing, maiming, loosing buddies even if you made the "righ= t" decision) as well as an independent enemy exerting his/her will against y= ou. As far as knives and military choices and the statistics on hand to hand = as a way of accomplishing the mission, I've always liked the sayings: Why send men where steel should go? Work smarter so you don't have to work harder. The more you sweat in peace the less you bleed in combat. Saying that, I have to smile because even the professional soldier/leader= s of the worlds best trained/equipt military can't always agree on the best wa= y to do this...that's because of the "art" that marries with the science. Statistically, yes CQB is the last resort of the military, technology was= meant to be used. Just as in FMA, efficiency and minimal effort is the g= oal of a well trained martial/combat artist. But, if anyone has done any inf= antry tactics training - offensive, the envelopment technique of coming in on a= n enemy's flank still requires that you get right on top of the enemy to de= stroy them or drive them off. If the steel has been sent properly, that option= should be eliminated. But, as everyone has agreed, it is still a reality= =2E = Paul P.S. You can call me Paul if you want to respond to anything I write:) I= try not to be that stiff. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 11:24:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BOUNCE eskrima: Non-member submission from ["Steve Klement" (fwd) Forwarding. Ray - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Forwarded message: Forwarded message: Subject: BOUNCE eskrima: Non-member submission from ["Steve Klement" ] Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 12:41:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Khalid Khan? From: "Steve Klement" I have met and and witnessed him in action... I fully endorse his Serrada teachings to any of my enemies. Mr. Ray Terry can tell more! Steve Klement Inayan School of Eskrima http://www.shoponthenet.com/Inayan/ > From: " " > Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 19:15:45 -0800 > Subject: eskrima: Khalid Khan? > > Out in Usenet, I saw a message advertising a 2-hour video by one ``Khalid > Khan'' in Karachi, Pakistan. It is claimed he trained under Grandmaster > (Angel) Cabales between 1987 and 1991. Does anyone know this fellow? > > I am curious because the posting recommended learning "Serrada" via this > videotape over training with an actual instructor. Curious recommendation, > and one I fully disagree with. ------------------------------ From: paul martin Date: 8 Apr 99 11:18:08 PDT Subject: eskrima: clarification Cecil Burch: After reading the postings over, I hope I see where the confusion came. = My response was to the idea of Close quarters battle as a whole dimension of= combat and I am assuming that you were discussing the knife as an effecti= ve CQB weapon in that environment compared to other battlefield tools. If t= his is the case then I see that we were both on the same side of the issue. Regardless, I agree with Tim Kashino's comment about the CQB use of a soldier's primary firearm employed as a blunt weapon as a better option. = The gun Y daga concept was to satisfy a curiosity, not to promote the idea of= effectiveness. In the combat arms part of the military, training has to = be prioritized to maximize time on essential skills. Knife fighting is a fa= irly glossed over topic for most conventional warfare troops because of the to= ns of other skills that have to be covered. The saying goes Shoot, Move and Communicate as the boiled down ideas. I definitely don't see Stab or sla= sh in there as a primary topic of military training:) Paul ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 11:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #144 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. 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