From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #163 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Mon, 19 April 1999 Vol 06 : Num 163 In this issue: eskrima: thrust or slash? eskrima: Re: GM Canete Seminar eskrima: RE: Knife wounds eskrima: Surviving a Knife Fight eskrima: Leo Espinosa eskrima: RE: Pinoy boxers eskrima: I don't get it!! eskrima: sparring with Remy eskrima: effectiveness eskrima: The clown and the jester eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #162 eskrima: New Mailing List eskrima: knife wounds eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1050+ members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 20:42:22 EDT Subject: eskrima: thrust or slash? Hello to all on the digest. Interesting thread I hope that it develops and i`m very interested to see everyones responses. I was taught that a slash will cut to the bone and is very messy with alot of blood involved and on a mental level it`s an advantage, but unless you cut a major artery or slash the throat the person isn`t gonna` die right away. How much more if he is intent on taking your life, with the mindset of kill or be killed no one will go down easily. Especially if the attack is toward random as opposed to specific targets of the body. I think that I would take my chances with a stab to a vital organ. The first time that I was stabbed in the forearm during a fight I knew that I had been stabbed but it did`nt matter, it did`nt hurt and it did`nt really slow me down at all. The following two weeks after the fight I knew it was there. But at the point in time that it should have mattered during the fight it did`nt because it was a stab at a random target. If he had stabbed me in the heart chances are that you would`nt be reading this post right now. However i`ve seen people in the Philippines get stabbed through the eyes, in the back of the head, in the side of the head and throat and within less than a minute they were laying on the ground dead or dieing. The majority of the knife fights that I saw in Mindanao ( 2 yrs. worth of sundays watching pinoys get drunk on tuba and insult one another with the situation escalating into a knife or machete fight) ended with one dead and the other severely wounded, or both dead. I can think of only one that ended truely in the favor of one of the two fighters and that was because someone, a relative or friend, jumped out of the small crowd and slashed the throat of the other person and before he realized what had happened it was too late. So I learned by watching that in a knife fight you do what you have to do as fast as possible and you leave. You don`t hang around waving at your fans, just as quick as you take a life it can be taken from you. As far as stabbing goes it`s not 'that' you stab as 'where' you stab. If you can stab through the heart of your opponent chances are pretty good that within the next couple of minutes he won`t be with you any longer. That`s if you don`t hang your blade up in his chest cavity accidently hitting bone and having your hand slip up the blade and almost cutting your thumb off. Also If you stab someone in the side of the throat you will achieve one of two things you`ll sever the 'C' artery or you`ll stab a little diagonal down which is great as well because you will most likely puncture and collapse a lung. When I saw this happen in the philippines the lung in itself was`nt the end of the fight but it distracted the guy well enough that the other was able to stab him through the eye straight into his brain killing him in seconds. Then as soon as the guy hit the ground the guy was off in the other direction to go and get stitched up. People in general fear being stabbed or cut to death with a knife mostly because it is a painful death that you will live long enough to experience and all the blood that gets spread about seems to make it more unbearable to those involved as well as those that witness it first hand. It`s not a pretty sight to see someone die by knife but it stands as a constant reminder that it may be you one day so you try and take things on a realistic level. Punong Guro Sulite would tell me time and time again that the way that you train has to brush up against reality to be effective in a life threatening situation. If you`ve trained poorly than you will fight poorly. The way that you train is indicative of the way that you will fight. I think that it`s not so much what you train as how you train. Your mindset, approach, and determination are the things that will allow you the opportunities to survive a fight to the death. If this isn`t enough than you do it the pilipino way you at least live long enough to take out the guy that just killed you... Always remember that you are only as effective as you are at the moment so keep this in mind when you`ve had too much to drink or when you`ve eaten so much that you can barely walk or when you sleep so heavily that you don`t hear someone slip through your window at night. In the Words of Tuhon Leo T. Gaje you have to be ready to defend your life 24 hours a day for the one moment that you are not prepared will most likely be the moment that it`s called for... Punong Guro Sulite taught me a progression that he called patayan (to fight to the death). Involved are the most preffered targets to kill with a knife in the quickest span of time. Nothing is for sure because a man will live until the time that he gives up and takes his last breath. Some people have more will to live and some have less. As long as the person is alive he can hurt you so you take nothing for granted. The other part of the equation is do you have the ability to use a knife or anything else to take the life of another. The last place that you want to answer that question is during a knife fight. So if you carry a blade you had better know that you will use it or don`t carry it. I guess that`s why Punong Guro Sulite would`nt carry a knife because he had used it before and would use it again... If you play with the blade your gonna` get bit it`s not a matter of if but when and how bad... KaliDave@aol.com Lameco Eskrima Orehenal, Guro Dave Gould. ------------------------------ From: "Dave Huang" Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 19:19:04 PDT Subject: eskrima: Re: GM Canete Seminar CORRECTION: "GM Diony embodies a lifetime of devotion to the FMA regardless of being a Doce Pares practitioner or not. He has a tremendous amount of technical skill, and is a gentleman in every sense of the word." This came out wrong, I meant to say that GM Diony embodies a lifetime of devotion to FMA. You well get something out of the seminar regardless whether you are a Doce Pares practitioner or not. Thanks Dave _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Jeffrey Monaghan" Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 19:37:23 -0700 Subject: eskrima: RE: Knife wounds I would say that I have probably seen more knife and gun wounds than Paul Vunac. I worked on the Trauma Team in the ER for four years and we had our regular sat night gun and knife club members. I was responsible for cleaning wounds, controlling bleeding, prep and assisting the surgeons in repairing the wounds. There is no hard fast rule. I have seen a guy walk in with fourteen knife wounds to the chest with a butcher knife only to spend night in ICU and be released a day later or a guy come in with dead with one small puncture wound. Generally puncture wounds to the chest were the most severe because they usually caused a collapsed lung (most common), some of the people walked in and some were brought by ambulance. Occasionally someone would be brought in dead with a nicked aorta or punctured heart, but the majority of the serious wounds were punctured lungs or the occasional stomach wound. The worst slash injury that I saw was a guy, lost his intestines... came in with them resting on top of him (very messy)in a pile. The people with slash wounds bled the most but the usually only required lots of stitches. One guy died because he was slashed across the throat with a broken bottle, and died within minutes (the paramedics arrived about two minutes after it happened, they were flagged down as they were driving by someone who saw it happen). I don't think there are any hard fast rules as to if a particular type of wound will incapacitate someone immediately or not. Head wounds do not cause constriction of blood to the brain. Think about it, if a head wound caused the blood flow to decrease then what would be the point? The body's control mechanism is the brain. So the body's regulatory control systems would stop functioning = nothing causing breathing, controlling heart rate or the vigor of the contractions, blood vessel control, etc. Does this sound like a survival mechanism? Actually several conditions are caused by internal bleeding in the brain that doesn't stop. Subdural hematomas, etc. Jeff Monaghan ------------------------------ From: "Robert Masson" Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 19:58:29 PDT Subject: eskrima: Surviving a Knife Fight Ok.. A topic I cannot resist throwing my 2 cents worth into.. Knife Attacks and surviving them.. First let me qualify this by saying that I have never been in a REAL knifefight so it may disqualify my own experiences.. But I will cover them at the end.. Now..Three perspectives from my instructors: Perp #1.. From my first instructor Rob Doley, Associate Instructor under Guru Dan: The first rule about knife fighting is expect to get cut, expose only those areas whwere a cut is survivable (exteriors of arms) and NEVER look down.. The sight of your own blood will do you in long before the wound will.. If you can still move you are still alive.. Keep moving until you cannot.. Perp # 2.. From my last instructor Gilles Jaillet, Arnis Instructor under Dante Allumbra, Modern Arnis and RCMP Officer and Unarmed Cobat Instructor.. He has been cut in a real knife situation.. and he really was not affected until after he got the guy "cuffed & stuffed".. Needed a few stitches and a few thanks to the gods for his Arnis Training.. Lesson learned.. expose the places you can survive the cut.. Perp # 3.. From my Silat Instructor Hario Damar, Nusantara Silat.. Peter and I were playing with some knife drills, back and forth, hubad dubad with some neat variations.. looking very nice and very proud of ourselves.. My instructor (Not a practitioner of the Stick Arts) says that there are some things you cannot defend against.. I bite and ask him to show me.. He picks up a blade, quickly walks right into my chest with his free arm bent like a plough and as I am trying to deal with this damn arm I feel the cool aluminum of the practice blade on my mow humbled white tummy.. I loose.... My perspective.. (as gleaned from my most generous instructors).. You can survive the knife fight if you refuse to die.. To fight on and use your training and DON'T LOOK DOWN.. Expose only those areas you can survive getting cut on and DON'T LOOK DOWN.. And more importantly.. RUN.. Run like HELL.. Forget about trying to dodge the knife.. Just don't be THERE... It only takes ONE good cut to turn you into a statistic.. Ok.. Off my soapbox.. Deep Bow to all.. Thank you for your time.. Ray.. Helluva a Job Man... Thanks for giving us this forum... Rob Masson, Boston, MA ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: tenrec Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 04:02:22 +0100 Subject: eskrima: Leo Espinosa Herr John Frankl wrote: "Espinosa's a Negro from the Island of Cebu, with a honey of a left jab. He shoots his left straight out, and snaps it back the instant it lands. Swish, swish--you can't imagine how fast he snaps back that arm! Yes I there is a boxer by that name, but I wouldn't call him a negro... tenrec tenrec@avcorner.com ------------------------------ From: gat Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 20:34:52 -0700 Subject: eskrima: RE: Pinoy boxers From: John Frankl Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 15:00:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eskrima: Pinoy boxers A couple of thoughts/points:=20 1. Does anyone know if Leo Espinosa is a real fighter? Indeed, Leo Espinosa was a very popular Philippine fighter back in the = 1960's, I believe. My father and uncles remember him fondly as a tough = and gritty boxer. I believe he was also an Asian Champion during his = era. His son, Luisito, continues on the boxing tradition in his = family---he is currently the reigning WBC Featherweight Champion of the = World having recently defended his title by destroying former US Olympic = Gold medalist Kennedy McKinney (who is no slouch) in 2 rounds. 2. The bending back at the waist is classic Ali AND classical elastico--any thoughts? Many articles have been written regarding the comparisons between the = Filipino arts and the Boxing styles of the modern area. Modern boxers = duck, bob and weave with their upper body more and have instituted other = angled punches like the uppercut (believed to be taken from the figure 8 = movements of many stick fighting systems) into their arsenal. This = vastly differed from the standup, bare knuckled era of the late 19th and = early 20th century. The great Filipino World Champion Gabriel "Flash" = Elorde was a known Eskrimador and some have even postulated that = Muhammed Ali learned a few of Elorde's moves when they met with one = another while Ali was preparing to fight Joe Frazier in their now = classic "Thrilla' In Manila" battle. Gerrard (gat@oz.net) ------------------------------ From: Rocky Pasiwk Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 00:08:31 -0700 Subject: eskrima: I don't get it!! Neil (Numb nuts) Wrote: > First I agree with Ray. Second I think everyone has the right to speak > their mind unless what is on their mind is yelling "fire" in a crowded > theatre. that aside. I was wondering if Rocky is a personal friend of Guro > Dan. Was he given special permision to refer to him as "Danny." As I > understand it he prefers Guro Dan from his students. Since Rocky isn't one > of those, maybe Mr. Inosanto would be more proper or Dan. I know there are > many references to him in the past as Danny but he tries to make him less by > using very familiar and maybe immature version of his surname. > > I am sure that in different times even that would be cause for a challenge. > Rocky, do you tolerate people demeaning the people you respect? do you > repect others? > > I don't mean to reignite this issue, but maybe Rocky-doodle (the best I > could come up with) should just take about technique for a while. > > Neil > I don't get it, now I am being disrespectful, because I call him Danny, someone correct me is his name not Danny?? I have in the past referred to him as Master Innosanto, out of respect, but I found out he didn't like the term Master, so his parents named him Danny, so I figure what the hell, my brother n laws name is Danny are you insinuating there is something wrong with the name Danny, its on his books, and on the flyers, ( one of which I have posted in my club for students interested). Generally most people don't like to be called Mr. makes them feel old or something I know I don't like it. As for Guru I rarely use the term, even for myself, always makes me think of some sixties dude sitting under a crystal trying to make peice with his inner self , just personal preference I guess. As far is a personal friend, no I am not. This morning I had breakfast with Remy Presas and Ted Buot both Grand Masters, and guess what I called them Skippy, that's right I called them Ted and Remy, Ted likes his name Ted, its what his parents named him so its what I call him, same for Remy. If I were in an official class with any of them I would probably call them master or Guru if that's what they want. Mr. Neil, Big Neil, Little Neil, The Neilmyster, Neilaroosky, Neilarooney, ( I have more but lets not embarrass your Mama) what ever you choose to be called, you seem to have a problem, with Danny's name, now if I were a worshipper I would find your problem with his name much more offensive than, my stating he wasn't Christ like. And another thing Mr. Neil if my daughter would have been a boy I was going to name him Danny, now your telling me you there's something wrong with that name. So you personally attack me ( RAY where are you ) then my son that I hope to have some day, well all I got to say to you is YOUR MAMA!! As far as calling someone by their first name is the same is a challenge, never heard of that one, all got to to say to that is, NEIL NEIL NEIL NEIL NEIL NEIL, where do I send the plane ticket NEIL. Respectfully: You can call me Rock, Rocko, Roc, the Rock, Big Rock, and the girls only ( Sorry Neil) Daddy Rock, Big Daddy Rocky, Love Master Rock, and the ever popular OH GOD ROCKY OH GOD!!! ------------------------------ From: Rocky Pasiwk Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 00:29:32 -0700 Subject: eskrima: sparring with Remy Ok back to FMA stuff, I had the chance to do some training with Remy, excuse me MR. Presas this evening, I haven't done much with him in the last 5 years other than argue and fight, but Ted...Mr. Buot has been trying to be a peace negotiator between us , which I must admit is probably tough since we both tend to be stubborn sometimes. Any ways I really wish he would do more of his combat stuff with advanced students, in his mid 60s' he is still lightning fast when he wants to be. And its a shame he doesn't show more of it. When he's fired up he can sure put some fear into you when you play with him. You can tell he really has done this stuff for real. I realize Modern Arnis is his bread and butter, but his Version of Balintawak is awesome his power is second to none, it felt really good to move with him again. I know that Modern Arnis gets a bad rap from many on this list, I know there's a lot of strange things ( Rank) that goes on, but if some of you advanced guys' ever get a chance to introduce yourselves to him, and talk about his past fighting days, and can get him to show you his fighting style, I think even the hard core guys would be surprised. He really is the one of last of the old fighters left. Mr. Rocky Pasiwk ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 01:25:41 EDT Subject: eskrima: effectiveness In a message dated 99-04-18 18:34:27 EDT, you write: << Knife fighting is something that must be experienced to be effective. >> From Animal If you want to call anus puckering terror effective then yeeessssss I will say it puts a totally different slant on the subject. ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 23:19:13 -0700 Subject: eskrima: The clown and the jester A Howl etc: Neil wrote: "That aside, I was wondering if Rocky is a personal friend of Guro Dan. Was he given special permission to refer to him as "Danny." As I understand it he prefers Guro Dan from his students. Since Rocky isn't one of those, maybe Mr. Inosanto would be more proper or Dan. I know there are many references to him in the past as Danny but he tries to make him less by using very familiar and maybe immature version of his surname. I am sure that in different times even that would be cause for a challenge. Rocky, do you tolerate people demeaning the people you respect? do you respect others?" If I may say, Rocky is this Digest's jester. (No doubt some find that sometimes he crosses over the line into being a clown) His affectations to the contrary, he is not as dumb as he pretends. Sometimes he even spells words correctly on one day that he misspells on another day. He seems to be bored and in need of attention of late, so he writes so as to provoke. Here the technique this time seems to be based around the fact that there is considerable ambiguity in the code of how people should be addressed. For example, in conversation I used to call GM Angel Cabales "Angel" without having any intention of disrespect whatsoever-- although when I met him at the San Jose Nationals in 1988 (he interviewed for us and some of this will appear in the second DB series) I certainly didn't call him Angle to his face-- that would have felt disrespectful-- perhaps his age (70 or 71 at the time I think) entered into it as well as the respect due for his contributions to the art. When Bill McGrath talks about street crime and self-defense, it resonates with me as a fellow ex-New Yorker. Unless you've lived in NYC or certain other places, you may not understand the experience to which he speaks of dealing with muggers who have honed the art of hunting their prey and how it informs his perspective. Thus, although he's Tuhon to his students, to me he is a fellow ex-New Yorker who is 8 years my junior and "Bill" is what feels natural. And I confess that I like it when someone chooses to call me "Guro", but I don't take it amiss if they don't. My point is this: the code in these things is not necessarily clear or simple. That said, the usage of "Danny" these days seems to come from certain elements of the Jun Fan JKD crowd using phrases of pseudo familiarity and pseudo good will such as "With the best of intentions, Danny has confused people about JKD by teaching FMA" etc. Thus, given Rock's recent remembrances of his resentments, it is perfect for him to put "Danny" side by side with "GM Gaje" to see if he can get a rise out of someone and manipulate the ambiguity of the code in these matters to the end of giving himself an excuse to return to ranting about riding in the slipstream of comets. The technique is all the more effective by mixing it in with agreeing with a point in favor of Guro I. Although I can readily understand Neil's response, it is exactly what Rock was hoping to provoke and merely serves to temporarily alleviate his boredom. My sense of it is that it is not so much that he is against Guro I. as he is envious of the respect in which he is held by so many. That some get a bit carried away sometimes is not on point. In his previous rant he wrote that if he had "followers" like Guro I's, then he would have their cars, money and women-- or something to that effect. What he misses is that that is exactly why he doesn't have the followers he wants-- and thus is bored. Woof, Crafty ------------------------------ From: "David Eke" Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:42:48 +1000 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #162 I was wondering if Rocky is a personal friend of Guro >Dan. Was he given special permision to refer to him as "Danny." As I >understand it he prefers Guro Dan from his students. Since Rocky isn't one >of those, maybe Mr. Inosanto would be more proper or Dan This is a bit pedantic isn't it. Clearly there was no disrespect intended by Rocky and I'm sure Guro Dan will not mind. Still on the topic of "playing" there is probably a number of reasons why Guro Dan didn't look quite so good. Like dancing you generally let someone lead and Guro Dan being the respectful person he is probably let Tuhon Gaje lead. This means you don't look so sharp because you are always responding to somone else's leads. Another reason is that it's difficult to get beyond the teacher pupil relationship no matter how experienced you are. >1. Does anyone know if Leo Espinosa is a real fighter His full name is Luisito Espinosa. Fight record 44-7 (23 KOs). He's a Featherweight and has won WBC Featherweight WBA Bantamweight titles >2. The bending back at the waist is classic Ali AND classical >elastico--any thoughts? Pinoy boxers are known for their speed, as for bending at the waist I'd have to watch a video. I know it works for some but I'm not heavily into bending at the waist (or teaching others to bend at the waist) as it leaves them a bit off balance and on the back foot. The "peek a boo" approach which Tyson used to great effect earlier in his career is better (or at least I think so). I suppose it depends on the style of boxer. David ------------------------------ From: Robbie Trinidad Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:46:46 +0800 Subject: eskrima: New Mailing List Mabuhay! I'm pleased to announce that the Pinoy Eskrima/Arnis/Kali mailing list (peak-l) is now up and running. The peak-l mailing list is for practitioners of Eskrima/Arnis/Kali who reside, or are based in the Philippines. Although the list is meant for practitioners in the Philippines, anyone who is interested in the art can join. To join the list, send an empty e-mail message to: peak-l-subscribe@egroups.com Or you can visit the following web pages: http://www2.mozcom.com/~deadlock/peak-l.html http://www.egroups.com/group/peak-l/info.html Hope to see you there! - -- ][=====================================================================][ ][ Roberto B. Trinidad | E-mail: deadlock@mozcom.com ][ ][ Freelance 3D/2D GF/X artist | My home page is at: _ ][ ][ & desktop videographer | http://www2.mozcom.com/~deadlock/_ // ][ ][ Quezon City, Philippines | Member: Team AMIGA \X/ ][ ][---------------------------------------------------------------------][ ][ "He who is aware of his own weakness will remain master of himself ][ ][ in any situation; only a true weakling is capable of true courage."][ ][ --- Gichin Funakoshi --- ][ ][=====================================================================][ ------------------------------ From: Jay_Swan@flannet.middlebury.edu (Jay Swan) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:54:41 -0500 Subject: eskrima: knife wounds Sid writes: >I was looking recently at the Hockheim book on knife fighting and he is of >the belief that the human body doesn't neccesarily collapse after taking a >couple of knife wounds. If I recall the Paul Vunak videos he was of the >opinion that knife wounds combined with the adrenaline of combat will cause a >person to collapse in a very short period of time. Can some suggest which >view is closer to the truth? Have their been any medical studies? What >variables are involved? One medical study is from: Unusually low mortality of penetrating wounds of the chest. Twelve years' experience. J Thorac Cardiovasc Surg. 1989 Jan;97(1):119-25. If I remember correctly, this paper states that under 10% of people presenting to the ER with knife wounds *to the heart* die, and only around 1-2% of knife wounds to the overall die. There's no way to know what percentage of victims died before reaching the ER, but at least it's data (and rather old data at that; emergency care has gotten better in the last 10 years). Jay ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 07:39:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #163 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.