From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #202 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Thurs, 13 May 1999 Vol 06 : Num 202 In this issue: eskrima: De Cuerdas Tunnels eskrima: Re: Head shots eskrima: Re: MAI Magazine eskrima: Which end of the stick? eskrima: R-E-S-P-E-C-T eskrima: IMHO, The Tunnel Story is True eskrima: Tunnel of death eskrima: re: tunnel of death eskrima: Re: Higher Consciousness... eskrima: Re: TKD vs knife... eskrima: Skirmish eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1050 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Manalo Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:18:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: De Cuerdas Tunnels On the tunnels: Big Joe and John Frankl expressed their doubts about the tunnels, which is perfectly alright. Some people have faith that they do exist, some people know that the tunnels exist, and some people will not believe unless they have hard facts. From what I know and believe, there were two tunnels that were both very dim. One had poisonous insects and snakes, while the other had traps--pits with stakes at the bottom, pressure-sensitive switches that would trigger sticks or blades. Just like the Indiana Jones/Shaolin Temple stories. To get through, you had to have more than just your five senses. It has been said that Dizon could "feel" something attacking him. Dizon and the Illustrisimos made it through the tunnels, while others did not. It wasn't only movements that helped you survive, and that's why the term "De Cuerdas" refers to more than just "movements". (Don't ask me what it is, because what I've learned is that to understand what De Cuerdas is, you have to already be there.) To know the location of the tunnels, you have to be in that circle of warriors, which demands a certain level of skill. Not any person with a stick can just walk up and ask for directions, like a tourist. And, if they even sense that you're not skilled, they won't even pay attention to you, let alone address your inquiries. I believe they exist because our Master has nothing to gain by telling lies. I also believe because what I do is more than movements. For me, there's more at stake than just movements. The arts represent my culture and warrior heritage. Just seeing the arts as "movements" closes your mind and limits your capacity for learning. So, we can go rounds on this ad nauseam. I believe they exist, and you might not. So why the pissing match based on belief, when apparantly there is no hard evidence available at our level to support/contradict the existence of the tunnels? I mean, is there hard factual evidence to support the miracles that Jesus performed as written in the Bible? (Don't answer that. Just think about it.) Peace, Bob Manalo, Jr. Advanced Guro IESA _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Lonnie Pollard Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:46:22 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: Head shots >Many people can take a power shot to the head with little reaction to >it at the time. I've seen people get hit in the head -hard- with a monkey >wrench only to run away rubbing their head. I suspect they were hurting >later, but at the time they didn't even go down. > >Ray Terry >raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com > I just happened to open the latest issue of the E-D, and I'm really out of touch with the discussions, so please understand if I'm out of synch. I am reminded here of one fight that Gat Puno Abon had in the mountains (a true no rules fight) where he came across the path of someone who was determined to defeat him, and attacked him. Gat Puno Abon was easily able to hit the guy in the head and be out of reach no matter how the guy tried to attack him. After having hit the guy several times in the head, seeing that the guys face was a bloody pulp, and whereas other attackers get the subtle message that if they continue they'll get hurt, this guy continued the attack. Gat Puno Abon was concerned that he was going to have to turn to one of his more viscous head strikes, but he wanted to avoid it because of risk of likelyhood of severely dropping his IQ, all sorts of other medical problems, and even death. He didn't want to see it come to that, so he just went ahead and landed a knockout strike where he thought he could do it with minimal damage to the attacker, and that was the end of the confrontation. Actually, I remember descriptions of times that the Baet's were in various confrontations, and after putting the attacker in the hospital, the attacker recovered and came back to thank the family for not killing him. Once it was a case where someone had taken Gat Puno Abon's little brother hostage with a very large bladed weapon. It was already getting dark outside, and Gat Puno Abon got one of his sticks, managed to get the guy to come after him, and as he stepped back as the guy was swinging while coming at him, he backed into a wall and the guy's strike got through enough to cut his belt, so he let off one quick strike to the head and the guy plopped immediately to the ground. The doctors said that had the strike been delivered an inch or two away from where it had been delivered, the guy would surely have been dead. There is a certain unwillingness to kill unless absolutely necessary that seems to resurface again and again. The head is a funny target, partly because there are so many targets where no damage is done, and yet others where severe damage is done. I personally am of the opinion that it is difficult to speak of the head as one generalization. There are many truths, depending on what targets you are speaking of and how they are hit. Not to mention taking out the eyes. Many months ago I was doing some sparring with a fellow student using these super thin plastic tubes that are used to cover florescent lights, as a pseudo dimming device. The walls flex on impact, so the damage to the body is all surface damage. They are extremely light, and have very thin walls. We were able to go safely full impact, and although well delivered strikes would leave bruises, there was no real damage, or so we thought. I had hit him to the face repeatedly whenever he tried to come in, and he requested that we eliminate head strikes because I was coming dangerously close to his eyes, so I agreed. We sparred a little more, and then at the very end we were ready to call it quits and we decided to go for one last attack. We both lunged at the same time, and while he was trying to strike my arm he accidentally caught me in the eye instead. I lost vision in that eye and was in a daze. It was off to the hospital for me. I was relieved when the doctor told me that there was no permanent damage and that the eye wasn't scratched (it seems I must have gotten lucky and blinked at the moment of impact). I was wearing glasses when it happened, but the frames got completely wrapped around and mangled and had flown across the parking lot. The next day my sparring partner wrote a message to me that he had woken up to go to work and his face was all scratched up on both sides, and he was counting the bruises. I could see out of my eye, but my vision was not back to normal (but it was after a few days). We both thought about what the damage would have been with rattan sticks. Or worse, hardwood sticks. Or even worse, a blade. It is hard to describe how gentle the impact of these plastic tubes is. But one clean shot to the eye took me out of commision, whereas I could easily have stood there and let him beat on my body, and most of the skull for a long period of time with virtually no pain. But some targets are just so susceptible. Marc MacYoung has some interesting thoughts on this in at least one of his books. Getting the nose wacked around sideways. Having your eyes taken out. This only scratches the surface of what targets are available when it comes to the head. I understand that Gat Puno Abon regularly cut the fights short by giving the opponent one of his infamous head strikes. One time he put an opponent in the hospital and the guy never fully recovered, and if I understood correctly, Gat Puno Abon was banned from fighting in that town again. Originally they were going to ban the entire town of Paete, but he was able to work out a deal where only he was banned. Gat Puno Abon had done nothing wrong in the fight, since there were no rules against head shots, but they found that there is a big difference between indescriminate shots to the head, and shots to the head from someone who knows the vulnerabilities of the head. The head is an exceptionally good target, but not just the head in general. The throat can also be an extremely dangerous target, but the same thing applies. In short, Ray is correct. People often take very hard strikes to the head and are able to continue going. Also, sometimes there is a delayed reaction, and a strike to the head does not show damage until long after the strike. However, other head targets can take a person out of a fight immediately, and Gat Puno Abon was famous for taking opponents out of fights immediately with a head strike. But he generally didn't like ending fights quickly and so generally reserved these strikes for later in the fight, or sometimes at the beginning when he came up against an opponent who was particularly antagonistic. Onetime he was in a fight and the opponent looked at him and laughed and said your too small to hit hard and you're going to be an easy fight. Gat Puno Abon hit him in the head so hard the guy couldn't see, and the guy later explained that all he remembers is standing there being struck repeatedly until being knocked out, yet could not even see his opponent. Later the two became friends, and the guy told him that he had never experienced anyone who could strike remotely that hard. There is also a particular strike to the sholder that causes a person to release their grip, but they aren't aware of it. There were some fights where the opponent cocked their arm back and he'd give them a quick strike to the sholder, and then he'd stand there with a smile on his face while the attacker swung forward and looked in disbelief when they noticed they were no longer holding their stick, that it had dropped behind their back. He seems to have liked entertaining himself at the tournaments. If you know him to any extent at all, nothing I've written above would come as a surprise. It is hard to imagine what skill this man has. Well, basically, for whatever my opinion might be worth, the head is an exceptionally good target, but can also be a not so good target, depending on who the practitioner is and how they target the head. I personally think the head and knees are the best targets, but I acknowledge many others that make good targets. Students of Gat Puno Abon find out very quickly that there is no way to sheild their head from his strikes. His stikes angle right around any obstacle anyone tries to put up. It is hard to describe the feeling of helplessness as you try to protect your head, and yet it is childs play for him to go right around anything you do and strike the head repeatedly. Of course, he does it lightly and with padded sticks with us. But when you know just how hard and fast he is able to strike, how good his distancing and targeting (accuracy) are, how easily he strikes right around anything you do with blocking being futile, well, even then it would still not be so scary if not for the fact that he is so non-telegraphic. That's the part that gets me. It's one thing when someone is extremely fast, and while you're too slow to stop from getting hit, you're mentally prepared for it. But when you get hit and you never even see that a strike was initiated, and then you think back to all of those other things. I can't find words to describe it. BTW, I owe letters to several people out there, and I appologize for being away from e-mail so long. I haven't forgotten anyone. Also, my public thanks to Tom Furman for his recommendation of "Mastering the Zone", and other related info. This book is one of the best book recommendations I've ever gotten. Rocky, if you haven't checked it out yet, do so. I dropped to 11% body fat in a few weeks while only losing barely more than five pounds. I plan to put those few pounds back on in muscle. The fat, love handles, etc., just melted away, yet there was very little weight loss. Even for those who are already lean, the advice on eating, health, and well-being is fantastic. Well, too little time. Got to go. Best wishes to all. Lonnie student of the "Garimot" system of Arnis ------------------------------ From: "Bill Lowery" Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:07:39 PDT Subject: eskrima: Re: MAI Magazine Hi All, I've just bought a copy of IKF (June 1999) and there is an advert for MAI magazine with Sammo Huang on the cover dated April 1999. Now on this very forum much talk has been about the mag ending it's publishing run with the January 1999 issue (the one with Marc Denny on the cover). So has the mag folded or not? Bill billlowery@excite.com _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------ From: Loki Jorgenson Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:51:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Which end of the stick? Forwarded on behalf of Marc Denny - ------------------------------------------------- A Howl etc: Al S. wrote: >"Higher Consciousness through Harder Contact ©" that is the credo of the >Dog Brothers. This may have been discussed before but do participants >at the Gatherings hold back their power strikes against other opponents? >From what little I have seen on TV and in a DB videotape it appears little >or no headgear is worn. Is the head an off limits target? Based on what >I have seen in person, what I have felt from my instructor Gat Puno Abon, >and the "stories" (Big Joe are you reading this?) of his past fights, a >good shot to the head will stop if not end a fight. > >Now I understand what the credo means and is a very valid statement. But >with no disrespect to Guro Marc Denny and the entire Dog Brothers >association I think of the following when I think about Gat Puno Abon doing >the striking: "Unconsciousness through Harder Contact" > END QUOTE In answer to the question, unless the fighters are very unequal, power is full tilt boogie to all parts of the body including the head. Concerning the head gear, in the early days the fencing masks were what we call "pre-Ralph Nader", basically screen door mesh wrapped around the head. With these, a very high % of the force is communicated. The shot of Top Dog knocking me out that appears at the beginning of DB #1 was the worst shot of my life. However, over the years the fencing masks have gotten so heavy that the term "helmet" could apply. (Most of us old timers still use the pre-Nader ones BTW) Still we have people getting dropped, albeit momentarily, but it does require superior power. I readily agree that there are many cases during the course of a day where people survive, often entirely unaffected, solely by virtue of the headgear and in some cases the apparent "outcome" of the fight seems to be other than it should have been. For example, someone who would have been dropped without the protection of the fencing headgear goes on to "win" on the ground. The philosophy I apply in my own case is to assume that if I am the one being hit that the headgear saved my ass and that my skill was deficient and that if my opponent is the one being hit in the headgear and survives I assume that he is like the guy unfazed by a monkey wrench hit that Ray posted about and continue about my business in the fight. IMHO as a practical matter, this type of approach works only in a "no judges, no referees, no trophies" context such as ours. Some observations concerning placement in my experience: Placement matters! Horizontals to the side of the head have good KO potential, as do those in the area behind the ear. (I think this is where Salty hit Top to drop him in DB#3-- guys?) In a fight about a year and a half ago I was doing really well but caught one in this area on the way out from an exchange. This was an unprotected hit just behind where the mask covered. It was only a medium strength shot, but I felt it affect me and so I changed my strategy to closing and won the fight on the ground using my stick. In DB#1 you can see me take a full shot to the top of the head in an area where protection is basically zilch and I was completely unaffected. Similarly in a helllacious fight two years ago between Dogzilla and Big Erv, BE was standing in D's guard without any headgear at all and D was hit him as hard as he could on the top of the head several times to no apparent effect. Agreed that power is less than maximum from guard, but D. is a 230 pound hard hitter. Also granted that few take a shot as well as BE, but still when combined with my aforementioned experience, I would say that shots to the top of the skull can often be shrugged off. Shots to the face work. Through the mask, Salty once hit a nerve under my cheek bone and I was glad that there were only some 30 seconds left to the fight. I'm glad that even the old masks protect the nose, eyes, and nerve-ending intense areas of the face. As for the Higher Consciousness/Higher Unconscious thing, Al is not the first to joke on this. Within the tribe we will use the same phrase when we feel someone needs an attitude adjustment. Ultimately, which expression is applicable depends upon which end of the stick you are. ;-) Woof, Crafty PS: It may not be a coincidence that Pekiti Tirsia's #1 and #2 strikes are horizontals to the head-- Bill? Sled? ------------------------------ From: "big Joe A." Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:07:40 PDT Subject: eskrima: R-E-S-P-E-C-T Mr. Sardinas, This whole tunnel of death thing is hard for me to believe. I mean you expect me to believe that they were able to rig up a tunnell with Indiana Jones type booby traps. It may be possible but I find it to be highly unlikely. As far as the respect thing goes. I have the utmost respect for all the instructors and "masters" out there. I can understand the stories being told when they relate to or stress a point that the instructor is trying to make. But all the stories floating around about this "master" killing such and such guy because he disrespected him or challenged him. WHO CARES ????? What does that have to do with what he is teaching you. If he is truly as good as he says he is then he shouldn't have to tell you how many people he knocked out or killed in this match or the other. When you work out with him you should be able to read his experience in the way he moves. The proof is in the doing and not the saying. As my instructor says its easy to say do this and do that but to do it is an entirely different thing. As far as champion boxer, sprinter, etc. you don't here about how there coach did this or that or the other. So why say this instructor did this that or the other. I always thought that these "masters" were supposed to be men in control not just of their bodies but also of themselves. So called "men of peace" so why should they brag about killing and maiming people. Well I hope this keeps the discussion going. Again no disrespect meant I just want to get a good discussion going. I am not condemning anybody because I make it a point to respect everyone's opinion. That doesn't mean though that I will agree with it. Your Friend in Training, Big Joe P.S. Mr. Terry I was wondering if it would be alright with you if I reposted the info on the seminar wiht my instructor a couple of times over the next two months. "The only constant in LIFE is Change." -N.B.S.- _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Kevin Kirk Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: IMHO, The Tunnel Story is True Yea, crawling out of my hole again, In regards to the DeCuerdas Tunnel, I admit to having a little doubt about this story but, I did feel it was true. My feelings were confirmed just last year, I saw a documentary on a local PBS station - I'm sorry I can't remember the name of the program or even where it was filmed, possibly Malayasia, or Indonesia, I do remember it was not in the Philippines, certainly I saw jungle :-) Anyway, the narrator and film crew show a large cave in the jungle and show some of the old bamboo devices in the cave and describe how this was used as a training device for warriors. They never described it as a death tunnel but, did say that the old timers told them many people were maimed and some died from their injuries. I hope someone else saw this program. This segment lasted only about one or two minutes. Naturally, since this was the most interesting part of the whole film, the only part I remember. If another culture can think this up surely this lends a lot of credence to the Tunnel of Death story. For me, I have no doubts now that this story is true. Maybe, it was not as deadly as presented in story and was more like a training device. Certainly, just calling it a Tunnel of Death will test a warriors heart, and courage. Maybe that's part of the training too, to see if you can overcome your deep fear of the place. Now, as for the Blind Princess :-) Yea, I admit it, I still have my doubts. Not that a woman could be such good martial artist, I have no doubt about that but, maybe she could see a lttle? :-) - -Kevin ------------------------------ From: Ed Lam Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:20:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Tunnel of death Hello, How about a simpler, more fundamental question. Did the Eskrimadores of old have the engineering expertise to built such a tunnel? Who maintained it? Yoda? If it wasn't actively maintained, than how can it keep on functioning? "Honey, I'll be late for dinner tonight. Have to go change the oil in the Cave of Death" Ed === _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: " Bad Karma " Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:41:53 -0700 Subject: eskrima: re: tunnel of death 2 sides of the coin? Let's assume -- for the sake of argument --the "tunnel of death" really exists (or existed). It's supposed to be a big secret, right? So why would anyone take the "great unwashed" on a guided tour of these tunnels? Now, this brings us to a big problem: Proving a negative. None of us can prove the legendary "tunnel of death" _doesn't_exist_. Believers will say, "See? You can't prove it doesn't exist, therefore it must be real." ...and the argument will rage on for at least another generation. - -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums ------------------------------ From: "Jesse & Anne Greenawalt" Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:53:32 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: Higher Consciousness... Al the Fish wrote: <<>> I've never been to a gathering, but at the DBIMA seminar I attended, I sure wasn't holding back. Now, I'm a little guy, but so was my opponent. We did use rattan instead of hickory (or steel!), and we had fencing HELMETS on. In that situation, I'd rather get tagged on the (protected parts of the) head than the ribs, arms, etc. I've never seen a taped fight that didn't start with SOME headgear, though it often gets tossed when the fight goes to the grapple. Many at gatherings use much lighter gear, and are stronger hitters, so that changes things greatly, but I WAS surprised at how we all just kept going through body/limb shots, which I thought would be more shocking & debilitating. A great experience, courtesy of Marc Denny... jester ------------------------------ From: " Bad Karma " Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:53:50 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: TKD vs knife... M.B. wrote: > View the situation from the robber's point > of view. He cases the joint, target: teenage girl, > assessment: low threat potential, will intimidate > easily, probably cry. > The robber probably never attacked the girl, > he threatens her. He stands still before her > demanding money. She has a stationary target in his > hand and he expects no retaliation. He is the easy > target. Rather like a practice session on,"How to > kick the knife out someone's hand". Sure. But none of this refutes that this TKD practitioner put her art to *real* use and emerged victorious. This is the objective fact. Any comments to the effect of "...well, he wasn't a stone-cold killer..." are pointless. Maybe the same thing won't work the next time. Maybe it will. It's all speculation. - -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums ------------------------------ From: David Reyes Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:20:39 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Skirmish > > The "Welcome to DBMAA" tape has begun editing and at the moment the plan > is to include: > There will also be very > rare and very HOT footage of GM Edgar, GT Gaje, and Guro Inosanto in > action. Might there be a chance of seeing footage from Guro Inosanto's movie "Skirmish"? Salamat, David Reyes~ ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #202 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.