From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #207 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Mon, 17 May 1999 Vol 06 : Num 207 In this issue: eskrima: movie - Ring of Steel eskrima: id games are not evil... eskrima: Re: Knife disarms eskrima: Re: Schools near Lexington, KY eskrima: Re: no written history of american knifefighters? eskrima: Re: killing eskrima: Re: "On Killing" eskrima: Knife Control BOUNCE eskrima: Non-member submission from [TUHONBILL (fwd) eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1050 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary 808" Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 16:55:52 -0700 Subject: eskrima: movie - Ring of Steel I am not sure if this subject has been discussed before. If so then skip it. I saw the movie Ring of Steel last week. Its not a great movie by any stretch but it had interesting battles between different styles of blade arts. I'm sure some of the arts were not genuine. But how accurate can a b-rated movie be right? The main character is a competitive fencer who gets "trapped" in an underground blade fighting tournament. He battles other combatants with a rapier and dagger(??). The fights are not set up to be to to-the-death but they do get cut. Hand strikes, kicking, and a little grappling are put into the mix. Except for the flashy moves, I thought it was an interesting movie. Hopefully future sequels will include at least one FMA fighter. Has anyone else seen this movie? Any comments on it? gary808@eudoramail.com Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com ------------------------------ From: Ingo Bojak Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:59:43 +0200 (DFT) Subject: eskrima: id games are not evil... On Mon, 17 May 1999 J. Kevin Curtis wrote: > As an added note.... the author says that we as society are desensitizing > our youth through violent movies and video games. I was always skeptical > when I heard this argument before, but after reading this book and becoming > aware that the military actually uses a version of the video game Doom to > train it's troops. The author, Lt. Col. Grossman who appeared on Face the > Nation(?) after the Columbine tragedy, said that the gunmen who were video > game aficionados, reacted just the way the Game teaches....going for a head > or torso shot and immediately moving on to the next target(to rack up > points). They fired 15 times and got something like 12 headshots and 3 torso > shots, as compared to recent case where NY police officers fired like a 100 > times at close range only getting like 15% hits. > Well, as a member of DIS, the Quake 2 Loki Minion CTF Clan that currently leads the table of the German national league DQ2LL, I would comment that I wouldn't be surprised to see id type games (Doom, Quake I, Quake II and now Quake 3 Arena Test Version) improve visual reaction time, spatial awareness, hand-eye coordination and target recognition and selection speed. But it certainly doesn't teach you how to wield and use a real gun. There is a big difference between moving your mouse and tapping your keyboard according to what is happening on a 17 inch diagonal box of comic strip violence and moving and shooting in the real world. Otherwise I could also easily steer an F-16, win the world cup at soccer and become the number one at tennis. Concerning the desensitizing issue I would like to point out that I played a plethora of fairly "brutal" computer games as a kid, like one that gave you points according to which person you drove dead with a car, and I haven't yet killed my neighbours (though I'm tempted). If you want to look at reasons for child killers, look at bad parenting and not at a game of Doom/Quake. Such stuff is perhaps like alcohol - if your parents help you to learn how to use it moderately, at the right age, it can add extra fun to your life. If they don't give a damn about what you do, you may end up as a drunkard. Ciao, Ingo - --- "When you come to a fork in the road, take it." Yogi Berra ------------------------------ From: "Todd D. Ellner" Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 17:02:59 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: Knife disarms >Now.. The more theoretical.. Peter brought back a concept from studying >with some Serak players in Oregon Hey! I resemble that remark! >that we really liked which is Hi/Lo.. >Jason here on the list also uses this concept in his Doce Pares (Tip of the >hat Jason... Thanks again for the class man!).. That is attacking the weapon >arm at both a Hi Point and a Lo point. The concept as I understand it (and >we discovered through experimentation) was to immobilize the arm in a joint >lock which can be more effective than a grab (sweat can make the skin >slipery). Kinda sorta. That's one application. The idea is really pretty simple. It's based on applied pessimism. You make sure that both the high line and low line are guarded on the theory that if you stop it on one line he's probably going to attack you on the other one - the way a boxer will hook low then high in quick succession. If you are getting in close and monitoring both high and low there are fewer ways he can attack. Then it becomes a much simpler matter to control the arm and the body. And you don't have to be as fast - you know where the opening is, and many times you can wait for him to take it. ------------------------------ From: Mike Casto Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 17:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Re: Schools near Lexington, KY << I'll be visiting friends in Lexington, Kentucky over Memorial Day weekend and might be able to fit in some training time. I'm not familiar with the area, so I would like something as close as possible to the Univ of Kentucky (where my friend teaches). If anyone knows of a school near by, I'd appreciate hearing about it. >> Try: AFS Academy of Martial Arts (606)623-8023 They're in Richmond, KY ... which is a suburb of Lexington. They are primarily a Wing Chun & Jun Fan/JKD school, but they also do some Kali. I've got a friend who trains there and I've attended a couple of seminars there. It's a good school. Mike === Mike Casto Assistant Instructor Asian Fighting Arts Filipino Kali/ 5099 Springboro Pike Indonesian Pentjak Silat Dayton, OH 45439 Phone: (937) 293-5520 URL: http://www.guild-hall.com/afa/ _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 20:20:59 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: no written history of american knifefighters? from:leighans@aol.com could that have something to do with the fact that literacy was not very common among those who lived by their arts? ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 20:36:55 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: killing from:leighans@aol.com can we kill?...hmmmm...good question....since we as a species seem to be so dead set on the idea of being civilized and as far removed from nature as possible, it also follows that we are trying to breed out certain primal instincts such as the fight responce while trying to keep the flight intact.....this has proved to be effective for the liberal and so called intelligentsia....they would have us to believe that such low animal behavior is not needed in our age of sophisticated development....however, crime statistics show us otherwise.....the very nature of law enforcement makes it a reactive responce rather than a proactive one....a cop cant stop a murderer until he has committed the crime.....saying 'i thought he was going to kill someone' just isnt enough to detain or jail a perp.......a crime does not exist until it has been committed.....therefore the only logical and sensible recourse we have, is ourselves....just like a boss, a cop is never around when we need one, but when we dont need them, we cant get rid of them......killing is not the answer to every situation, but there is a time and place for everything, even that.....if you lack the will and desire to survive, you do yourself and your loved ones a severe injustice.......have a nice day ------------------------------ From: "Todd D. Ellner" Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 17:55:22 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: "On Killing" >Just finished a very interesting book titled "ON KILLING"....thanks to the >ED poster(?) who recommended it. Very good book which examines this rarely >touched upon subject. The book looks at killing in time of war, and in >society. >The author states that man has such a normal aversion to killing that only >15 to 20% of soldiers in W.W.II ever fire their weapons. [snip] >But, through >desensitization the military was able to raise this rate to 90-95%. That's what martial arts is, right down at the pointy end. It provides you with a conditioned response to fear and pain other than freezing and allows the training to take over so that the squeamish part of you can take a short vacation until it's all over. What Grossman also goes into at great length is the effect of the two sorts of training. In WWII military units were a cohesive social unit of (mostly) regular citizens who were able to slowly process what had happened to them on the ship back home. On the whole they did pretty well even though unit casualties exceeded 100% over the course of a couple years in many cases. We are still paying for the Vietnam war. The percentage of our homeless who were Vietnam era vets is staggering. We got a lot of our drug problem from returning soldiers who had been self-medicating in an effort at slow suicide or to dull the pain of what they did. Soldiers would be on patrol in the jungle in the morning and back in the States after a lonely plane ride just a few hours later. I've met an awful lot of guys who still have a touch of swamp fever decades later. That's why the subtitle is "The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill". >My question is... could we (martial artists) kill if the need arose? Do you >think that we are doing a form of desensitization when we practice our knife >drills? Is there a need for desensitization in martial artists? It is indeed desensitization. We are being taught to respond to a stimulus (e.g. a knife heading towards the guts) in predictable efficient ways. In classes which do modern simulation and confrontation training (e.g. Impact!, Modern Warrior, or the self defense classes Tiel and I teach) there is even more psychological conditioning. Fear or pain == attack, and they are conditioned not to stop for anything until they hear a whistle. I think that a certain amount of desensitization is vital if you are practicing martial arts for self-protection. You will get hurt, and you might get cut, but if you are conditioned and desensitized you will not stop, and you will act in the (hopefully) efficient way that you have been taught without hesitation. This can save your life. Of course the more skill you have the more options you have. But it's important to go through the other sort of training, particularly at the beginning until you are good enough, as my Sera teacher puts it, to "fight with contempt" - contempt for the danger the other guy presents to you. >As an added note.... the author says that we as society are desensitizing >our youth through violent movies and video games. I was always skeptical >when I heard this argument before, but after reading this book and becoming >aware that the military actually uses a version of the video game Doom to >train it's troops. The author, Lt. Col. Grossman who appeared on Face the >Nation(?) after the Columbine tragedy, said that the gunmen who were video >game aficionados, reacted just the way the Game teaches....going for a head >or torso shot and immediately moving on to the next target(to rack up >points). They fired 15 times and got something like 12 headshots and 3 torso >shots, as compared to recent case where NY police officers fired like a 100 >times at close range only getting like 15% hits. That's really frightening. Take someone who grew up around guns, target shooting, hunting or the like. He's been conditioned to treat firearms with respect as potentially dangerous tools and only to use them in specific controlled circumstances. An insufficiently socialized gamer thinks of them much more cavalierly and looks at everything that moves as a target. Add to that the equation of killing = pleasure and the presence of more testosterone than myelin, and you have one scary individual. I don't go to many action flicks and never watch slasher movies if I can help it. It's really strange. When I practice Silat or do confrontation training or the like my head goes into a very special place - immediate action, no compassion, deal with things as quickly and thoroughly as possible. Tiel says my eyes go flat, my breathing changes, and the skin on my face pulls back; everything we know about combat mindset we learned from our cats I guess :-) But dead teenager flicks and chase-and-shoot movies, unless they're over-the-top Hong Kong action films, really bother me. I have trouble understanding a mind which would enjoy seeing people shot, burned, or hacked to death. It's just plain sick. >Getting back to Kali, the author made the statement that when the blade came >into play a slash was much more common. He feels that man has a much greater >aversion to stabbing. Slashing is more often defensive as well. In prisons the stabbing weapons are considered offensive ones for assassination. Ones designed for cutting are more often for keeping an attacker away. >Check out this book. I think there is some crossover to the martial arts. >This book isn't a morbid as it might sound(not quite anyway); it is really a >methodical(?) look at this subject. Sometimes he makes a little too much stew from one oyster, and it gets repetitive at times. But Grossman's book is one of the few truly indispensable ones for people interested in the subject of deadly force. Todd ------------------------------ From: "Steve Klement" Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:13:56 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Knife Control Mr. Steve Wolk wrote (in regard to the question "Do you rely only on single hand grabbs to secure the hand long enough to disarm?") : > I was taught never to believe in single handed grabs against a knife. Yo= u must > always have two points of control (i.e. two hands on the knife hand, one = hand on > the knife hand and another on the knife arm, etc.). Someone skilled with= a > knife can always re-angle to escape (or cut while being held) against a one-hand > hold. At very least, they can use their second (free) hand to strip the = hold. > I've seen lots of stuff using one-hand grips that looks real pretty, but = I don't > believe it works against skilled opponents. > > Steve Wolk > swolk@nexstar.com Right on Steve! Disarms, IMO, are techniques of opportunity only anyway. If your training suggest that you are just gonna be able to reach out and yank an edged weapon out of your opponents hand with a one handed, two handed or three handed grip at will think twice. In regard to your last sentence... your right! A =B3skilled=B2 opponent you will probably never even see, only feel. Even with a guy that doesn't know what he=B9s doing but happens to move fast... understand that if your doing good you will be getting cut =B3in the right places=B2. By the way, just in case it sounds like I don=B9t believe in attempting disarms, I strongly do but... only when the opportunity presents itself or you have made the opportunity present itself. My students and I practice disarms religiously but they understand the unfortunate reality. They will never =B3go for a disarm=B2 but will be prepared if the situation arises. Steve Klement Inayan School of Eskrima http://www.shoponthenet.com/Inayan/ ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 19:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BOUNCE eskrima: Non-member submission from [TUHONBILL (fwd) You are subscribed as TUHON@email.msn.com. Please correct. Ray - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Forwarded message: Subject: BOUNCE eskrima: Non-member submission from [TUHONBILL ] Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:00:55 -0700 From: TUHONBILL Subject: PEKITI INSIDE KUNG-FU The July issue of Inside Kung-Fu Magazine has my article on the differences between large and small knife techniques. It should be on the newsstands by the beginning of June. Also, the current issue of Filipino Martial Arts magazine (Vol 1 NO 6)has an introductory article on Pekiti-Tirsia by Mike Alfano. Regards, Tuhon Bill McGrath ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 19:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #207 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.