From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #171 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Thurs, 22 April 1999 Vol 06 : Num 171 In this issue: re: eskrima: Targets ? eskrima: reality break eskrima: Chokeouts eskrima: Serious Stuff.. eskrima: Kronk eskrima: Re: Brandt Bollers eskrima: Filipino music eskrima: Re: [Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #170] eskrima: Belting the Fries in Belfast eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1050+ members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Patrick Davies Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:40:58 +0100 Subject: re: eskrima: Targets ? Having worked as a doorman for over ten years there were targets that I identified relating to the degree of the situation. Remember we are discussing stop hit here. Follow ups are not the main issue. Firstly, I encouraged the people who worked for me never to hit the face as this led to marking that would generally lead to police participation. If there is something tangible then you would be arrested. If they cant see the marking then there is going to be a lot of time used up investigating and if they are busy they will want to avoid that. Severe cases saw direct nape of the neck attack, hitting the soft part just below the adams apple that is rather openly exposed. This was never a one hit situation and just an opener. A double finger presence not only causes a blockage to their air supply but tends to push them backwards and off balance. Utilising this attack people should be aware of the worst case consequences. The attacker would never be released from a hold until the police arrived. Attacking this spot from the front with a direct force is functional but if you can enter the area with a 45 degree angle they will drop quite easily. Lower severity cases saw the hand(I once got a neat pointed elbow in) go to the sternum and from here their energy dictated the next resulting movement. In that job it was usually holding techniques. The attacker would never be released from a hold until the police arrived if called. The decision to call the police is sometimes given to the assailant while they are held helpless. They usually left without much ado and at the most maybe a bit of long range bravado. An approaching target usually met the front push kick. This would come up under their tunnel vision and catch them square on the chest. At least stopping them dead in their tracks or else they go backwards (all things being equal). The demands of the situation If you approached a situation from the side then the elbow usually was initially trapped while you take a decent control of their body, taking them to the ground or against a wall depending on the circumstances These were relevant to closed areas like a doorway to a nightclub. Outside on the street you might have more room to manoeuvre and I have had a light student drop a 210lb guy with a side kick to the side of the knee. His mate backed off and the pain and shock on the assailant was enough to allow my student to escape. If you are not answerable to the law through the type of situation faced as above then the saying "where the head goes the body follows" is worth remembering. Stop hits are usually a snap decision. That's why you should feel comfortable with the type of instinct needed. From that point on you decides what you do then and depends on the type of training you do. Wing Chun guys would straight blast etc etc. Pat Aberdeen Martial Arts Group - -----Original Message----- From: "Jon Howard" > What would all the ED'ers out there target as means to stop somebody - INSTANTLY! Err if the above sounds a little disjointed, I'll rephrase it... What targets (not this applies to empty hands or sticks ONLY - no knives or guns!) would the people on this list generally target in a pre / post emptive strike to stop an attacker as fast as possible - I generally don't belive in the karate myths of one punch kill's / knockouts (no thats not a challenge *grin*). ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:41:43 EDT Subject: eskrima: reality break In a message dated 99-04-21 20:07:51 EDT, you write: << How does seeing someone die or get extremely injured influence one's martial arts? I know this may be a little out of context, the huge difference of seeing someone get shot vs. seeing someone in say a knife fight or street fight. But the question remains. Does it change the way you train? >> From Animal, Yeah it does. More importantly it changes your perspective on what you are doing from a game to a potentially grim reality. All of a sudden it is no longer nearly as much fun. On the other hand, it opens new depths on the subject that you never knew existed. To tell you truth, I consider it a very maturing experience. A person who has been through the mill is less likely to jump into conflict without serious cause. ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:58:16 EDT Subject: eskrima: Chokeouts In a message dated 99-04-22 10:35:45 EDT, you write: << He quotes another study of 14 fatalities due to choke holds applied by LEOs in process of restraining suspects... >> From Animal There are three interesting contributing factors on this. 1) often during the struggle a suspect will twist from his throat in the crook of the arm to the forearm across the tracheia. This can cause swelling of the throat and cutting off air instead of a temporary break in the blood flow. In addition, while fighting an injury can occur to the individuals neck (I asked a chiropractor, apparently it is easier to hyperextend your neck forward, than it is backwards). 2) The next step is the department's proceedure after a choke out. In the old days, a suspect would be choked out and not given medical attention. This is what happened in the Los Angeles PD case of Ron Sutters, they put him into the drunk tank and he passed out. It was then the swelling closed his tracheia and he suffocated. Many departments who still allow chokeholds now insist the suspect be taken to the hospital immediately afterwards. 3) SDS (Sudden Death Syndrome) this problem is little known publicly. However it is well known among mental health workers. In effect an individual who is in the middle of a manic state will just "burn out." That is to say the adrenaline dump is so great that the person's body just gives out. Interestingly enough, a person in the middle of a manic state will fight being restrained. The more you restrain, the more they fight. Needless to say an embolism isn't going to be helped by a choke out. I would be interested in seeing the autopsies of the 14 deaths to see what the exact cause of death is. ------------------------------ From: "Brian A. Meyer" Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:10:59 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Serious Stuff.. Bradley Wrote: <"I don't like to bring up bad things, but due to yesterday's gruesome events I have been pondering a couple of questions. First let me explain that I live here in Littleton, CO. In fact, Columbine High School is less than four miles to the west of me. One of my students (a 16 year old boy) goes there. Luckily, he is ok and did not have to see the things that none of those kids should ever have had to see. But this got me thinking. I have been involved in the martial arts for almost 27 years now and thankfully, have never seen anyone get killed. I have seen plenty of people get messed up from street fights or even in competition, but never death. This leads me to my first question. How does seeing someone die or get extremely injured influence one's martial arts? I know this may be a little out of context, the huge difference of seeing someone get shot vs. seeing someone in say a knife fight or street fight. But the question remains. Does it change the way you train? Does it make you change your attitude towards the arts in general? Sorry to be so serious, but this has got me thinking about things. There are many very experienced people on the list whose opinions I respect. Life is such a precious thing, and I am saddened by this recent event. Peace, Bradley"> Brad & everyone else on this list.... How disturbing these events have been. Kids...teens...with such hate, and uncontroled "rage" that they attack others as a means of "payback" for what they percieve as injustices imposed on them. If anything these events need to stiffen our resolve as serious practictioners of the martial arts. The phrase "I train in violence to become non-violent" is something I believe in. But the media has not painted the martial arts in this manner. The media has portrayed the martial arts as violent, and thats it. I beleive that as instructors, and advanced students of martial arts, we need to make a more serious committment to ourselves, and especially to our young students, to help them learn to deal with their pain and anger at the world. We have a powerful tool here in the martial arts. It could help them so much. I believe that we need to step up and take a proactive role in the nation, and world dealing with this epidemic. Why don't we as martial artists start to try and reach out to these young people and show them a better world. It sounds like a crazy idea, or even stupid doesn't it? But I challenge you, what if you change the life of one young person, a person on the same road as the other misguided children, how many peoples lives have you changed? How many lives might you have saved? What if every martial artist made the effort to reach out to the "problemed" students in our schools. Yes they may get regected, but the effort will be noticed, because these kids have never been treated with respect before. I personally am working with at least one "at risk" student right now. I hope to be able to give him a better way to live. A focus in his life, where he has no stability anywhere else. What if I give him that one place where he knows he is respected, and that the rules don't change. What if we all did that? Maybe some of you are, I congratulate you. Best wishes and good luck you are ahead of your time. How long will it be before the uneducated people start to attack us as martial artists for being violent, and possibly feeding violence to theie children. I challenge you all to take a more positive role in these childrens lives. Lets step up to the plate people....this could be a turning point for our young. If we take a stand now as a nation of martial artists, committed to helping our children cope, what positive results might occur. As martial artists we have a reponsibility, i feel, to represent the "ethics" that we preach. Lets share these with the children, the "at risk children" and give them a better way. What have we really got to lose. Are we scared of what they might do with this knowledge? We always run that risk with any student. I hope that this scares you a bit, but that you honestly take to heart the idea presented here and make the seed grow...we have an opportunity, a challenge, to make things better for our children. How many of you will pick up this gauntlet? Will you not do it out of fear? Do we as martial artists not strive to break our limitations, to eliminate our fear, and to overcome any obstical that is presented. We have a great challenge ahead of us, we can either sit back and do nothing, hopeing it just goes away (which it won't), we can hope the government will come up with a solution (LAUGH!), or we can take action.......after all what is at stake here......OUR KIDS!!!!!!!! Brian A. Meyer business@mwt.net ------------------------------ From: Rocky Pasiwk Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:53:15 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Kronk Don't forget Sweet Pea, Micky Goodwyn and Milt McCory,( former light weight champ I believe ) I attempted to spar him a few times, I showwed him my famous face block. As far as being tough at the Kronk, it was my experience that I was tough when I walked in, but they always seemed to tenderize me before I left. I had a few guys that liked to try to beat me until I was the right color. But most of the time if you go there with a little heart the guys will show a few things. Like lefts, rights and uppercuts!! To prove once again that real life is different from the gym, Milt McCory end up with some problems and his career was short lived, he showed up with his entourage at a club my friend managed and started shit, I was in front of him, and closed the gap before he could set himself, before he knew what was happening he was being choked, then the rest of the bouncers escorted his buddies out. afterwards 2 or 3 of the bouncers were coming up and saying " Man do you know who that was" I said your damn straight I do, Why do you think I didn't give him a chance to set himself. Like my dad always said "Intelligent training breeds an Intelligent fighter" if you know your opponents strengths, take them away!! Rocky ------------------------------ From: "Todd D. Ellner" Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:53:08 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: Brandt Bollers Tom Furman writes: >Has anyone collected or organized progressions on Guru Bollers material??? Not so far. Every once in a while he thinks of writing "The Big Book of Brandt Bollers", but it hasn't happened yet. Todd ------------------------------ From: "Bryan Justus" Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:02:37 PDT Subject: eskrima: Filipino music Does anyone on this list know of any Filipino music that they would recommend. ( no vocals ) something good to workout to. Bryan Justus CDM/Pangamut Cuentada - Anciongs Balintawak _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: paul martin Date: 22 Apr 99 12:33:31 PDT Subject: eskrima: Re: [Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #170] Ray wrote: This comment has gotten under my skin for some time now. I am just as gu= ilty of using this phrase as anyone else, so I AM NOT TAKING SHOTS AT RAY TERR= Y. = Martial arts of every kind do NOTHING by themselves. It is a simple phra= se like Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Same goes for MA (FMA,TKD,...) I was laughing at another quote that went something like: = Attitude without technique will beat technique without attitude. Amen. = Whether it is a gang of wannabe's in Colorado or a person justifiably defending himself; you are responsible for your actions. It really bugs = me when new people ask questions like which style is better or which school = is better ( not that I don't raise that question from my limited view of mar= tial arts). I have seen terrible techniques being taught at, what I considere= d not so great schools that they could make work because of will and attitude. = Good. And I have seen practical, beautifully efficient and effective techniques fail miserably in very good schools because they did them with= no hunger for survival. It is all about the individuals that are keeping th= e art alive through training and clear purpose. If there is a point to this whining, it would be that - after this Columb= ine School incident - the question of teacher responsibility raised. We are = also teachers who are responsible for how we manage our classrooms and our curriculums. As a teacher of MA I am responsible for being as clear in m= y communication as possible so that I know that I have acted responsibly. = Therefore, by example each student knows that THEY are responsible for th= eir own actions too. I hated hearing people knocking individual teachers for= the actions of these kids. More accurately, the entire system should be put u= nder the microscope to see where the weaknesses were to ensure better communic= ation up and down the school chain of command. I guess this could apply to eac= h of us and how we evaluate our classes too. Paul ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:53:36 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Belting the Fries in Belfast Good afternoon, all.... Sorry about the title, it was just too much fun to make a groaner out of it.... And, Guro Crafty is incredibly right.... I'm sitting in a job that is soon to be closed (as is the office), so there is nothing for me to do for 8 hours a day except dream of writing music, or dream of combat. That dichotomy in and of itself is pretty off-kilter... :) But, it does give me a lot of time to ponder these type of approaches to combat.... so it can't be all bad! Now, back to the serious stuff..... - ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:32:25 -0700 Subject: eskrima: batting the bats in the belfry A Howl etc: Mike wrote: " I've been thinking about the strategy of conflict, most noticeably in the field of one-on-one stickfighting; I also happen to be in the middle of some Jung psyche texts. Do any of you use psychological archetypes to "get a handle" on your opponent's strategy? Just thought I'd throw out this dog bone (tip o' the hat to Guro Crafty!) for perusal. Let me know what you think..." I've quoted this one almost in its entirety even though no doubt most may think Mike may have some bats in his belfry because its a pet subject of mine. Of course there won't be a lot of time for psychoanalysis in the event of a surprise in the street ;-) and of course the dynamics of a sparring session are different than someone really coming after you, but I think Mike is right to be on the lookout to recognize types. I'm a big, big fan of Jung but I confess it never occurred to me to use his archetypes for stickfighting! In the DBMA syllabus, the material about fighter types is covered as part of the first range-- snake range. There are tactics for probing what the opponent's tendencies are. Usually the analysis is more technical-- what we call the "theory of chambers" i.e. from where does he throw? but Mike's question keys on the latent psychological implications. The first type in DBMA analysis, and one likely to be found in street situations too, is what we call "the swatter". He is coming to smash you and anything you put in the way. In most cases, his core strike is "the caveman", although sometimes you will run into repeated redondos or downward eights. This is pretty similar to Mike's use of "the hero" archetype in several respects-- one of them being that this type tends to be what he calls naive and I call stupid. I'm not saying stupid can't be real dangerous because it can, and certainly the more I assume he's stupid, the likelier I am to get fooled, but again as Mike notes, the trickster (sticking with the canine motif, we can call this what the American Indians do, "the coyote") is a good match. Perhaps Animal and others have some thoughts on the street application of this concept? Woof, Crafty _______________________ Thanks for the response, Guro Crafty... I definitely agree with you that there are alternate ways of expressing similar concepts (kind of a synchronicity, don'cha think??). What Guro Crafty says is exactly what I'm getting at (albeit with a somewhat roundabout method).... at my current stage of training, I am trying to get mental "reference points" on my opponent. I don't want to "predict" his movements, but simultaneously, I don't want to be purely reactive (in the sense that there is no "flow" to my movements). To me, the bridge is training my mind to strategically orient on my opponent, using structures that I am already familiar with. For example, I am a dual Music/Physics graduate, so the concepts of broken rhythm and timing were internalized by me using musical terms and analogies. Similarly, the yin/yang concept which my Okinawan style professed was embraced in terms of mechanical Physics (action/reaction, spring tension and release, etc..). Is that the only way to internalize these concepts? No, but they are more intrinsic to my nature, so they are more easily assimilated by myself. It's all the same concept, just different terminologies/analogies to adapt it to yourself. (DISCLAIMER: IMHO, any reference that you use to better understand/internalize a concept is completely valid and correct! As long as you are bettering yourself, it's all good!). The reason that I got caught up in the Jungian analysis of "battle mentality" structures, is that it seems to me that in the heat of combat, the more polished, refined aspect of yourself is submerged beneath a more functional, primal "Survive at all costs" individual. Now, I believe that the survival mechanism triggers many aspects of your true self, because your body and subconscious realize that it must be completely comfortable and in sync with itself (Physical, hormonal, emotional, etc.) in order to maximize its chances for survival. Now, because it is your true self that is manifesting, according to Jung, much of your archetypes should appear, and actually create a certain "combat pattern" that you would behave in. Is it correct? I have no idea.. :) It's a theory that I like, and am currently testing to see if it works for me. If not, I'll find something that's more accurate to my assimilation. But, so far, I'm seeing some interesting manifestations of Jung's archetypes in sparring (I haven't seen a "Mother" complex yet, tho'!!!). I think that the archetypes will not be as profound in sparring, as the intensity level is much less than full-fledged self-defense, but it is a start.... As always, comments are appreciated (perhaps some ideas on how you strategically break down the psychology of your opponent??).... All the best, Mike Worth "Music is the Space Between the Notes..." - Claude Debussy ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #171 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.