From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #213 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Thurs, 20 May 1999 Vol 06 : Num 213 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #211 Re: eskrima: Knife Fighting/Knife Defense eskrima: Aggro Man, part 3 Re eskrima: Japanese ranking in FMA eskrima: Re: Real deal knife fighting eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #211 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #211 eskrima: Movies With weapons eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #212 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #211 eskrima: what you know. eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #212 - Kevlar stuff eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #207 eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1050 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tony pfeiffer Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 15:13:42 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #211 Rodney King thing -- I too watched it multiple times, most with a Director of Law Enforcement Training at a community college. His reluctant conclusion was that the LEO's erred. Why? Too many distinct breaks in the action; that is, beating then a pause and so on. Also no attempt was made to immobilze (pile on and handcuff) after the first beating. Furthermore, he was critical of the PR24 technique -- all hits and no pokes. ------------------------------ From: "Todd D. Ellner" Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 15:09:10 -0700 Subject: Re: eskrima: Knife Fighting/Knife Defense >The knife-fighting thread reminded me of a question... I came across a copy of >a US Cavalry catalog, and inside I saw an ad for Kevlar gloves, forearm >"sleeves", and balaclavas that supposedly provided some level of protection >from bladed weapons. >Has anyone had any experience with these things? Do they provide any >appreciable protection? Or are they just a gimmick? Thanks. Some of them work better than others, but they almost all seem to have the same failings: o useless against stabs o get cut all to heck when you use a spyderco-style serrated blade ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 16:33:39 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Aggro Man, part 3 A Howl etc" Fry Bread Boy wrote: > I heard of a fighting style where the fighter utilizes siniwalli's and a > staff at the same time. The fighter grips the middle section 6' staff/spear > between both of his/her forearm/bicep pits( is there a word for that > area???), I believe its called the antecubital fosse (spelling probably wrong) and Ingo wrote: > Marc Denny wrote: > > > It is commonly believed by many that man has less instinct than animals. > > I posit the contrary-- that we have more, and the interplay between this > > greater panoply of instincts is what makes humans more complex, and this > > interplay is a major component driving the development of our intelligence. > > > I think Marc is mistaken here. There is in general a trend in animals that > the more "intelligent" their behaviour is, the less instincts they > display. This is natural - intelligent behaviour is adaptive and learned, > not a pre-programmed response. Humans certainly still have instincts, but > it is exactly their strong reliance on _learned_ behaviour which separates > them from other animals. That is not to say that intelligence is like an > all-purpose tool, recent research suggests it's more like a gigantic > toolbox. But with "instincts" we basically mean "robotic" reactions which > are _not_ the speciality of humans. I think I understand Ingo's point, but am not sure he understands mine. Just because a behavior has instinct at its root, does not mean at all that its expression will be robotic-- quite the contrary in the case of an intelligent animal. Arguably the intelligence arose so that the animal could more effectively express its instincts! We are agreed that aggression is a human instinct, and as an expression thereof there is a drive for status, arguably more in males than females, and look at all the extraordinary things humans do in their drive for status. Of course there is the continuum of nature/nurture. As Noam Chomsky and others have shown, humans have an instinctual need for language, yet they must be taught/exposed to it. So agreed that the dividing line is not always clear, but still I am not persuaded by Ingo's reasoning. > The sex instinct is a particularily nice example, since it is among the > most fundamental urges of all creatures. Which is why I used it. ;-) > Nevertheless humans display a > bewildering variety of expressing that urge which certainly leaves mere > reproduction far behind. And humans can _control_ this urge to an amazing > extent. But rarely without limitation or consequence. You can pull a rubber band, but not indefinitely. Ultimately it will snap or snap back. > The fact that we are _not_ starting to reproduce around puberty > anymore, as Marc pointed out, is a case in point! Perhaps because if one bothers to get educated and develop one's career etc first then one's offspring have a better chance of succeeding in life. Thus the behavior is an intelligence based response to more effective reproduction. > Humans do not _have to_ > reproduce, even if they have enough hormones in their blood to make it > sizzle. Some humans even manage to live in celibacy for religious reasons, > which is a demonstration that humans can even _learn_ to value certain > social norms more than the one and only (biological) reason why they are > alive in the first place. Not everyone is meant to reproduce, and it is possible to have a worthy life without reproducing, but in evolutionary terms all that don't reproduce are failures. > Also Marc's "nocturnal emission" example is > rather close to that border where we do not talk about instincts but about > biological functions. Most people wouldn't call the fact that their heart > keeps beating an instinct. If you have a finite storage space which is > constantly filled and never emptied, it will at some point overflow... The first time I've run into this point, but I confess I do not find it persuasive. It seems like a distinction without a difference. Ultimately, Ingo is saying that at some point it will overflow-- which is my point exactly! I would point out though that the NE is triggered by the mind i.e. dreams about sex. Thus, externally the expression of the sexual instinct is, as far as the external world is concerned, a spontaneous event. When aggression does not get to discharge, ("filled and never emptied" in Ingo's words) once again the mind will find a way to see the world so as to justify an aggressive discharge-- again, in a sense, a spontaneous event. Given the technology that can be used in the modern world in connection with this aggressive discharge this is HIGHLY undesirable. > To get back to aggression (and thus to the pretence that this is still > FMA-related ;-) ): this certainly is a human instinct. But just as > certainly its expression has always been heavily modified by the learned > social norms and by the intelligent minds pondering the issue. Nowadays we > are getting pretty close to the "celibacy" ideal and to me that isn't a > bad thing! Disagree! It simply is unrealistic to expect young men and women on the whole not to fornicate. Let us use the military as an example. I trust we can agree that there is an unusually strong sense of "social norms" in the military, yet there was one ship in the Gulf War where 25% (!!!!!!) of the women became pregnant. Even in the US, uhhh, "strike-a-pose appearance" in Bosnia, the pregnancy rate was 5%. >I do think that it is possible to turn the remaining aggression > to safe places. For people with little natural aggression a quick game of > Quake may be enough, for those with more steam games like soccer and > American football allows controlled physical aggression and for those > people who are a sado-masochistical time bomb on two legs we always have > the Dog Brothers... ;-) Agreed. ;-) > I certainly do not wish to return to the behaviour > pattern of (some of) the Indians, starting to reproduce around 14 because > tribal wars with lots of healthy violence probably kill you off before 30, > in our modern world. If it is the natural expression of human nature to > take the scalp of your enemy in the morning and to play with your children > in the evening, then yeah, I'm all for the unnatural forcing yourself to > skip the scalp bit... Although there is certainly room for disagreement, I believe that you are misinformed about Amerindians BEFORE THE WHITE MAN CAME. Although I have seen contrary writings, it is my understanding that scalping was originated by the white man as a form of proof before paying a bounty on killing of Amerindians. It is my semi-informed opinion that "warfare" amongst the Amerindians was far less brutal and homicidal that European warfare. Whereas the English deliberately gave smallpoxed blankets to uhh, I think it may have been Seneca and the Mohawks (not sure on this but I know the case of which I am thinking was in New York) in order to wipe them out, Amerindian "war" rarely if ever sought genocide and even included the concept of "counting coup" wherein a great act of warrior bravery was coupled with NOT taking life. To prevent genetic inbreeding, tribes must interbreed. This can be done by war or in peace. In many areas of North America this was accomplished peacefully on the whole. Before the white man came, the Iroquois Confederacy, from which Ben Franklin got the idea for American Federalism, allowed a vast nation of tribes to get along in peace. It was as the white man pushed the Amerindians westward that the political stability that existed began to disintegrate. But ultimately, we are in agreement. I too don't really want to scalp anyone. But I do believe that the primal energies within us should be celebrated and not denied or repressed. The trick of course, is how. As has written on the wall of his training hall "Peace is not the absence of conflict, it is the management of conflict." > Ciao, > Ingo > - --- > "When you come to a fork in the road, take it." Yogi Berra This is profound. Anyway, there it is. Woof, Crafty Dog ------------------------------ From: "Tye W. Botting" Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:34:48 +0000 Subject: Re eskrima: Japanese ranking in FMA %From: "Dave Green" %Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 17:34:36 +0100 %Subject: eskrima: Japanese ranking in FMA %>> Doce Pares, Modern Arnis... Two more that use %>> the Dan system for ranking. % %> I did not know this. How did they come to adopt this convention? % %Many Doce Pares people in the PI also trained in Judo and some in Karate - %this is probably where the idea came from. However, Black Belt grades are %refered to as "degree" rather than "Dan" as far as I'm aware. Same for Modern Arnis. Officially, they are referred to as the Lakan (or Dayang for females) grades. Degrees are also used, Lakan Isa being 1st degree black belt (Lakan grade, before Isa, is simply black belt). Dans are used by either of two classes of people, IMNSHO - those who are too lazy to find out more about the art, or those who use "Dan" thinking that that will be more easily recognizable or perhaps might sound more official to some people. Tye, Lakan Dalawa Modern Arnis ------------------------------ From: "Jesse & Anne Greenawalt" Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:06:14 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: Real deal knife fighting Kim wrote: > whenever a discussion on "knife fighting, knife > defense," etc. ad naseum comes up, I really would like for some contributor > to be honest enough to step up and say,..."Geez, although we train with > wooden/aluminum knives in class, and I know lots and lots of drills, I've > never been in a real, blood and guts knife fight, so we probably should defer > this question to someone who has been there." Perhaps, but WHAT question? I don't ask those good at teaching FMA knife drills what a knife fight is about; I go to them for drills. Ones that may give me attributes for a better chance of survival in the worst case. Likewise, I would love to discuss what "really goes down" with a survivor and gain some mental insight, some of which I can hopefully apply in training; but I don't expect him to be able to help me improve my physical prowess as much. Survivors may be such because they were good, or lucky, or both. But relating the details of a particular attack that they survived in a particular fashion MAY be the only thing they HAVE to teach me. Valuable, yes, but more so than the other? > If you ever have the > opportunity to listen to someone who has faced a knife and lived, and seen > the horrible wounds a knife produces, a lot of the discussions based on > theory and experimentation will go right out the window. Fine, but one needn't face a knife for this. I never assume that training is anything but a (sometimes pale) reflection of reality. Although the closest I've ever come to "real deal" is via videos ("Surviving Edged Weapons" is a good one), I don't think I harbor many misconceptions about the possible horrors. > I am not > recommending that anyone go out and get in a knife fight, but please, don't > discuss what you don't know!!! I don't care how many drills you do, how > realistic you think training with artificial weapons is, the real thing ain't > nothing like what is being discussed here. And neither are many other dangerous endeavors that people train for unrealistically. Soldiers don't train "real life", they simulate it. Yes, they'll be in for a shock when it goes down (segue to the veteran thread - -) ) but they do the best they can, and that's all I can do. > There are still some of the guys from the old days around, men whose life > depended on not only their skill, but their guts. Seek them out, and talk to > them...it will be an eye opener. Absolutely! These people can give a reality check on training, and a training slant for reality. Problem is, there are very few around me that I know of. I'm always looking, though, and will find more in time. I don't mean to slight you in any way; the fact that I'm enjoying this discussion with you is testament to your ability to survive. Just trying to see both sides of the coin... jester ------------------------------ From: "Robert Masson" Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:19:26 PDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #211 >Regarding Rob Masson's comments - he is correct on many points! I >was >there as his low line shots worked..Moving surprisingly quickly >for a VERY >LARGE man, Rob was able to maintain a low posture and >attack high and low >very effectively. Jason, *blush* Tanks Man! *lol* Just goes to show you... Don't stereotype on body types too much... Just cause a guy is big don't necessarily mean he is slow... *wink* Thanks again for the training session... To quote another Big Guy: "I'll be Back.." Rob Masson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Robert Masson" Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:27:15 PDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #211 >...... >Seek them out, and talk to them...it will be an eye opener. >Kim Excellent Points Kim.. *Bow* Nothing Beats Experience... My Partner Peter And I were practicing knife drills one afternoon after a Silat Class.. We were pretty proud at how well we could pass the knife and couter and make it look smooth.. Our Silat instructor watched us for a while and then when we were finished complimented us on how nice it looked.. But warned us that in the real world the knife is likely to never be seen... He then walked right up to me putting his lead arm horizontally across my chest trapping my arms for a second.. Then ticked my belly with the practice knife he had picked up earlier and had been hiding behind him... It was a point well taken that you cannot defend againt that kind of attack with fancy parrys.. Knife fighting is brutal stuff.. Train hard... Be as realistic as possible, talk to real people who have real expereince.. and most importantly.. be ready to RUN LIKE HELL away from a knife encounter.... Rob "Moving Fast for a Big Fella" Masson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Robert Masson" Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:36:41 PDT Subject: eskrima: Movies With weapons Ok... So Here is my suggestion for Movies with Kewl Weapons Work... The Mask of Zorro.. In addition to seing the GLORY of Katherine Zeta-Jones we are also treated to the training of a clumsy Antonio Bandaras.. And guess what.. he is taught swordplay using a series of angles... I was VERY impressed when I seen it... I wonder if Anthony Hopkins is doing any Seminars... *smile* Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:46:29 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #212 In a message dated 99-05-19 17:53:59 EDT, you write: << Has anyone had any experience with these things? Do they provide any appreciable protection? Or are they just a gimmick? Thanks. >> From Animal Against a knife, yes they work...at least against slashes. The thing to remeber against larger blade such as machetes and swords is that while they may not cut through there is enough momentum to break arm bones. Thus it is important to have not only the 'butcher's glove" but padding as well. ------------------------------ From: "arlan and angel sanford" Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:03:33 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #211 >Being that the average age of Viet Nam soldiers was 19, that would >make the >average WW2 participant...14!?!? Actually the average age of combat soldiers in Vietnam was 23. Depending on what you consider Combat related personal, ww2 ranged from 19 to 22 average age. Arlan ------------------------------ From: "C. Herrman" Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 01:25:00 -0400 Subject: eskrima: what you know. Greetings All, Kim wrote: >...whenever a discussion on "knife fighting, knife defense," etc. ad naseum comes up, I really would like for some contributor to be honest enough to step up and say,..."Geez, although we train with wooden/aluminum knives in class, and I know lots and lots of drills, I've never been in a real, blood and guts knife fight, so we probably should defer this question to someone who has been there." >I am not recommending that anyone go out and get in a knife fight, but please, don't discuss what you don't know!!! Me: About two weeks ago I posted a pair of questions: 1.) How do you train someone to effectively deal with street violence? & 2.) How do you train someone to be an effective teacher (in the context of MA/self defense)? Based on the lack of feedback to my questions, perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. I would be truly grateful, if rather than reminding me of the differences between training and reality, someone could provide constructive suggestions for how to bridge the gap. I have no doubt that there are very real, and very big, differences between the way that I train and the realities of a knife fight. I also personally feel that seeking out violence to gain practical experience is counter-procductive to my overall goals as a martial artist. So, how do students gain the experience to effectively deal with violence (armed, or unarmed)? I don't know. My thoughts lately have centered mostly on ways to introduce stress and unpredictability into a training situation. Those seem to be two factors which are common in most self defense situations but uncommon in practice. Any suggestions? Sincerely, Chris H. citrus7@erols.com student: EEMD p.s.- I realize that there will always be a gap between training and reality. I am looking for insight into how to effectively minimize that gap. There are certain factors which surely must be experienced to be understood...and I honestly hope I never experience them. Peace to all who have. ------------------------------ From: "Jon Howard" Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:11:33 -0000 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #212 - Kevlar stuff >The knife-fighting thread reminded me of a question... I came across a copy of >a US Cavalry catalog, and inside I saw an ad for Kevlar gloves, forearm >"sleeves", and balaclavas that supposedly provided some level of protection from >bladed weapons. > >Has anyone had any experience with these things? Do they provide any >appreciable protection? Or are they just a gimmick? Thanks. > Hi there... I don't know about the other stuff, but I have tried out a pair of kevlar gloves, they were very light and felt more like glove liners, I was a little skeptical at first but I was able to tightly grip the blade on a sharp knife and also drag it quite hard across my palm with no ill effects. I'm not sure as to the protection against stabs - the salesman said that the glove "should" help to slow down the stab - depends on the force, design etc,. I've also tried proper chainmail gloves - the kind butchers wear when chopping up big stuff - these REALLY work - although they tend to have a one size fit's all policy and the links can dig in a bit when you grip something tight. They are both best when used with big knives as the gloves do restrict "delicate" movements a bit. On the whole I would recommend the kevlar gloves for anybody in a situation where knives may be drawn - It can freak the other guy out when you grab his blade - might just be the deciding factor. They can also make training with a live blade a bit safer too... Jon... ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:24:48 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #207 Yes. I've seen Ring of Steel. It's more a fun movie than a great one. And the blade work is more accurate than one might think. Best part: the send-up of 40s swashbucklers in the middle. Best line: "Oh, let's say I've had too many accidents in the ring." (O.K., it's a paraphrase.) JB ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 07:53:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #213 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.