From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #182 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Fri, 30 April 1999 Vol 06 : Num 182 In this issue: eskrima: Knives and Boxing eskrima: [Fwd: happy hands of harm] eskrima: Re: Hand Conditioning eskrima: ja right eskrima: re:Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #180 eskrima: conditioning eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #181 Re: eskrima: ja right BOUNCE eskrima: Admin request (fwd) eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1050+ members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:12:28 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Knives and Boxing From: Tuhon Bill McGrath I just got back from seminars in Europe and went through my email to find a question on the relation between western boxing and FMA. In Pekiti-Tirsia the double knife techniques in which both fighters hold their knives in icepick grip are the most "boxing like" in that you have to "slip" past your opponent's weapon arm and often involve a punch to set up a stab........I am wondering if any one else on ED have seen a similar parallel between knife and boxing in their systems or do they teach boxing as a separate art? I will give some details from Pekiti when I return from my next seminar. Speaking of which... Tuhon McGrath, Yes, our school experimented with blending boxing and knife work together. At our school, we teach boxing and used to teach a knife class. In part of our old Edged and Pointed Weapons Class, we modified basic boxing blocks to be used with double knife (or single knife) techniques holding them in the reverse grip. Here, it was assumed that you had a knife or knives and was defending yourself against a skilled and superior boxer who was much bigger than you and determined to seriously harm you. Since we knew of no knife verses boxing art, we experimented with fma and boxing defensive movements and things worked pretty well. Usually, the boxer punched into the edge or point of our knives when we used basic boxing blocks. Just experiement a little and see what happens. One of the reasons we experimented with knives vs boxing is that most of the students involved were all over 40 with various physical limitations. We can no longer go toe to toe boxing with a much bigger and stronger opponent. Which brings about this question. If you are middle aged and with physical limitations, what effective/practical martial arts are available to you for self defense? Face it, some of us cannot be bounced around playing judo etc... anymore. We cannot take roundhouse punches to the head like we used to. I used to box but now I have degenerative disks in my neck (due to early aging process). This ended alot of heavy contact training for me which I enjoyed. Forced to quit boxing and getting older, I had to look for a MA that was street effective and did not require huge amounts of physical strength and endurance. So I took up FMA with emphasis on knife offense/defense. Best thing I ever did besides learning to shoot. Any suggestions for those with limitations seeking a practical self defense art? Butch ------------------------------ From: Rocky Pasiwk Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 21:57:40 -0700 Subject: eskrima: [Fwd: happy hands of harm] Rock, I'm still having bounce-back problems so would you forward this to the Digest for me please? Woof, Crafty PS: Nice post the other day. A Howl etc: Creighton wrote: "I do the typical JKDC/FMA curriculum and had a question about conditioning my empty hand striking surfaces. I recently began striking my canvas heavy bag without bag gloves in the hopes that it will condition my knuckles and upper fingers and also doing thai kicks without any shin protection/padding. After about two days my knuckles and shins were too sore to do any dedicated striking on the bag, even with protection/padding. My reasoning behind such training was that we don't use protective equipment in real altercations and I wanted to train solo realistically. Should I pad up for power striking and do surface conditioning separately (makiwara for the knuckles and bottle rolling for the shins) ? Or is this something that just comes with time. Do any of you have any tips/tricks for facilitating my development, such as training progressions that have worked or particular liniments that speed healing (dit da jow)? My concern is for longevity. I am not a professional fighter who will fight over a limited amount of years, I do want to be a warrior who can defend myself and those I care about decisively for the rest of my life. I know that injury is sometimes inescapable in our particular blend of martial arts but I am hoping that some of our more "seasoned" warriors can provide tips to maximize conditioning while minimizing downtime due to training caused wear and tear." END QUOTE Nice practical question. My two cents: Canvas is a real abrasive material to start out with for this kind of training. There are other materials that heavy bags are also made out of that will bloody the knuckles less. Peyton Quinn (author "A Bouncer's Guide to Barroom Brawling") wears gardening gloves so that the hand knows what it is to hit unprotected (i.e. no wraps, no padding) yet the skin remains unscuffed. As for the shins-- don't be such a kitty! ;-) Its good that you've started, although from your description a bit too much too soon, so just start slow and relaxed and steadily build-- the slow and relaxed thing can help you develop a good technical power basis too. But perhaps more importantly your experience can be seen as an intro to the wisdom of the FMA in empty hand hitting. Especially for someone with your goals, technique that is based upon testing the relative strength of one's unpadded knuckles and metacarpal bones against skulls of those often larger and heavier boned can be a dubious proposition-- not too mention the bodily fluid risks of cutting your knuckles during a fight. Hammerfists and slaps begin to look more appealing although they cannot be tested as fists can in martial sports-- so the functionalizing question remains. Many FMA systems have deep knowledge about slapping and hammerfists and it is with such tools that you will really see the application of the weapons to empty hand. BTW, in this regard, GM Kalimbo, with whom I trained one day by virtue of into by GT Gaje, is someone with this knowledge and I see that he is listed as being one of the teachers at a training camp that GT Gaje is organizing. Woof, Crafty Dog ------------------------------ From: "J H" Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:54:04 PDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Hand Conditioning Here's a drill for hand conditioning- You'll need 3-4 items for this drill. 1) Old pair of denim pants. 1) Spool of heavy duty thread, or a couple boot laces. 1) 1 lb.- 1 1/2 lb. bag of raw/uncooked beans. 1) Bottle of Dit Da Jow- Can be purchased at your local Asian market, most Gung Fu institutes, or MA store. Hmmm.... I bet some of the pros on this list know where to get some real good stuff, eh. That might be the best place to start. Okay, cut off one pant leg at about mid-shin to knee height, sew one end up with heavy duty thread, fill with enough beans to make the bag about 2-3" thick( you might need more beans), and sew the other end up. Make sure you sew both ends up real tight, so that no beans fall out. Now, you should have an industrial strength beanie bag! Okay, here it goes: Before you start, liberally douse your hands with Jow. For the first 2 weeks perform 50 strikes a day, at the most. Try 10 hammer fist strikes, 10 back knuckle, 10 eagle claw/fingertip strikes, 10 straight punches, 10 palm strikes. Use about 30% force. Just let your hand fall into the bag. After your session is completed soak your hands in hot water for about 10 minutes, then massage some Dit Da Jow into your hands and wrists for 5-10 minutes. Don't forget to stretch! If your start to feel pain in your hands take a rest for a day or two. Throw in 10 more repetitions every 2 weeks until your at 100 strikes a day. Perform 100 a day for 6 more weeks, then slowly start mixing it up by throwing in a few different types of strikes... Then, go to the store by some more beans and a five gallon bucket, put the beans in the bucket, and start the whole process over( 50 punches a day for 1st 2 weeks then slowly build to 100 over a 10 week period). Hmmm..., with the eagle claw strike, try quickly grabbing and releasing the beans with each thrust. Remember,"Nice and easy does it every time."( Frank Sinatra) This program should make your forearms, hands, and wrists pretty tough. If not, sue me! Ahh, just kidding! Take it easy, Fry Bread Boy _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: tenrec Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:44:03 -0400 Subject: eskrima: ja right > in regards to having a national organization for the philippine martial > arts... i've heard something about "jojo > estrada" being interested in forming such an organization in > order to unite ALL the various factions/organizations of the philippine > martial arts together and to help propagate it thru out the world, i mean > sounds good, especially if it IS backed by the philippine govt.... diba??? I believe this was tried during martial law...NARAPHIL was in fact headed by Gen. Ver...don't know what the eventual outcome was though... Now there is Arnis Phil., under Velayo...not sure what's happening under this org... IMHO: let's remember what happened in Korea during the Great Unification (under the TKD banner)... tenrec tenrec@avcorner.com ------------------------------ From: Patrick Davies Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 09:47:18 +0100 Subject: eskrima: re:Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #180 From: Jesse Manibusan > <<> I try > not to fight someone in their strong range. For example > I box wrestlers, > wrestle kickers, etc. As we all know it is the superior > fighter that > controls the range and where the fight is fought, this is > what I aspire for. Jesse then said: Good strategy. Its very likely that on the street, one will meet people stronger, faster, smarter, etc. than himself. But its NOT likely that your street nemesis will be your absolute superior in everythings and you may be able to pull some tricks out of your own magic hat: he may be faster, but you have a better reach, he may be stronger but you can outrun him, etc. So one needs to take the fight to the opponent and fight on your terms.>> I know this saying. My teachers have all used it and its right. But in all the street fights I have been inat no point did I have the opportunity to think...now what are their strengths...are they a boxer...etc. Too busy mixing it but it is something that should become instinctive and your training should incorporate that. There were times I fought someone at their strengths and at times they fought me at their strengths. I would always go and think about it though...usually whilst sore; ). '<> hey that's like the " but could I bite you here?" question that forgets that your teeth were knocked out earlier in the entry and the wind taken out of you when the body hits the concrete. It good to look at weaknesses but nobody comes upto you in the street, gets on their back and says lets fight. What happens before you get into that grapple situation is the telling factor and it can bloody hurt. Pat Aberdeen Martial Arts Group ------------------------------ From: Patrick Davies Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:52:16 +0100 Subject: eskrima: conditioning My old thai instructor used to hit his shins with a hammer but wouldn't advocate that. The best way for shins is to kick those leather pads a lot. Rub them down with your hands as well afterwards to rid your callouses so you can kick them the next day. A neat trick but not so good for the pads is to get yoyur training partner to slap the pads against the shin for two minutes. I did this while in the shield position to assist my balance at that point of contact. Instead of a bottle one of those padded nunchakus (cut the string) tapping the shin while atching tv helps before upping onto the rattan stick. Urban myth or not, hitting bare knuckle onto hard objects can leave you hands in an awful state when you are older. makiwara for the knuckles is the prime example. I do train on the hook n jab pads bare knuckle as well as with bag gloves. Overdoing it can leave callouses which stop you training for a week, so take it slowly. The main thing to remember is that what other people get away with WE DO NOT! That 90 year old guy who smoked 80 a day all his life and stil can run round the block isnt me. I will get lung cancer. If you get my drift From: "Dawn & Creight Hatico" > I do the typical JKDC/FMA curriculum and had a question about conditioning my empty hand striking surfaces. I recently began striking my canvas heavy bag without bag gloves in the hopes that it will condition my knuckles and upper fingers and also doing thai kicks without any shin protection/padding. After about two days my knuckles and shins were too sore to do any dedicated striking on the bag, even with protection/padding. My reasoning behind such training was that we don't use protective equipment in real altercations and I wanted to train solo realistically. Should I pad up for power striking and do surface conditioning separately (makiwara for the knuckles and bottle rolling for the shins) ? Or is this something that just comes with time. Do any of you have any tips/tricks for facilitating my development, such as training progressions that have worked or particular liniments that speed healing (dit da jow)? My concern is for longevity. I am not a professional fighter who will fight over a limited amount of years, I do want to be a warrior who can defend myself and those I care about decisively for the rest of my life. I know that injury is sometimes inescapable in our particular blend of martial arts but I am hoping that some of our more "seasoned" warriors can provide tips to maximize conditioning while minimizing downtime due to training caused wear and tear. Pat Aberdeen Martial Arts Group ------------------------------ From: "Dr. Jerome Barber" Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 10:44:19 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #181 wrote: > Subject: eskrima: Style vs the Individual (Attitude Is Everything) > > Hi Everyone, > > All of this talk about preference of "this system > for that" and "that system for this" makes for some fairly interesting > conversation. Training in different systems to be a well rounded fighter > is good. However, I feel that a point that should be made (and has been > made by others on the list) on this thread is that without the willingness > (intention) to apply the skills and know-how one gets from training, it is > basically useless. None of us (or most of us, anyway) go out in public > looking for any opportunity to rip somebody a new orafice just to apply or > skills, but we have all seen the "dime-store samurai" type. They train in > train with "this GM and that GM" (and may have even attained a fifth or > sixth dan in a particular system), and talk up a storm about the fact that > they do train. But when the poop hits the fan, they couldn't fight their > way out of a wet paper bag. Hmmm... I have met a couple of these 'dime-store types', but perhaps we should allow them their fantasies. There are people who enjoy being martial Artists and there are others who train for self defense. The former because they want to find disipline or become instructors so that they can become "leaders" and have students who bow in before them. The latter train because they have been through several serious physical confrontations and they know the value of the Martial arts for themselves. A siginifanct number of the 'dime-store' players are also among the first to rush forward with comments about the purity of their art and rank. But we should not be too hard on anyone... everyone has different needs. > Why is this one might ask? Something called > "A-T-I-T-U-D-E", also known as "intention" or "killer instict". Call it > what you wish. The spirit of the thing is the same. A while back Dave > Gould made a very interesting post, and in it he touched PG Sulite's > concept of "intention". > Each system is a means to a particular end, and not all systems are as > complete as others. Ultimately, it is not the man superior technique > the will prevail, it will the man will the superior attitude. I've met > and fought beside (as well as against) people who have never trained in > any MA a day in their life, but they fought as hard, if not harder than > any formally trained person I have ever met. Allow me to borrow a > cheesey Bad Boy T-shirt saying: "Image is Nothting, > Attitude is Everything". I can agree with both your points as stated above. The system is not as important as the person's willingness to learn. Cloistering one's self within a single system and denying the credibilty of others who do not share your own views/system is usually an indication of a lack of siginificant attitude. Dr. Jerome Barber ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: eskrima: ja right > IMHO: let's remember what happened in Korea during the Great Unification > (under the TKD banner)... You lost me here. The 'great unification' as in the war??? TKD wasn't even around yet in the early 1950s. ??? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BOUNCE eskrima: Admin request (fwd) Forwarded message: To: owner-eskrima Subject: BOUNCE eskrima: Admin request From: Patrick Davies To: "'eskrima list'" Subject: FW: Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 10:00:03 +0100 Mike, Thanks for the great reply to my mail. I agree with you in that I have many different ways of describing a technique as each student will turn onto one of them at least. Sinwalli drill that is best known as heaven six might get described as Right Fore hand left back hand right back hand back hand etc Or Chamber underneath, chamber on top, chamber behind, chamber underneath etc Or Follow through, follow through , retract If you get my drift Now I hope that one of those three descriptions will catch in as many fish as the net will allow. Sometimes not though ; ) Cheers and you are right about the observation pat - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Casto > Another thing that cross-training gives me is different perspectives on the same material. When I first heard Guro Dan's explanation of the double Pak Sao entry to trapping, it made sense, but I didn't *get* it until I heard Sifu Bustillo explain it. It was the exact same technique, but Bustillo's explanation clicked with me better than Guro Dan's. Now, when I'm trying to teach this, I try Sifu Richard's explanation first (because it's usually the first one to come to my mind), and if it doesn't work, then I try Guro Dan's explanation of the concept. If this still doesn't work, then I'll try to come up with another explanation. Really, the only difference between their explanations was in the key points that they stressed ... but that minute difference made a world of difference in my perception of the concept. Guro Dan made this point like this: "Shoot has hundreds of locks in their series and that's great. Me, personally, I only need one lock ... and hundreds of ways to get to it." I thought this was such an eloquent observation ... and very true. Pat Aberdeen Martial Arts Group * Phone: +44 (0) 1224 795314 * Mobile: 0410 401111 * Smtp: Patrick.Davies@Halliburton.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #182 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. 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