From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #155 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Wed, 14 April 1999 Vol 06 : Num 155 In this issue: eskrima: Re: "Kali Illustrisimo" video eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #154 eskrima: Less is more, more or less. eskrima: Re: for the record eskrima: Serrada, or Serrada? eskrima: BABAKAN eskrima: Re: for the record eskrima: Understanding - the key to ending disputes eskrima: Training Soldiers the FMA? eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1050 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:24:32 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: "Kali Illustrisimo" video Hi How can I get a copy of the "Kali Illustrisimo" tapes that's being described? Is it still available? I'm interested in getting a copy. I have never met Antonio Illustrisimo. So I would like to see how he moved. TIA. osculate@geocities.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 23:49:16 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #154 In a message dated 04/14/1999 01:31:55 AM, John Jacobo wrote: >Lastly, I recall your "Tapapagmana" Visitacion Kuntao-Arnis title was >superceded by Judge Laura Visitacion Lewis in the early 90's to Vee Jitsu-Te. >Imagination can run rampant, so perceive what you want and think what you >wish. You are not officially recognized. I post this on the list only because Mr. Jacobo did not supply his e-mail address. I'm not going to inject myself in the debate between Mr. Torres and Mr. Jacobo. Being a practitioner of Vee JJ, I only want to inquire as to who "Judge Laura Visitacion Lewis" is. Call me ignorant or whatever but I have not heard of her. I'm well aware of other folks coming out of or associated with Prof Vee such as Moses Powell, Sugar Crosson, David James etc but not this person. Take care, Brian Johns Columbus Ohio ------------------------------ From: "Virginia Martial Arts" Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 23:58:35 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Less is more, more or less. With the 3 counters thing, I want to be able to defend without thinking about it so I am going to rely on things like those basics. I'll be lucky to remember my name much less technique #101 during a conflict. Keep it simple. Example: A crossblock to Serrada angles 1, 3, and 10 are really the same counter on different lines with some slight variations in position. I dig this, one concept with many applications. What is more important to me is the ability to flow or transition from one to the other. Increasing the size of your database doesn't make this process happen better. Constant practice may. I think a good plan is to be able to counter with stick up inside and outside and stick down inside and outside. I guess that is four counters but not necessarily for each strike. Perhaps for FUN, throw in an inside-outside /outside-inside counter in there where you engage one way and end up another. (Really just combos of the basics above.) Once while at the only seminar I saw of Guro Danny I, he led the group through some basic largo range stroking patterns that he referred to as "your bread and butter". He also added a story about a conversation he had with GM Floro Villabrille where he told Guro I that he won many matches with simple kob kob movements. Tangent: Many years ago I had heard that in GM Angel's early group, the angle you were working on reflected how many years you had been training with him. Rumor? Real Tangent: I'd like to make contact with anyone on the list that has MCSE, MCP, or CCNA status as I hope to gain all someday and would like some guidance. - --- See you in the sticks, Dale ------------------------------ From: Talio Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 00:01:34 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: for the record > > From: > Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 20:11:16 EDT > Subject: eskrima: Re: for the record > > Roberto, I do not want to bore the members with issues that re-surface over > and over again. Your in the Arts, > > John G. Jacobo > BAKBAKAN North American Director You are absolutely correct about boring the members of this forum. But again your information is incorrect and inaccurate. I figured you would pull this, so this is why I did not mention that I also have a Olistrisimo certificate from Tatang himself separate from the one issued by Bakbakan. You have my email address and my school number if you wish to discuss this further. I could go on about handbooks changing and your inaccuracy about Judge Laura Lewis, but this is not the place to discuss this. P.S. Good idea giving certificates to people to test them, and have grand master Ilustrisimo sign them. I could see why your organization is so successful. It has to be at least the best one in Luneta Park. Have a nice day my friend. To Mr. Terry and the rest of the members of this forum I apologies for any inconvenience this thread may have caused. No further discussion will be carried on by me on this list regarding this issue. - -- Salam Hormat, Roberto Torres Talio Self Defense Academy Pencak Silat Perisai Setia (Harimau Sikap Baru) "Iron Sharpens Iron, So One Man Sharpens Another." Proverbs 27:17 "Sebagaimana baja mengasah baja, begitu pula manusia belajar dari sesamanya." Amsal 27:17 ------------------------------ From: "Jose Cabalero" Date: 14 Apr 1999 07:09:33 -0000 Subject: eskrima: Serrada, or Serrada? Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:09:32 MYT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain >The 3 basic counters per angle is simply a structured way to >present Serrada to a beginning student. This way the beginner >doesn't get confused. It works and it works VERY well as a way >to introduce a student to eskrima and to serrada. There is NO >hiding of info. Angel hid nothing from his first students, >in fact they helped him develop his art into what you >experienced 20 years later. > Hello, I am new to the list. Saw this comment which caught my attention. This seems to be the way of our old folks back home. The old master does not, will not and can not teach everything he knows. It is not possible. Usually, the old men has figured out a system where he teaches the representative examples that the student can start practising and then all else is build from there. I suppose 3 is good enough for a start. This has always been the way of the old men. >they helped him develop his art into what you experienced >20 years later. > This is a seldom acknowledged or even known fact. Many masters first learnt the art, then they practiced under the supervision of the master, then they engage in 2 things to improve:- 1) engage in sparring or some matches 2) teach students My old folks told me that most master only reach true maturity about 45 - 50 years old. With lots of help from students and enemies. From what you described, it appears this to be the case of your teacher. The teacher usually hones his skills by teaching and sparring with students. That is how subtlety is attained and seemingly unlimited store of knowledge and 'answer for everything' the students throw at him. Sharp students know what is going on after a long while. Those not so discerning never realised that the master was making it up and developing it all on the run. Simultaneous teaching, answering and learning. Thus, your view that the old students helped to develope your master's. The later generation should be grateful and respectful to the older generations. Skillful fighters do come from all generations of a master's students though. Yours respectfully, Jose ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Drew Zimba Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 07:41:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: BABAKAN ********** Remember, everything that took place was under Bakbakan's organizational structure. The certificate you received was "tuklas takay" a TEST of your sincerity initiated by Master Rolly Maximo. Fact, in order to be recognized as an instructor you need to be a member first, your membership was rejected. Therefore, what you call a certificate is null and void. It has absolutely no bearing if it was not sealed, registered and accompanied by the Rites of the Brotherhood and Oath of Allegiance. What is your registration number? Who was the Rites Master and Officials?. A "Tatak Bungo" (Death's Head) patch is given to those members who have achieved Senior status. ALTHOUGH, without a corresponding Certificate of Rank and registration, it is just a patch(BTW..this is directly from our handbook). It was merely a token. As far as a ceremony(?) video, it is highly unlikely that you would have been presented the Certificate and patch in a weeks time. ************** This included with that signed by him but only if those aren't signed first before a number is recorded. Seems like a system *designed* to create political debate (to me, anyway). Probably not a good thing for the arts, in the long run. I find it interesting that BABAKAN keeps such loose control on its various pieces and parts of it's "official" recognition package. What the hell is happening in that organization, anyway?? ********* Lastly, I recall your "Tapapagmana" Visitacion Kuntao-Arnis title was superceded by Judge Laura Visitacion Lewis in the early 90's to Vee Jitsu-Te. Imagination can run rampant, so perceive what you want and think what you wish. You are not officially recognized. ************** HUH?? This means what, exactly? _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "David W. Fulton" Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:46:43 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: for the record At 09:50 PM 4/13/99 -0400, John Jacobo wrote: > >Roberto, I do not want to bore the members with issues that re-surface over >and over again. So, I will keep my reply to your "claim to fame" simple, >direct and in no special order. Remember, everything that took place was >under Bakbakan's organizational structure. The certificate you received was >"tuklas takay" a TEST of your sincerity initiated by Master Rolly Maximo. >Fact, in order to be recognized as an instructor you need to be a member >first, your membership was rejected. Therefore, what you call a certificate >is null and void. It has absolutely no bearing if it was not sealed, >registered and accompanied by the Rites of the Brotherhood and Oath of >Allegiance. What is your registration number? Who was the Rites Master and >Officials?. A "Tatak Bungo" (Death's Head) patch is given to those members >who have achieved Senior status. ALTHOUGH, without a corresponding >Certificate of Rank and registration, it is just a patch(BTW..this is >directly from our handbook). It was merely a token. As far as a ceremony(?) >video, it is highly unlikely that you would have been presented the >Certificate and patch in a weeks time. Maybe I shouldn't even ask, since I'd rather not hear more of this bickering, and I have no part in this situation except as a curious observer. However, there is a question begging to be answered, if only for my own curiosity. John, you said Roberto Torres was given the Kali Ilustrisimo certificate to test his sincerity. Would the Bakbakan give a guro certificate to an individual, who does not have the skill & knowledge required to teach and represent the system, just to test their sincerity? Dave dwf@computerpackages.com ------------------------------ From: "Al \"Got This Fish On The Move\"" Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:42:06 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Understanding - the key to ending disputes Recent system technique disputes prompt me to think about major points that have been made by several Guros on the digest that should be repeated. If one to read and understand the following statements there would be less disputes. "I believe people think that the art is just a set of movements, whereas we've been taught that the art is a living entity that lives in all of us" - - Guro Bob Manalo "..I don't think much is really "hidden", if anything — it's all in there, but have you progressed enough to understand it is the question. What is different from student to student is the way we use the techniques or an aspect of them. ...... but it is also likely that the only limitations on our skill are imposed by our dedication and training — or lack thereof. - Advanced Guro Alvin Albano "..because I have learned over several years that the practitioner makes the style, not the other way around. No system is unbeatable, only the fighters themselves. While I believe you should have pride in your system, you must be humble too." - Sir Myles Watling Does an older brother disrespect or fight his brother because his parents chose to have another child? Is it the parents' desire for their children to fight? Both brothers are taught by their parents to walk, talk, and behave yet do they both do these things in the same way? Does one student disrespect or fight another student because his teacher chose to teach another student? Is it or was it their teacher's desire for them to fight among each other? Both students learn the same techniques yet do they execute them the same way? The Brotherhood of FMA's? Respectfully, Al Sardinas Student of Garimot System of Arnis ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:41:36 EDT Subject: eskrima: Training Soldiers the FMA? All of this speculation about the moral aspects of teaching martial arts to=20 soldiers kind of amuses me. How does someone=92s profession give you the rig= ht=20 to deny them training? What makes you morally superior? Is it because your=20 skills are so lethal you couldn=92t in good conscience teach them to a soldi= er?=20 Couldn=92t a soldier say that the combat skills he knows endow him with as=20 great a responsibility and moral obligation as the knowledge of any martial=20 artist? Martial Arts training does not make you any more morally superior=20 than someone who goes to church every sunday but is a miserable bastard the=20 rest of the week. There=92s plenty of high ranking martial artists I know wi= th=20 questionable morals, and its amusing that they could be determining who=20 should be eligible to learn the "deadly fighting arts" they know. I wouldn= =92t=20 train someone if I thought they were going to use the skills for illegal=20 activity, but to make moral judgements about a persons profession is going a=20 little to far. Most of you people are making your judgements based on=20 political beliefs and personal objections about a persons job and not about=20 the person himself. If I came in off the street, and you thought I was an OK=20 guy and started training me, but found out later I was a SEAL, would you kic= k=20 me out? I believe a lot of this "I possess the holy grail, and will train=20 only the righteous" attitude comes from the old days of the martial arts whe= n=20 techniques needed to be guarded from rival schools/tribes. Lets judge people=20 by their actions. Perhaps some martial artists could benefit from military=20 service. They could learn about self-sacrifice, teamwork, dedication, loyalt= y=20 and discipline. Instead of learning martial arts to make you a better=20 soldier, perhaps military training could make you a better martial artist. Tom Gerace P.S. I don=92t know why "Special Forces" status should make a difference. Th= ey=20 are just servicemen with specialized jobs. ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #155 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.