From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #157 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Thurs, 15 April 1999 Vol 06 : Num 157 In this issue: eskrima: "Garimot" Footwork and Largo Mano eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #156 eskrima: moving on... eskrima: Ray... quit being a baby... eskrima: Re: what happened eskrima: Counters eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1050 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lonnie Pollard Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:12:26 -0400 Subject: eskrima: "Garimot" Footwork and Largo Mano (Let me first appologize to Tuhon McGrath for the lengthy delay in my being able to send a response to the question he posed. The week before last, I was out due to a death in the family, and then last Tuesday I was back and typed up what follows below, and then right before sending, our SMTP mail server crashed hard via a hardware failure. I wasn't able to get it back into operation until late last Wednesday, and then for the past week I've been buried under with projects. I'm one of only two full-time network technicians responsible for a network of approx. 1600 workstations and 20+ servers, and more projects coming at us than we've yet seen. To say the least, we can use a vacation. I was way behind in my reading of the E-D as it was, and then this week I stopped receiving mail through the main postoffice, apparently due to something that has been switched in the district mail system, so I don't know where the discussions have gone. I don't even know if I'm still on the E-D. Hopefully this message makes it through and is posted. Anyone who wishes to write to me over the next week or two can reach me at lonpolla@mail.north.mdcc.edu. What follows was written on Tuesday, 4/6/99) ^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^- There was a death in the family early last week, and as such I am way behind with my e-mail, and everything else for that matter. I'm still not quite fully functional, but there are a couple of topics I wanted to try to write about this week. First up: in E-D #127, Tuhon McGrath gave an interesting post that I was enjoying and that caught my curiosity, and then toward the end I was flattered when I saw his asking for my input concerning the "Garimot" footwork and largo mano. I will try to do the best I can in what follows. >I have a question for Lonnie Pollard. I really liked your descriptions of >the Garimot system and your teacher's largo range abilities. While I don't >expect you to give all your secrets away over the internet, I was wondering >if you could tell us if any of the footwork techniques you described are >similar to the example I gave above? The human body has only a finite number >of ways of moving, so I am guessing that there must be some similarities. > Some of the shapes I am familiar with include triangle, X, diamond, circles, and a couple of others. As for whether these shapes are used similarly for footwork, my curiosity would be with how you use these shapes. I would have to see several things, including seeing the feet for other clues. For instance, I've elsewhere seen sometimes where something might be called triangular footwork by some, but in the Garimot system it would not be, as the "Garimot" system means something a bit different by "triangular footwork". Please don't anyone see that as saying there is something wrong, but rather different. In the early stage, we practice on a shape using seven main footwork positions, with the emphasis on accurate placement and angle of feet, and body mechanics such that the body works as one unit, and with how the whole lower body is used to move the body in conjunction with the upper body, and with certain concepts/types of footwork. (Later the advanced students learn twelve footwork through learning the Doce Pares of Laguna. Gat Puno Abon has demonstrated the twelve while standing in one position, but, while the advanced students caught on to what he was doing, including some of the implications, I was in the land of duh. He broke it down and then I was able to partially see, but it was still way over my head for the most part.) None of the footwork I've been exposed to is used toward any type of aerobic/fast movement, except one drill that uses explosive movement, but the purpose in this case is to develop striking while moving explosively in various directions. To what I see, accuracy of movement, coordination of upper and lower body, etc. is seen as more important in the developement of footwork than is speed. Note: If a student were to stop there with practicing this "shape" based footwork, they would not have learned any largo mano. Largo mano comes after developing this base, and is a different beast entirely. Largo mano uses sometimes elaborate patterns, and a body of concepts and principles geared toward relations of positions. Although the patterns might be on the ground, i.e. x and y axis, the z axis is important also. Also significant is that it has to be practiced with a partner (first one, but eventually multiple) with everything relative to the partner. It is like the physics concept that movement and position exist only in relation to another body. Largo mano must be practiced you in relation to an opponent. One's position is only a position "in relation to." As for the largo mano shapes, they look meaningless until after a long time of practicing, explanation, and testing and experimenting. Otherwise they are just patterns and shapes. They are only a tool. Some of the forms are also used for learning Largo mano, but it is important to remember that again one could practice the forms without learning any largo mano. In fact, the forms are taught initially without largo mano, and then after sufficient learning the largo mano is added in. It depends very much on how they are practiced and what the student is aware of/has been taught. Note that "forms" is likely the wrong word to use, but the word will have to do for now since it is the only one I can think of. Something else that I've noticed in studying the "Garimot" system is that economy of motion extends to the feet. We are told that every movement of the feet should have a purpose, and that there should not be needless movement of the feet. Most footwork that I see now seems to me wasteful in movement, aside from being antithetical to largo mano, but that's merely an opinion and nothing more. Also, before I give the wrong impression, let me explain that we practice almost all striking while in motion, and I'm realizing that the training has us spend almost as much time stiking while moving backward as striking while moving forward. Also we strike with other movements, including circular, herrada, kneeling, etc. Striking while standing still is easy, yet striking while in motion is more difficult, especially as far as doing it well/right. It's just a theory I have. Well, I'm wandering off topic again. Back on track. Actually, in my earlier posts on largo mano, I said way too much already. There were far too many clues in there that had someone from another system posted those words, I would have known immediately what they were getting at and that they have largo mano, and then my curiosity would be with how extensive and developed it is. I would wonder just how many elements they were aware of. I've been told there were other systems in Laguna, unknown in the US, that had some largo mano, but from my understanding the "Garimot" system pushed the envelope, and thus the reason others in Laguna thought that the Baet's must have something magical that they were adding into their largo mano. But such was not the case. It was just a technological evolution or development. It is just one more jewel in the "Garimot" system, one jewel amongst too many to count. Interestingly, in the process of writing about largo mano, my largo mano actually got better. Largo mano is very cerebral, and thus part of its appeal to me. Keep in mind that while true I've been a diligent student in the "Garimot" system for almost two years, I'm not certified and thus not qualified to express anything beyond my own observations, opinions, and understandings. I'm one of the infants in the system, so don't take my word as even close to gospel. Also, I've been walking a fine line too much lately in possibly sharing too much in my posts, and although Gat Puno Abon has not objected, I think it would be unfair for me to go any further without speaking to him first before doing so. So, I will have to refrain from going into further detail for now. More posts to follow. Lonnie ------------------------------ From: "David Eke" Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:27:35 +1000 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #156 >In summary, being involved with this list takes a lot of time and energy. I >seldom ask for anything other than that we all get along and stay somewhat >on topic. However certain people have made and make this job less fun for >me. Some folks even make it a real chore... > >Did I over react? Maybe. Do you all know the entire years long story? No. >If you did would it make a difference? Maybe, maybe not. > >So, this isn't a chance to vote Yeah, right on ! If people think administering a list server is fun, just try running your own. If someone comes into my house as a guest and starts being a pain I'll throw them out and it's the same on the list. Ray runs and owns the list. Quite a few posts ago someone wanted to know what "Palakaw" was. In Cebuano it means transfering information e.g. Person A tells a story to Person B who repeats it to Person C they are said to be doing Palakaw. In Velez Balintawak it's described as "Method of Teaching" and its effectively the last stage of instruction. It's the stage where you teach a student to teach and in Velez Balintawak it's all one on one (or should be). Some people get confused and think that Palakaw is a form of free style sparring but it's not. It's an instructor guiding a student through a different set of moves. Even in Doce Pares if you spar with Cacoy you are not really sparring, he remains in total control and he does with you what he will. Probably hes actually leading you through a series of moves trying to teach or reinforce a particular concept (sometimes painfully). For most the difference between free style sparring and Palakaw is very subtle I have a feeling that there is a move (this does not come from Cacoy) in the Doce Pares to push the idea of Palakaw to one side. It's easier to teach a class of 30 some form then Palakaw as it needs to be one on one. You can't simply match two similar grade students together and get them to do Palakaw as like in dance one of them needs to lead. It's why the sportive aspects of escrima are promoted so much in the Doce Pares. It's easier to get their students to pad up and bash away at one another then to teach the Palakaw. Another reason why Palakaw is pushed aside is that many instructors can't do it. One thing that all instructors of any style of escrima should be able to do is "play" with another instructor. What I mean by "play" is a type of controlled free style sparring where you give and take techniques. Of course the major problem is that you need to leave your 'ego at home' It's interesting that many people that call themselves instructors don't seem to be able to "play" David ------------------------------ From: "Rudolf Kimbel (100432.650@compuserve.com)" <100432.650@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:06:51 -0400 Subject: eskrima: moving on... to:INTERNET:eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Sorry folks, but I guess you're misunderstanding this list. Ray spend HIS time, money and nerves to keep us connected. This is like hosting a 'eskrima friends' gathering in your living room every evening, cleaning up afterwards, ... If someone pisses you off at your place, you tell him to stay away, right? Since this IS Ray's (virtual) place, that's his right. If any of you want to host a list, (and I know you don't want to), you might do it 'better', (though I don't believe you would). It's Ray's full right to simply kick us all out, shut down the list, relax, and live happily ever after. So let's just thank Ray for doing the list for us all, respect it as 'his place', and move on ... to share our interrest in FMA. Rudolf. ------------------------------ From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Guro_Don_Mu=F1iz?=" Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:01:54 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Ray... quit being a baby... Is that what you do when someone doesn't agree with you, take them off the subscriber's list? Well, hold on there! If this would have been a disagreement between two of the members on the and someone would have written you and asked, "Hey, can you tyake this guy off the E-D list, I don't agree with them!" I suppose you'd do that, right? Ray... c'mon! People on the list will have differences of opinion about their art and instructors at times. you usually are the cool head, what happened? - -guro Don ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:27:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Re: what happened > you usually are the cool head, what happened? Reread the last issue. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Michael Koblic Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 03:32:24 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Counters I do not wish to enrage anybody further but perhaps somebody (Guro Crafty?) could explain to this martial hack (artist is too strong a word) the following: What is the purpose of learning multiple responses to a single attack? I understand that in a stressful situation it is better to rely on one or two of instinctive responses rather than freeze while selecting the most appropriate of a dozen or so counters. Watching the DB1 tapes set responses to an attack are never mentioned. Is this a difference between the Art and the practical application? Is this something one only appreciates as one reaches the very top of the art? Mike Koblic, Quesnel BC ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #157 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. 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