From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #175 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sun, 25 April 1999 Vol 06 : Num 175 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #172 eskrima: TKD as a street fighting art Re: eskrima: TKD as a street fighting art eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #174 eskrima: Ref says, "Break"... eskrima: more on why [insert-style-name-here] is bad eskrima: Clubs in the UK eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1050+ members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 12:34:33 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #172 << OTOH, if you're sincere about saying art X is phony and useless, just come out and say it. Be prepared to back it up with some sound reasoning or verifiable evidence, however. >> I think the real issue is the watered down way some of the arts are taught. People being taught their sport martial arts are applicable in a real self defense situation. As a teenager, I went from a "traditional" TKD school to one of the local University's sport oriented clubs. Things like one and three step sparing, combination hand and foot techniques and wrist manipulations where not taught at the University. People advanced because of their ability to sport spar. I know of one fellow who went from yellow to red belt b/c he could spar. I know of others who reached Black Belt with horrid form and technique. Don;t get me wrong, there were some folks there with superior ability and technique but most of those where from other schools. Most (not all) of the people that joined after me seemed to advance with very little ability. (I advanced as well, so no I'm not bitter.) One interesting note on all this is that, as someone from the outside, I did find that I seemed to get a great deal of respect from the established black belts from the "old school". Another interesting note, anyone interested in real self defense soon knew to join the Hapkido club. Regards. Jim Lowe Berkeley Eskrima Club PS. For those that know me. This was 1984. I was 50lbs lighter and was much better than I am now. LOL. ------------------------------ From: Michael Koblic Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:02:25 -0700 Subject: eskrima: TKD as a street fighting art After much deliberation I feel I have to weigh in on Jeffrey Monaghan's side. This may be a rehash of the obvious but here goes: I learned TKD in 4 separate dojangs over a period of 6 years (I moved around a lot in those days). In three of those it was an accepted practise to go full contact between neck and hips, but for *kicking only*. Every time the range was closed and any serious use of the hands was contemplated the fight was stopped. I used to come home black and blue but seldom with a serious injury. I did see a jaw broken by a kick, however, that was more of a rarity. And yes, you can die after a kick to the chest, I have seen a man requiring a heart transplant after a rugby tackle, but one is looking for what works *majority* of the time, i.e. in a street fight I want to play the percentages. I watch olympic-standard fighters. Their kicking techinques are awsome. Their hands flop around their bodies - oh, for a good jab-cross combo! Both my kids have done TKD. The same floppy hands were obvious. My son was enraged when we sparred lightly and I reminded him of his guard deficiency by a few judicious hand taps: this was not cricket! (or TKD!) If we agree that: a) in a street fight, kicks above the waist are inadvisable, b) most of the damage is done up close (with head, knees and elbows and on the ground), c) one fights as one trains, I must reluctantly say that TKD is not a preferred *system* for street encounters. Having said that, there is no doubt that TKD training brings out tremendous attributes including power, focus, flexibility, footwork, stamina, etc. etc. I also have no doubt that there are hundreds of TKD exponents who will kick butt in a street fight. Unfortunately, there are also hundreds of others who have never been inside the dojo who can do the same thing having learned "on the job". A (possibly useful) analogy: If you let me drive a Ferrari against Michael Schumacher in a Yugo, I am likely to lose. I. e. we all agree that it is the man not the tools. Mike Koblic, Quesnel BC ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 19:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: eskrima: TKD as a street fighting art > I watch olympic-standard fighters. Their kicking techinques are awsome. > Their hands flop around their bodies - oh, for a good jab-cross combo! And those olympic boxers are usually wide open for a leg kick. :) We should not assume because some of us are interested in a street effective art that those in some corner TKD school are interested in the same. I was in WTF TKD for 20+ years before I even thought of training for street survival. That is fairly common. For better or worse, most people don't worry about interpersonal encounters on the street and they don't care to train for them. Those in non-sport oriented TKD will practice low kicks, sweeps, face punches, eye gouges, throat strikes, knee & elbow strikes, etc. Al things that work very well on the street. Do they teach the X-block? Yes. As was once pointed out here in this forum, look at the news coverage video of Mrs. Marcos being attacked by the farmer with a bolo years ago. She uses several high X-blocks to counter the attack and they probably saved her life. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Jesse Manibusan Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 04:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #174 > From: "Jeffrey Monaghan" > Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 04:32:10 -0700 > Subject: eskrima: FW: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #173 > The > silver medallist > was probably still in shape because it was only a year > after the Olympics. > He got knocked out by a guy I know in a bar shortly after > I saw him. Tried > to jump up and do one of those fancy kicks got knocked > out by a very mean > bar fighter after he got tough with the guy. This silver medallist kinda sounds like he has an attitude. This being an incident in a bar, perhaps the TKD guy was a bit intoxicated? We have a lot of very experienced martial artists on this list and judging from the way some of the readers respond on "street" issues, most would have walked away. I am not really agreeing or disagreeing with you. I think there may be another issue here which is: maybe his technique may wuck, but for sure his judgement sucks. > My Hawaiian Kempo school did challenge his TKD school and > him to a friendly > tournament. Rules were 6 ounce open handed gloves, no > head gear or other > protection except mouth piece and groin cup. Cover the > toes with shoes or > something to prevent a toe in the eye. One ten minute > round or until > knock-out/Tap out with no weight classes or belts. Leg > kicks and grappling > allowed. No knees or elbows unless agreed upon by the > fighters. Interesting rules. Sounds very free-form and non-restrictive. Its too bad this tournament didn't go through. It would have been interesting to see the outcome. > I'm not saying TKD is a bad > system. I'm saying > I have yet to see people fight like they teach it. Until > I do my opinion > stands. I can respect that. > I don't underestimate an opponent because of > their style but I > don't tremble in fear because of it either. I was trying > to make the point > that I was looking for a street fighting oriented system > not belittle TKD. I think there are more issues in this posting that we agree on than disagree on. > I'm also reminded of the first Dog Bros gathering I > observed. One of the > more experienced fighters was effectively stopped with > one kick, a simple > front kick to the solar plexus. it always seems like its the "back-to-basics" approach that brings us down to earth. an aside: is there any truth to the story that TKD favored and developed high kicks because centuries ago, TKD practitioners intended to use the kicks to kick horsemen off their horses? Also: I got this excerpt from www.mikemiles.com, a Canadian Muay Chaiya preactitioner and relates to how old MT masters felt the art has changed because of the emphasis on fighting with gloves instead of the traditional way with stiffened cotton: "The disadvantage of fighting using gloves is they allow the boxers to fight continuously which damages the art. When wearing bandages, you can not always continually punch because it is painful. A fighter can get hurt so he has to learn how to defend himself as well. " This seems interesting to me that because it doesn't *hurt* as much to punch with a gloved hand, MT fighters of today tend to punch (and kick) like madmen. Whereas before, the art didn't used to be a contest of attrition since the strategy was not to beat your opponent to a pulp but rather, to outfox him maybe. How different the *old* MT probably looked.... _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Engpa Neps Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 22:37:15 +0800 (PHT) Subject: eskrima: Ref says, "Break"... Jeffrey wrote: >Again all those people who are good in TKD are probably good just because >they are natural athletics. I'm not saying TKD is a bad system. I'm saying >I have yet to see people fight like they teach it. Until I do my opinion >stands. I don't underestimate an opponent because of their style but I >don't tremble in fear because of it either. I was trying to make the point >that I was looking for a street fighting oriented system not belittle TKD. >Last post on this subject. To which Engpa replies: First off, relax. Nobody ruffled my feathers and I'm not here to ruffle anyone else's either. Here's my experience with the TKD stylists I've met. They were all pretty full of it...bravado, I mean. Never did like 'em! They'd tell me about the effectiveness of their kicks and I'd go...uh, sure, if you say so. Then, Id tell myself that up close, their fancy kicks aren't worth squat. We'd spar and I'd get them on the inside (I was a CMAist at the time). Didn't flatten 'em all, but I didn't lose either. Get my meaning? The girls loved them. They impressed just about everyone with those high kicks of theirs. Made me jealous! Almost hateful even! That was enough to make me knock the system altogether. Then I met this one TKD guy. No, he didn't impress the socks off of me. We sparred and I beat him, I suppose. I got him up close, just as I thought I would. But then, he was such a nice guy, you know. He didn't make any of the claims the other guys did, just a few suggestions on how I could improve my kicks. And, without realizing it, I found myself listening intently -- the reason being partly that he DID catch me with his his spin kick a couple of times but also because I discovered that not ALL TKDists were a******s! Now that the long of it is out of the way, I think I see where you're coming from, Jeff. Although I wasn't quite as vocal about it, I knocked the system too. The bravado of those TKDists got to me, I guess. The blame's all mine for letting them do that. But, that one humble TKD individual and my recent involvement with the FMA (I dismissed the FMA, too. And, I'm Filipino. Imagine that!), plus all the great stuff I've seen as of late -- in systems I previously dismissed -- made me take a second, closer look at the various MA. I still see things I dislike in the many systems. Sure, I do! I'm as opinionated as everyone else on the list. But, I feel it's in my best interest to consider the strengths, not just the weaknesses, of the different MA this time. Now I say to myself, all things considered, every Tom, Dick, and Harry I meet is potentially dangerous...regardless of his style. And, there are probably just as many BJJ, MT, FMA, CMA, JMA, or whatever-else-MA a******s and b*****s out there as there are in TKD. Jeffrey, I'm not a TKDist. Never was. And, I didn't take offense in anything you said. Actually, all this post is about is me bouncing some thoughts off of everyone. If your opinion stands, that's cool with me. Walang kaso (No problem). To everybody: Let's bury the hatchet already and have some peace and quiet for a change. This one got a little out-of-hand IMHO, but that's IMHO. And, I'm not pointing any fingers either. As far as I'm concerned, everyone was just doing what they thought was right. If you still want to go at it, okay. Just let me shut my eyes again first. Please lang, mga 'tol. Magkakasama tayo rito. ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 09:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: more on why [insert-style-name-here] is bad > an aside: is there any truth to the story that TKD favored > and developed high kicks because centuries ago, TKD > practitioners intended to use the kicks to kick horsemen > off their horses? That is the story of why they developed the flying jumping kicks. The horses in that part of Asia were smaller than those of Europe, thus that -might- be the case. ?? In a way it seems rather like practicing knife disarms. A silly thing to attempt in a real situation, but should the opportunity arise... You just never know when you'll be attacked by someone on horseback. :) IMHO the head kicks became popular through the influence of Taek Kyon. Taek Kyon was an old Korean martial game in which you won by making your opponent touch the ground with something other than their feet (ie. a sweep, a kick, etc) -or- kick them in the topnot (top of the head). In their 40 year effort to get TKD into the Olympics they looked for ways to make 'Korean Karate' more Korean and less Japanese (as most in the areas that suffered under Japanese rule in the half of this century, the Koreans are not fond of the Japanese). Now we see and attempt to get Eskrima into the Olympics. Need I say more... What I like to consider is the mix of arts/styles one might study to become an effective street fight survivor. e.g. TKD doesn't go to the ground well. Judo doesn't handle the kicking range well. etc... This is my list. Eskrima (stick oriented and blade oriented), TKD (long range kicks) Hapkido or Aiki-Jujutsu (standup grappling), Boxing (hands), muay Thai (shorter range kicks, elbows, knees), Sombo/BJJ/submission (ground fighting), pressure points, tactical firearms training. Others? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: James Farthing Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 21:00:53 +0100 Subject: eskrima: Clubs in the UK I'm looking to find a list of clubs in the UK. I live in Hertfordshire (near to Essex and Middlesex also) and am trying to find an FMA club near by. Can anyone offer any links?? (private email if you wish: jamesf@cqms.demon.co.uk) Thanks, - -- James Farthing jamesf@cqms.demon.co.uk JFarthing@colt-telecom.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 14:24:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #175 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.