From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #153 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Tues, 13 April 1999 Vol 06 : Num 153 In this issue: eskrima: Al Colangelo & "Mind Boxing" Re: eskrima: Reporting the Action eskrima: Re: most real looking fight scenes I've seen in the movies eskrima: I just don't suffer fools very well. eskrima: serrada Re: eskrima: I just don't suffer fools very well. eskrima: dinosaur training book eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #152 eskrima: Tempers flare... eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #151 eskrima: Screen doors in a submarine eskrima: Serrada: hidden techniques, curriculum, or individual understanding? eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1050 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: adrowell@webtv.net (Arthur Rowell) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:27:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: eskrima: Al Colangelo & "Mind Boxing" In the May issue of Inside Kung-Fu their is an advertisement for a series of videos on "mind boxing." It is supposed to be a blend of silat, taiji, and bagwa. Has anyone seen these videos or heard of the instructor on them, Al Colangelo? If so, what was your opinion? Thanks. Doug Rowell ------------------------------ From: "Todd D. Ellner" Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:40:31 -0700 Subject: Re: eskrima: Reporting the Action The Stickman traded in his rattan for a keyboard and wrote: >>Good reporting Stickman! A couple of questions, please: >>1. Had you grabbed one of your sticks on the way out, and encountered a >>fight/robbery/whatever in progress, would it be legal to use it to come >>to the aid of the victim? > #1: Probably not legal. As I wrote a long time ago, I once caught three >gangbangers opening Xmas mail from boxes on my street. They jumped in a >car and split, I called the cops. The LEO who showed up told me if I had >used the stick I was carrying (I'd been working out in my back yard) I'd >have gone to jail. Let's see - three against one, they are committing a >felon, and they are on my private property, and I'd go to jail. I told him >next time I wouldn't bother calling 911 ... As a rule cops know little or nothing about the law except for the police procedure end of it. They are not lawyers. They are not judges. If you want legal advice it would be best to find an attorney who specializes in criminal defense law and get his considered opinion or to toddle down to the law library and look up the relevant statutes yourself. Things vary a lot from state to state. Oregon law allows you to use deadly force against someone attempting to commit a burglary against a dwelling. Other states require your back to be to the wall in your own house before you can do anything. Texas, I believe, allows you to use deadly force if the burglary is at night. > Now in this case, it depends. If my first gut feeling had been correct, >that a woman was being assaulted/raped, showing up to help with a weapon in >hand would probably get leniency, though I might still get booked. If I'd >shown up and saved someone's life from a crazed knifeman, I'd probably be >ok. Maybe get a medal :) If your gut feeling had been correct you would have been well within your rights in Oregon (ORS 163.mumblemumble) where the law says you can use deadly force to prevent unlawful deadly force from being used against yourself or an innocent third party. It's not really a matter of leniency if the the judge has bothered to crack open a law book once upon a time. Check your own state's laws, but I believe that it is pretty close to universal. >Depends on the LEO, how they view your >involvement, etc. Coming to the aid of another is generally considered >socially acceptable. Generally .... Sorry, the cops are not the judge and jury much as many of them seem to believe so. It is not simply "generally considered socially acceptable". It is the law in a lot of places. If you try to stand on your rights, particularly if your city's Finest don't like you you are probably going to be put through the meat grinder. Of course. Most police officers I know divide the world into three sorts of critters: sheep (citizens), coyotes (bad guys), and Rottweillers (cops). Coyotes and Rotties have teeth. It's natural for them to bite things. When a sheep bites they get confused. If it bites and it doesn't wear blue polyester it just HAS to be a coyote. But you still have a right to bite in defense of yourself or another innocent person even if the guard dogs have trouble wrapping their minds around the concept. For now anyway :-( > First choice would be one of my handguns, but since I don't keep one next >to the front door, I'd waste time backtracking. I doubt I'd grab the >antique swords by the door (kalis seca and kampilan, or the Igorot spears); >funny thing, I've got weapons all over the house but it's hard to find one >when you want it! If I grabbed a stick from the front room, odds are it >would either be one of my flutes or a walking stick. The flutes are light, >fast and tough, and I can use them well. The walking sticks are heavy and >have reach. I'm pretty comfortable using one, though not like the short >sticks. I've been doing a lot of heavy weapon training (bokken and staff) >as the weather has been getting nicer. Bottom line, whatever tool I'd grab >from my house, I've used or trained with it. Not too fussy in that regard. If the research of MW and others is any guide you'd be better off in court with a thumpy-thwacky or a bangy-bangy than a slicey-pokey. Juries seem to be remarkably willing to convict people or in civil cases to award huge damages when someone uses a cutting tool in self defense. It's a cultural thing. To most people's minds God-fearing White taxpaying Christians shoot each other. Evil greasy subhuman nigras and mezcans use knives. Unfair, racist, and prejudicial as all hell, but that's how juries tend to think. ------------------------------ From: Ted Truscott Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:13:53 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: most real looking fight scenes I've seen in the movies From: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:30:44 EDT This reminds me of my vote for the worst - the knife fight in Segal's boat adventure (the name escapes me) in the kitchen. I heard others say what a great fight so I looked at it again...all I see is a flurry of waving hands behind a lot of kitchen clutter (hanging pots and pans) and the SOUND of knives hitting each other at high speed - -do any of you guys actually catch your opponents blade on your guard every time like that...we certainly can't. The Fighting Old Man ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:29:45 -0700 Subject: eskrima: I just don't suffer fools very well. >> Serrada, but there's more and not just in that format. > >Not sure what that last statement means, but it had better not mean what >I think it might. You think that the Serrada that you learned is better or >more complete than someone that studied with Angel when he was younger, >stronger, faster, meaner? Think again... > >I personally only know ~85 counters to Serrada's 12 angles. In time I will >learn more, but NEVER think that you learned more from Angel than did his >early, his best students. We've picked that up from you in the past. Angel >was better when he was older because he was slower and weaker and sick... >Yeah, sure... Sorry for being such a DAMN FOOL. I was answering someone who only knew about "3 techniques per angle". Suro knows, and teaches, a lot that I don't know or teach, ALRIGHT??!!!!! I don't know what the hell you think you pick up, but you must be one HELL OF A PSYCHIC. All I say is that Angel didn't use this format when I was around. If his early students helped him develop his system, GREAT. If he chose not to use it later, that was his business, and what I, and the others in the 80's experienced, was different. Did I say better ANYWHERE in my post? NO! So why do you get so defensive any time that gets mentioned? Just letting him know there is more to Serrada than the basics he's seen, WHEREVER it comes from. I'm glad you know so many counters. If it makes you a better martial artists, fine. Signing off J. Finder Sorry folks, I know I'm supposed to keep order here, but I just don't suffer fools very well. ------------------------------ From: Danny Alvendia Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:43:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: serrada > > From: > Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:14:10 -0700 > Subject: eskrima: Serrada, or Serrada? > > >>>*All* 3 of the counters? Hmm Okay > >What, is it something I said? For the record in Serrada there are 3 > >"basic" counters taught for each of the 12 attacking angles. This 3 > >eventually leads to an infinite number of counters. Are you not familiar > >with Serrada??? > >For the record, Mike > >Inay studied under Grandmaster Cabales in Serrada and even though from > >what I understand Mike made some minor alterations, would it not still > >be considered "Serrada"???? > > Yes, and no ... There seem to be lots of folks with this "three moves per > angle" idea of Serrada. I guess that's how Angel originally taught it. It > seems to me that this was a way of hiding information and doling it out to > those he trusted. When I learned (mid 80's) this wasn't the case. > Example: angle #1 has FOUR basic moves: outside, inside, cross and > umbrella. Angle #2 was similar: a different outside block, shoulder > block, cross and umbrella. From these basics different one could derive > different permutations, and these basics formed the foundation of the > entire system. All subsequent angles had even more moves, except for > angles 7, 8 and 9, and even there, we had other stuff, just "not > recommended". This was not just the way I was taught as a private student, > but was what I saw in seminars, at the academy, etc. Yes, Suro knows > Serrada, but there's more and not just in that format. > > "Born free... taxed to death." > > Jeff "Stickman" Finder > stickman@autobahn.org > Man, here we go again. The 3 def./angle is only a teaching guide so as not to confuse the beginner. When you get good enough with the 3 defenses, you progress to the advanced counters. This number is "endless". We have video of GM Cabales working out with Jimmy Tacosa and doing only 3 counters/angle. There was no hiding knowledge, etc ... that you speak of .. you think just because you were shown 4 defenses/angle, it makes your system more serrada than ours? You are funny, Jeff. > ------------------------------ > > From: Ansel Chin > Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:52:14 -0700 > Subject: eskrima: Re: 3 counters??? > > >>*All* 3 of the counters? Hmm Okay > > What, is it something I said? For the record in Serrada there are 3 > "basic" counters taught for each of the 12 attacking angles. This 3 > eventually leads to an infinite number of counters. Are you not familiar > with Serrada??? > > For CSE angle #1, there are 12 techniques in the basic instruction set; for angle #2, there are 7 techniques, etc. For CSE folks, you can see why the ??? when we hear about the "3 basic counters" - there is no such syllabus, not from GM Vincent, or GM Angel for that matter. BTW, CSE angle #1 has in excess of 25 techniques - sometimes I lose count >:-( > > The core/foundation techniques are pretty much contained in angles 1-5. > > Ansel > > Ansel, like what I said above, we learn from a basic 3 defenses. We can generate more techniques from a given angle after learning the basic three. Serrada is being taught differently by almost everyone in regards to technique, etc.. If not, then why don't you bond with IESA, Jimmy Tacosa's group, or other serrada groups. Each group claims to always have the "proper" or right way. For me whatever works is fine regardless of style. - -- Danny Alvendia dannya@3com.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: eskrima: I just don't suffer fools very well. > was different. Did I say better ANYWHERE in my post? NO! So why do you > get so defensive any time that gets mentioned? Because you never seem to understand, even tho it has been explained very carefully to you many times before, both publically and privately. We've discussed about how your backhanded comments are perceived as slaps to me and us, yet missed by those not in the Serrada circle. As you and others can tell, I'm getting very very tired of it... > is more to Serrada than the basics he's seen, WHEREVER it comes from. I'm > glad you know so many counters. If it makes you a better martial artists, > fine. Just pointing out yet-one-more-time that in Inayan Serrada after you become proficient in the basics, you learn more than 3 'basic' counters per angle. Yet these 3 'basic' counters per angle clearly demo serrada's concepts to the beginning student. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Jeff Brooks Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:56:26 -0700 Subject: eskrima: dinosaur training book >From: "G. Michael Zimmer" >2 - Is anyone familiar with the strength training found at grappler Mark >Furey's web site: http://www.dinosaurtraining.com/freeoffer.html ? I apologize for contributing something this bland to our boiling ascii cauldron of contention, and will make it short. I haven't read Kubik's book, but several contributors at http://www.cyberpump.com have received it favorably, and provide a good indication of its content. As an aside, I think that Arthur Jones (Nautilus founder) was the earliest and most influential proponent of what has become the "high intensity" approach to resistance training -an approach interpreted and advocated by some 'cyberpump' authors, and maybe by Kubik to some degree. YMMV, and for a *very* alternative school of thought, find some of what Ken Hatfield, or NSCA prominents, advocate. That feud is almost as good as some of those here are promising to be. Jeff Brooks ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:28:47 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #152 In a message dated 4/13/99 1:26:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > Let me say a bit more about Khalid. > > I have always thought highly of Khalid because of the person he was. Not > the person he became (as he later demoed on rec.m-a) or because of his > Serrada or athletic ability, but because he cared for people. > > I was going in for surgery, nothing serious, but it required a general. > Khalid > called me the day before the surgery to ask when it was going to occur. He > wanted to know as he wanted to pray for me during the time I was going to > be under the knife. That meant a lot to me. > > So, Khalid may have had some problems, his serrada was not all that great > and his athletic ability is not all that great. But what really counts in > the end is how you treat others, and he treated me very well. > > Ray Terry > raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Please, let me say more about you. You' ve impressed me in spite of our differences and because of this I have always held you in high regards and respect. In respect to Khalid, I come from a background in which many of my prophets talked to flaming bushes, and heard vioces in the night telling them to build an ark in order to save the human race. I don't know of many here that claim such but, over there its seem to be a common experience. Could be that tobacco is common here and that stuff they're smoking in that thing with six hoses and all is a substitute that causes these visions they have. I don't mind this because, to me, religion is very important no matter what the faith may be. My problem with Child is the fact I get all these great PICS of sumbrada with him and AC only to get a pic of a bottled dyed Packistany with obvious signs of breast implants who is staring in an up and coming scriba movie filmed in Pakistan. This pisses me off to the Max only to have him drop in and ask about my school and then tell me about his stay in NY and Pizza on 52 ND Street in NY. How can I totally hate this person that is so genuinely nice when half of America are total assholes? I have to say that Khalid had matured through the years and may surprise you if you stay keep from talking about sex. Just think of his background, a Muslim and Sex ????? Mallen ------------------------------ From: Drew Zimba Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Tempers flare... ***** Jeff said: > When I learned (mid 80's) this wasn't the case. > Example: angle #1 has FOUR basic moves: outside, inside, cross and > umbrella. Angle #2 was similar: a different outside block, shoulder > block, cross and umbrella. From these basics different one could derive > different permutations, and these basics formed the foundation of the > entire system. All subsequent angles had even more moves, except for > angles 7, 8 and 9, and even there, we had other stuff, just "not > recommended". This was not just the way I was taught as a private student, > but was what I saw in seminars, at the academy, etc. Yes, Suro knows > Serrada, but there's more and not just in that format. Followed by Ray's reply: Not sure what that last statement means, but it had better not mean what I think it might. You think that the Serrada that you learned is better or more complete than someone that studied with Angel when he was younger, stronger, faster, meaner? Think again... I personally only know ~85 counters to Serrada's 12 angles. In time I will learn more, but NEVER think that you learned more from Angel than did his early, his best students. We've picked that up from you in the past. Angel was better when he was older because he was slower and weaker and sick... Yeah, sure... ****** Whoa guys! Let's all play nice-nice. If I read correctly, Jeff was responding to Steve's statement that Khalid Khan's tape showed the three basic counters to the 12 angles, which was what he had learned (as a beginner) in Inayan Eskrima, and then Steve's musing about even though Suro changed slightly, wasn't it still Serrada. Jeff said that the three counters/angle was correct from a beginners point of view, but warned that there is more to Serrada than three counters/angle and it does not have to be taught in that format. Ray, you just confirmed that. You said that Suro introduces beginners with the three counters/angle format, but there are more. You also mentioned that you thought CSE uses a different format for beginning students (which was confirmed by the CSE camp in the next post). Hence, "Suro knows Serrada (three counters/angle is a valid Serrada training format), but there's more (not just three counters/angle) and not just in that format (other Serrada teachers may not use the three counters/angle format for beginners)." Sheesh! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:56:23 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #151 In a message dated 4/13/99 8:01:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I would have to get off my backside and do it for myself or engage myself into a relationship with someone who will do it on my behalf while I perform some complementary act that benefits them. >> Hmmmm....what exactally did you have in mind? :-) (just teasing) MS ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 13:08:32 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Screen doors in a submarine A Howl of Greeting to All: Interesting question presented on the matter of screening students. In my own case, I confess to internal inconsistencies in my logic. Like Pat, I believe in the power of the process to change people for the better. Lots of people who come to martial arts have , , , issues to work on, and work on them the process does. Still, there are people whom I suspect should not be taught for the safety of others. And then there is the matter of a policy viz certain groups per se. I am proud whenever I teach LEOs, even though some of the laws they enforce I oppose. And I am proud of the fact that Top Dog and I taught US Navy SEALs and I have taught various military personnel as well. As long as I can and do speak up when I think we are missing the mark (and we do!) overall, I do believe in the United States, and I believe a special kind of thanks is owed to those who put their butt on the line for others-- as long as they are "well-regulated". Man is an aggressive animal by nature. Visualize peace is great, but if you want to lie down with lions, its better to be another lion than a lamb. I've noticed that most pacifists still believe in the necessity of the police, ditto the armed forces. However, I would not be willing to train DEA (for you non USers, that's the Drug Enforcement Agency) agents. The raison d'être of the DEA is one I thoroughly oppose and I believe this agency to be at the forefront of police state tendencies in America (I refer to the forfeiture laws in particular here) I suppose it could be correctly pointed out that I might be increasing the likelihood that the force they would use would be non-lethal, but on a visceral level I am unwilling to help them out in any way. There it is. (Do not confuse this with approval of people in the drug business.) Then there is the matter of what not to teach. Although I cannot explain it logically, I have an aversion to teaching many aspects of knife to most people. In a world of guns, I'm not sure what sense this makes, but there it is. Just my two cents. Woof, Crafty ------------------------------ From: "boloman" Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 13:55:24 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Serrada: hidden techniques, curriculum, or individual understanding? >From: Ray Terry >The 3 basic counters per angle is simply a structured way to present Serrada >to a beginning student. This way the beginner doesn't get confused. It >works and it works VERY well as a way to introduce a student to eskrima and >to serrada. There is NO hiding of info. >From: Ansel Chin >For CSE angle #1, there are 12 techniques in the basic instruction set; for angle #2, there are 7 techniques, etc. For CSE folks, you can see why the ??? when we hear about the "3 basic counters" - there is no such syllabus, not from GM Vincent, or GM Angel for that matter. BTW, CSE angle #1 has in excess of 25 techniques - sometimes I lose count >:-( > One of the beauties of Serrada is its apparent simplicity. However, permutations of movements in any style can be counted in such a way that it looks like there are MANY MORE “hidden” techniques. That’s not an actual misrepresentation, just a difference in terminology; what one person classifies as a whole separate “technique”, I may call a simple variation of something else. But the more important thing than sheer volume of techniques per angle is that the concepts beneath them are represented accurately, in theory and in practice. Everyone evolves in their teaching and their personal skill. GM Angel may have kept a basically unchanging curriculum from way back, but his way of teaching was subject to change according to the abilities or understanding of the particular student, not to mention the effects of his age and health, and his own evolution. IESA’s curriculum is as GM Angel taught it to Master Sultan Uddin. I am not familiar with Vincent Cabales’ curriculum or how it differs from ours—or any other Serrada school. It would be interesting to compare the how’s and why’s as to the individual schools’ changes or preferences. But if we get carried away, this discussion will turn into a debate with “My art is the One True and Best Art” as the final destination, and that would be tiresome. The topic of hidden techniques, Serrada or otherwise, can be an emotionally charged one. If hidden techniques really exist, who will ever admit that their own learning was limited because of a seemingly arbitrary (or intentional) choice of the teacher? I don’t think much is really “hidden”, if anything —it’s all in there, but have you progressed enough to understand it is the question. What is different from student to student is the way we use the techniques or an aspect of them. If I figure out that I can use a given technique to hit the head instead of the weapon-hand, by varying my timing (or whatever…), BUT you use the same move in a different way, our students will learn different aspects and options for the same tool. Is someone learning a hidden technique, or just a different understanding of the same thing? Given, this is all theoretical, and some styles may indeed have what is called a “hidden” curriculum that is only taught after a certain level, but it is also likely that the only limitations on our skill are imposed by our dedication and training—or lack thereof. Alvin Albano Advanced Guro Boloman@goplay.com International Eskrima Serrada Association http://www.tribe-iesa.com +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | The coolest site for free home pages, email, chat, e-cards, movie info.. | | http://www.goplay.com - it's time to Go Play! | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 14:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #153 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. 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