From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #217 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sat, 22 May 1999 Vol 06 : Num 217 In this issue: eskrima: Aggro man part 5 eskrima: Elizibethton, Tenn., Garimot Seminar Postponed eskrima: Jedi and Siniwali eskrima: Vietnam, England, Britain, n stuff eskrima: And they say Pinoys are title-conscious... eskrima: women's POV - killing in MA Re: eskrima: Vietnam, England, Britain, n stuff eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1050 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marc Denny" Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 18:33:01 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Aggro man part 5 A Howl of Greeting to All: I suspect Ingo and I are rapidly approaching the point of just going around the mulberry bush with this, so this is my last on this (for now ;-} ) and I leave the last word to Ingo. > On Thu, 20 May 1999 Marc Denny wrote: > > > I think I understand Ingo's point, but am not sure he understands mine. > > > I do. I disagree. You are basically saying: well, whatever I do, I do > it for some reason and ultimately it will be some "instinct" driving me. > But it would be more proper to speak of an urge or drive. By instinctive > behaviour we usually mean a less fuzzy behavioural pattern - for example > the alpha dog attacks and the beta dog flips on the back and bares its > throat. Or statements like "Well, I saw that thing flying towards me and > I instinctively ducked, which saved my life." So this is a terminology quibble? OK. Instinct/Drive/Urge/Whatever. Still, the proposition remains as to the I/D/U/W propelling much of human behavior. And, I would suggest that your proposition that instincts are non"fuzzy" by definition is refuted by what I'm sure we both agree is an instinct: Sex. It is hard to think of something "fuzzier" in its expression than sex. ;-) Yes? > > But rarely without limitation or consequence. You can pull a rubber band, > > but not indefinitely. Ultimately it will snap or snap back. > > > Indeed. But humans can pull it _very_ far with little effort compared to > other animals. Yes we can pull it far, but perhaps even when the rubber band is pulled short of breaking or snapping back, there is consequence in the tension this creates in the organism. I think so. > > Perhaps because if one bothers to get educated and develop one's career etc > > first then one's offspring have a better chance of succeeding in life. > > Thus the behavior is an intelligence based response to more effective > > reproduction. > > > That is nonsense. Reproduction rates _drop_ wherever people get educated. > That's correlation is very well established everywhere in the world. Agreed that reproductive rates drop with education, but I would suggest that spewing as many forth as possible without regard for each offspring's prospects is a strategy of lower intelligence. > > The first time I've run into this point, but I confess I do not find it > > persuasive. It seems like a distinction without a difference. > > > Not at all. Actually I'm pretty certain it kills your argument, but I'm > not enough into medicine to be able to prove it. You are argueing that the > nocturnal emission is due to the surpressed sex drive articulating itself. > We are talking about mental states controlling the body then. On the other > hand I say that the mere fact that semen is continously produced and > stored leads sooner or later to an end of the storage capacity and then > the surplus is emitted. That's like your swallowing when you have too much > salvia in your mouth. Sure, that's "instinctive" in the sense of an > autmatic biological function, but it doesn't lend itself to further > arguments about what humans have to do socially. It just means that men > will discharge unused semen. Nothing more, nothing less. And yes, it will > probably mean "erotic dreams" simply because the emission of semen is > neurologically linked to whatever makes sex fun. Mmm, and we can say that the semen is produced because of the sexual instinct, blah blah and go around and around. As a practical matter, I don't see the difference in what happens between my words and yours-- hence distinction without a difference. I trust even by your definition, sex is an instinct. It expresses. If it makes you happy to say this is merely a storage issue, fine-- but still the sheets get sticky. It is my proposition that the same is the case with Aggression, albeit fuzzily so in many cases, and that it is better to root it in something than strive for a Sisyphean vision of celibacy that is inherently doomed. > > When aggression does not get to discharge, ("filled and never > > emptied" in Ingo's words) once again the mind will find a way to see the > > world so as to justify an aggressive discharge-- again, in a sense, a > > spontaneous event. > > > While it is certain that the human drives to drink, eat, sleep and have > sex ultimately cannot be denied, the same is not proven for aggression. > > > Disagree! It simply is unrealistic to expect young men and women on the > > whole not to fornicate. > > > What the hell are you talking about? I'm all for fornication! =o) My > comment was that concerning (open, violent) _aggression_ a lot of people > in civilized countries are rather close to "celibacy". I went back to the ED in question and if I read correctly my sentence was in response to something else and not the one quoted here. Regardless, my paragraph was not a paradigm of clarity, so I'll take another stab at it: I thought that Ingo had agreed that Aggression was an instinct and sought to make my point using the sex instinct that it would, in the way of ALL instincts, express itself. I keep reverting to the sex instinct example because it is one that virtually everyone seems to understand. If Ingo made a comment limiting his point to "open, violent aggression" I confess I missed it. As I understand the term, and as I have been using it, Aggression is not limited to violence. As for the "celibacy" of "civilized countries", I'm not sure I agree. The discharge of aggression is often simply delegated; to police, to armed forces, etc. > > To prevent genetic inbreeding, tribes must interbreed. This can be done > > by war or in peace. In many areas of North America this was accomplished > > peacefully on the whole. Before the white man came, the Iroquois > > Confederacy, from which Ben Franklin got the idea for American Federalism, > > allowed a vast nation of tribes to get along in peace. It was as the white > > man pushed the Amerindians westward that the political stability that > > existed began to disintegrate. > > > Thank you, you have just established that aggression has been very tightly > controlled even in those "primitive" societies. So they showed their > social smarts by _not_ caving each others skulls in. Right! Nice going, > couldn't have done it better... ;-) Again, Aggression is not limited to violence-- with an appreciation of this point, perhaps our seeming disagreement lessens? I'm not saying Aggression should loosed because it is natural. I'm saying it can not be denied so it should be put to healthy and constructive use. For example, if it is anchored in martial arts, and the FMA are profoundly ideal in this regard, it is not only discharge, but it also effectively prepares one for when it is genuinely needed- and it will be needed by those least capable of it. > > But ultimately, we are in agreement. I too don't really want to scalp > > anyone. But I do believe that the primal energies within us should be > > celebrated and not denied or repressed. > > > Primal energies... That's the real problem, you like swinging your stick > (just as I do) and your intellect is trying hard to find some > justification for the fact that you enjoy a bit of controlled violence. > There is none, just accept that you are a social retard, albeit a harmless > one, and lead a happy life... ;-) And you too. Woof, Crafty ------------------------------ From: Lonnie Pollard Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:31:36 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Elizibethton, Tenn., Garimot Seminar Postponed Due to an illness in the Libertucci family, the Garimot seminar must be postponed until sometime this summer. Sorry for this coming last moment. Our heart felt wishes to the Libertucci family for a speedy recovery. Lonnie ------------------------------ From: "mango@uci.edu" Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 00:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Jedi and Siniwali Phantom Menace was great!. The sword techniques were amazing.. in regards to Jedi Escrima... you would end up cutting yourself doing Siniwali Manny Manuel T. Gonzales | "Toshokan wa onnanohito wo miru tokoro desu." mango@uci.edu | - Anonymous Japanese Student www.gsm.uci.edu/~mango | ------------------------------ From: tenrec Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 10:21:42 +0100 Subject: eskrima: Vietnam, England, Britain, n stuff Brian wrote: >It is also not accurate to always use the name English when speaking of the >British empire A clarification Q: when referring to people from England, you should use "English," but when you use British it means "England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland?" Off tangent Q: Are Lords = U.S. Senators? (Private email me on this if you can)... >While we are on the subject of history can someone tell me what on earth America >thought they were accomplishing in Vietnam. What could be more brutal and >homicidal than dropping millions of ton's of bomb's, agent orange,napalm >cluster bomb's and mine's on peasant farmer's,men,women and children? First of all, it was necessary to destroy the country in order to save it. Secondly, it was necessary to prevent communism from impacting the rest of Southeast Asia in a "domino principle" sort of way. Thirdly, inside every communist is an American struggling to be let free. >This is not a criticism of vet's in general as these poor soul's have my greatest >sympathy after being drafted into a homicidal war by an insane government. Glad to hear it...but 'splain somethin' to me boyo: what are the English trying to accomplish in Northern Ireland? >BTW do you realise that people in England are getting totally pissed off with >the bad guy's on ludicrous American movies always being English. Ja, you noticed that too...I think it began with Disney's version of The Jungle Book" cartoon where they used George Sanders as Khan, the evil tiger...I have two theories: one is that perhaps Americans like the villains to SOUND cultured, and English accents are somehow associated with that. The other is that English accents also sound kind of fruity, so this triggers a subliminal homophobic message within the average male (16-34) viewer: if the villain sounds English, he must be gay...if he is gay, he must be evil (and can therefore justfiably be destroyed by the guy with the normal accent)...comments, anyone? >Sorry for the rant.But I had to answer. Quite alright...I think your accent sounds cultured... tenrec tenrec@avcorner.com /* Why do the English call each other "governor?" */ ------------------------------ From: tenrec Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 10:24:49 +0100 Subject: eskrima: And they say Pinoys are title-conscious... Doggie Denny wrote: >Although I have >seen contrary writings, it is my understanding that scalping was >originated >by the white man as a form of proof before paying a bounty on killing of >Amerindians. I believe the British (is that the correct term Mr. Brian) taught the Native Americans his little trick around the time of the French and Indian Wars, as proof of a kill...perhaps similar to the cutting of ears during the Vietnam era... He also barked out: >I believe its called the antecubital fosse (spelling probably wrong) Great...now we got guys haggling over fosse... Lakan Dalawa Modern Arnis Tye W. Botting wrote: >Dans are used by either of two classes of people, IMNSHO - those who > are too lazy to find out more about the art, IMHO, this is harsh Mr. Bottling...you might find OLDTIMERS, in the Philippines, calling ranks "dans" because: 1. it was simply imported from the Japanese (directly), and not originally part of FMA tradition anyway 2. the Filipino ranks are in Tagalog (or Tagalog-based Filipino), are are not the same in other Filipino languages (so why bother) 3. what you said "thinking that that will be more easily recognizable," which is also true because during the 60's the popularity of the JMA's hit its all-time high, and more than a few of the oldtimers were students or beginning instructors at that time; it was simply more convenient to use this term rather than the longer Fil. terms (if any)... > perhaps might sound more official to some people. No more official than master, grandmaster, lakan, "mahal na saging," "pangalawang latundan" or whatever... This has a disturbing sister notion...if Arnis instructors use english terms instead Filipino terms for techniques (strike one vs. "palo isa" or "palong bulalakaw"), does this make him/her a LAZY instructor (or Grandmaster)? Or someone who wants to sound "more official?" Furthermore, does this mean to imply that an 3rd kyu Arnisador (who consistently beats Lakan Tatlo XYZ-Arnis practitioners) is the lesser MAist because he/his style uses the Dan-kyu ranking titles? Let's face it, ranking systems are mostly BS anyway, and mainly a money-making device, right? (Trivia: Lakan Dalawa is grammatically suspect..."Pangalawang Lakan" might actually be more appropriate, don't you think? Comments?) Yours in laziness, tenrec (don't got no dans, lakans or lakatans to sell) tenrec@avcorner.com /*Ol dissem banana*/ ------------------------------ From: "Branwen Thomas" Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 11:28:21 -0230 Subject: eskrima: women's POV - killing in MA Hi All, I'm new on this list, and was planning on just lurking for a bit, but I couldn't resist jumping in....;) >Perhaps as a woman I look at it differently but I beleive hit hard and voilently and then >run like hell. I completely agree with you, Yvonne. My Sifu says the best self-defense is to run away; if I have to hit before I can do that, then I'm going to do it hard so that I CAN run away. >I feel FMA is not the best intro to Martial arts in that there really isn't a code ( meaning bushido). I'm not sure I agree with this, however. There is a long tradition of honor and respect in the FMA, as in many other systems. It is, perhaps, not as explicit or obvious as in other cultures, but based on my studies (reading and practice) I feel there is very much a code of honorable conduct, even in the context of "kill or be killed". Of course, different cultures express this in different ways. I guess it also depends on what approach a teacher takes. I train in Jeet Kune Do/Jun Fan Gung Fu and the FMA (our club is affiliated with Sifu/Guro Dan Inosanto's Academy), and joining my club was my first intro to Martial Arts. The FMA appealed to me immediatly, but as with anything else, I assume it depends on the individual. >My challenge is to get women to think about really hurting their attacker. YES. [mass generalization ahead!] Women, even today, tend to think of themselves as less able to defend themselves - everyone is taught "it's wrong to hit other people", but there is still an undercurrent in society of "it's even MORE bad for women to hit" . I found that one of the most difficult mental leaps I had to make was actually *hitting* another person, even though it's only in training. Many of the women who come to our classes find it very difficult to hit someone at first, even though they have no problem whaling on the heavy bags. I prefer kicking and sticks to punching; I think it's because many of the men I train with are bigger than me (I'm 5'1", 115lbs) and my legs and sticks extend my reach; I think that's why I really LOOOOVE the Filipino arts, ...maybe that old ten-foot-pole theory ;) Seriously though, even with training, if I was in a real attack situation, against a large attacker I still wonder if my reflexes would take over or if I would freeze. My sincere wish is to train for ever and never have to find out if it works in a real attack situation. >On an aside note, I have been attacked and defended myself [...] :( strength, sister. i hope you came out all right. Someone mentioned in another thread something about video games perhaps make you react and then think, as opposed to thinking first; it's a dilemma because if you're attacked perhaps you don't have time to think, and you've programmed your body to react to threat...ethical feedback loop -when is it right, when is it desensitization.... that's enough for my first foray on the list... cheers everyone jocelyne Roaring Girl * Purveyor Of Fine Books * Beater Of Bodhrans * Smiter Of The Wicked * * Owned By Angus, Most Elegant And Pleasing Of Cats * ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 08:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: eskrima: Vietnam, England, Britain, n stuff > > Off tangent Q: Are Lords = U.S. Senators? (Private email me on this if > you can)... > The US Senators think so... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 08:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #217 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.