From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #154 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Tues, 13 April 1999 Vol 06 : Num 154 In this issue: eskrima: fools? eskrima: official number of moves eskrima: Re: certificates eskrima: fools eskrima: Re: for the record eskrima: agreement and a snarl eskrima: Re: Serrada Debate eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #150 eskrima: moving on... eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #153 eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1050 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Frankl Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:24:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eskrima: fools? Ray, we all get pissed at times but we also have come to count on you as a levelling influence. I don't think there was anything in the post cited to warrant ad hominem attacks, no matter how oblique. John Frankl ------------------------------ From: John Frankl Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:44:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eskrima: official number of moves To take the "3 moves per angle" thing to a potentially less angry and more constructive level I propose a question and an analogy. Q: At what point does the appeal to authority--whether Angel or Mike Inay or whomever--hamper evolution and personal improvement? Analogy: In Brazilian Jiu Jitsu everyone knows that the Gracie family got the ball rolling and that Helio is the oldest living rep. of said family, and so "grande mestre." As such he gets much respect. Simultaneously, however, nearly everyone also agrees that the art/sport--without regard for Helio and Rorion's more conservative wishes--is constantly evolving on the mat through endless trial and error, problems and solutions. Some BJJ players come accross as ignorant thugs, some are, but the fact of the matter is they are empiricists par excellence. New techniques are created and tested empirically--the touchstone is effectiveness, not "Helio didn't teach that so it's not BJJ." Look at either high level academics or athletics and it is the same. Known as "standing on the shoulders of giants," the better your predecessors were, the better you should be. Put simply, if your teacher took it to point B and you don't take it to C or farther, both you and your teacher have in a sense failed. John Frankl ------------------------------ From: John Frankl Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:47:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eskrima: Re: certificates Certificates, like any diploma, can mean everything or nothing. Put in a more Zen-like frame: "Who signed Tatang's certificate?" John Frankl ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: fools > I don't think there was anything in the post cited to warrant ad hominem > attacks, no matter how oblique. You are correct, it was the long history, the pattern, that I responded to, again. I said it, I stand by it, now we should move on... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 20:11:16 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: for the record Roberto, I do not want to bore the members with issues that re-surface over and over again. So, I will keep my reply to your "claim to fame" simple, direct and in no special order. Remember, everything that took place was under Bakbakan's organizational structure. The certificate you received was "tuklas takay" a TEST of your sincerity initiated by Master Rolly Maximo. Fact, in order to be recognized as an instructor you need to be a member first, your membership was rejected. Therefore, what you call a certificate is null and void. It has absolutely no bearing if it was not sealed, registered and accompanied by the Rites of the Brotherhood and Oath of Allegiance. What is your registration number? Who was the Rites Master and Officials?. A "Tatak Bungo" (Death's Head) patch is given to those members who have achieved Senior status. ALTHOUGH, without a corresponding Certificate of Rank and registration, it is just a patch(BTW..this is directly from our handbook). It was merely a token. As far as a ceremony(?) video, it is highly unlikely that you would have been presented the Certificate and patch in a weeks time. Lastly, I recall your "Tapapagmana" Visitacion Kuntao-Arnis title was superceded by Judge Laura Visitacion Lewis in the early 90's to Vee Jitsu-Te. Imagination can run rampant, so perceive what you want and think what you wish. You are not officially recognized. Your in the Arts, John G. Jacobo BAKBAKAN North American Director ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:08:31 -0700 Subject: eskrima: agreement and a snarl A Howl of Greeting to All: First I'd like to second Todd's thoughts on the police as a legal authority. Certainly, as a practical matter what they think should enter into the equation, but my distinct impression is that they favor citizens as sheep. (I liked that sheep, coyote, rott analogy BTW) Many a time I have seen in the paper or on TV a report of a hero citizen and the police hrumphing "Well, yes he was a hero, but we encourage people to not do that." Second, on another front, several people have brought to my attention that a participant in the most recent Gathering has had himself written up in a knife magazine in a braggadocios kind of way. As a special courtesy he was allowed to participate only in the knife sparring. He then went and had himself written up as "scoring the first three blows!" on Top Dog. There are two problems with this. First, it is demonstrably false. The video clearly shows that the first shots were TD's. This individual's knife teacher has seen the video and reported this to him. The second problem is more important. Even if the claim were true, it violates the code of our Gatherings. Because of the high risk of serious injury in our form of fighting, we have jettisoned "judges, referees, and trophies" and leave it up to the integrity of the fighters to not take shots that would put an opponent in the hospital or reduce his IQ. This code and this behavior cannot exist in an environment of bragging, and is why in our videos the fighters are never identified. If bragging rights were involved, if fighter's reps were at stake, it is inevitable that things will escalate in a way that is contrary to the Dog Brother mission. We are proud of our Gathering of the Pack and we are proud of the way that all can come to play in a non-denominational way in a spirit of growth. Rest assured people that we do not and will not countenance this nonsense. I have conferred with the Council of Elders (Top Dog & Salty Dog) and they concur with my decision. This individual and his cohorts have been disinvited. Grrrr, Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny Guiding Force of the Dog Brothers DBIMA ------------------------------ From: szorn@webtv.net (STEVE ZORN) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 20:01:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: eskrima: Re: Serrada Debate I want to apologize to everyone on the digest for causing such as debate over the Serrada counters. I am not new to martial arts but I am new to Eskrima and I have just been going by what I have read in the Serrada books (Wiley's and Cabiero's),and what I have seen on the Serrada videos (Khalid's and Suro Inay's). I ment no offense to anyone here. It's pretty obvious that the different groups follow different paths. Steve ------------------------------ From: "Robert Masson" Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:09:06 PDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #150 >Gotta agree. It was very choreographed looking. Very stylized, but >I suppose it fit well with the rest of the movie. You can have >actual hits missing (like in a real fight), when you also have them >running up walls while shooting/kicking! > >I think one of the most real looking fight scenes I've seen on the >movies would be in Grose Point Blank between Benny and John Cusack. > It didn't appear choreographed, there were combos, trapping, > strikes that missed...etc. > >I also liked the Filipino knife work in Under Seige... of course it >looked even better before I knew anything about knife fighting. I agree again (Does that mean I am agreeing with myself? *LOL*) The Matrix fight scenes were perfect for the context of the Movie.. It added to the whole Surrealness of the film.. Especially with all the running up the walls and slow-mo stuff.. Beatiful Job by the Director! (BTW folks.. DO SEE THIS MOVIE! Peter Are you Reading this? Get the Class Together and have a Field Trip! And try and Sedate Damian beforehand.. *lol*) It has been a while since I seen Gross Point Blank.. I'll have to rent it again and watch for the fight scenes! *grin* As for my favorite "Portrayal of Martial Arts by a Lead Character" (Hey guys.. .Think we can lobby the Academy for a new Category at the next Oscars? *smile*) I would have to go with the tragically Late Brandon Lee.. His work in Rapid Fire was Superb! I remember seeing it in the Theater and flipping out as he did techniques from different systems.. And of course the whole Kabi Kabong stuff at the beginning was WONDERFUL!.. Ahhh his death was very unfortunate. Rob Masson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: moving on... As many may recall the last time Jeff and I had a 'disagreement' the list was shut down for a few weeks. I really don't have the time to put up with certain comments from certain people, esp when it has all been hashed over previously. In this case the list will remain up, but Jeff is going away. At least for several weeks, maybe longer. As other recent posters know, there is life after getting kicked off this list. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but I do what I do... And thanks for all the supportive e-mail. It is greatly appreciated. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Mike Casto Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #153 << The topic of hidden techniques, Serrada or otherwise, can be an emotionally charged one. I don’t think much is really “hidden”, if anything —it’s all in there, but have you progressed enough to understand it is the question. >> I snipped some really good stuff for brevity's sake (I'll probably type enough to make up for it :-) Nicely put, Alvin. Brings to mind an article by Cass Magda where he relates a comment made by Pendekar Paul DeThouars about the djurus of Bukti Negara Silat. "The djurus are like a bag of flour. You can make many things out of the flour - pies, croissants, donuts, cakes, bread, cookies, etc. but does it say you can make all these things on the bag? No, you have to be shown how to make all these things." To continue this concept, I would say that, once you fully understand the nature and property of the flour, you can come up with your own things to make (i.e.: brownies, gravy, etc) whether someone shows them to you or not. Also, I like chocolate cake, but my wife prefers carrot cake ... both of which can be made with the same bag of flower. For this reason, two people trained by the same instructor in the same art can have very different understandings and methods to their work ... but they'll all have the same underlying concepts. I'm not a Serrada player, but I have an immense amount of respect for the system because of the players I've met and worked with. Consequently, there may be some sort of "Serrada insider" stuff going on that I'm not privy to in this verbal explosion that happened in the past few digests. However, it seems to me that you guys are arguing over what color the bag of flour is instead of nodding your heads sagely and saying, "Yup. That's the same flour." Of course, this is just my opinion and there could be influences that I'm unaware of which are fueling this conflict. I, for one, though, hope it settles soon so we can get on to discussing flour again instead of bags. Mike === Mike Casto Assistant Instructor Asian Fighting Arts Filipino Kali/ 5099 Springboro Pike Indonesian Pentjak Silat Dayton, OH 45439 Phone: (937) 293-5520 URL: http://www.guild-hall.com/afa/ _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #154 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.