From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #264 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Tues, 22 June 1999 Vol 06 : Num 264 In this issue: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #263 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #261 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #263 Re: eskrima: knife eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #263 eskrima: Knife eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeffrey Monaghan" Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 20:21:26 -0700 Subject: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #263 John, You said "Remy at the New River Academy (a top student of Herman Suwanda)" I've never heard of the guy. He is not an instructor in Mande Muda according to the official Mande Muda instructor's list. The only people in the area are my instructor Guy Chase and Shannon Vicente in SF, and Steve Hunting in San Hose. I'm not trying to be offensive I'm just curious. Suwanda lives in Walnut Creek so it is possible that he is a student of Mande Muda. Where is the school located? I would like to check it out sometime. I work/live in Oakland/SF. Jeff Monaghan "I like you, but I wouldn't want to see you working with subatomic particles" ------------------------------ From: "G. Michael Zimmer" Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:51:51 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #261 > From: "Marc Denny" > Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 11:13:46 -0700 > Subject: eskrima: seeing eye dog > .... > > > One of the men I saw > > > in this tape of whom I had heard but never seen, was one of the ones who > > > impressed me most: Ancion Bacon. Wow! > .... > > > From what I could tell, the > > > training drills were very aggressive and well grounded in a realistic > > > understanding of forward pressure-- something that IMHO is sometimes > > > lacking in the training of some. I also like the integration of the live > > > hand and in this regard was shown one technique that I wish to acknowledge > > > has been added to the DBMA repertoire. I had first experienced a taste of > > > the Balintawak left hand in a one day seminar with Bobby Taboada (who > > > appeared in the tape with GM Bacon BTW) and it was nice to actually pick up > > > > something in this regard. > > > > Marc, can you go more into what you mean by "forward pressure". Also, what > > technique did you add to your DBMA repertoire? > > As all of us no doubt already know, in fights there is a dynamic wherein > one fighter "drives" the other, even without contact or merely with weapon > to weapon contact. In contrast most drills tend to be fairly stationary > and thus devoid of this pressure-- which can result in a lack of > understanding of how to generate or respond to it in real time. What I saw > in this footage however seemed to me to have a deep understanding in this > regard. As for the technique in question it is very simple and no doubt it > should have occurred to me-- but it didn't! Its a way of using my live > hand to do a downward scoop/monekyhand/jow sao to his live hand when it > blocks my caveman punyo to his head. Those of you who train with me may > understand when I say that it fits in DBMA Attacking Block Drill 1A and 1B > when the crash arrives at corto-- the Attacking Blocks drill being > something we use to teach, among other things, forward pressure. I would suspect that the type of training you saw is what is called "corridas". This type of training is based on sensitivity. It requires an instructor to give the student techniques at close range in a controlled but unpredicatable fashion. The student has to defend. If he doesn't get the defence and counter, he might get hit with he same technique again until he has the defence and counter figured out. The instructor normally has to have the level of skill called "cuentada", the ability to counter the counter and always push the student, be ahead of the student. The student will always be playing catch-up. The student thinks he has successfully defended, only to find that there is a new problem presented. The left hand is used to control the students arms and give shots continuously. Although I have seen approximations of most of the individual control techniques in other arts, I have not seen any one art that uses so many, nor in the "corridas" fashion. This is not to say that this training method doesn't exist in other styles, only that I have never seen it apart from Balintawak. Some of the other FMA may do some of the same stuff. Would it develop in the same fashion in an art where the stick is considered a surrogate for the sword? I don't have enough exposure to know. My instructor Dr. Lopez has catalogued over 50 controlling techniques with the left hand, with some being variations on a theme. He doesn't have names for most of them. "Tapi" is often used in a general purpose way. "Push" and "pull" also figure predominantly. G.M. Ted Buot seemed to have names for some. Bobby Taboada calls some of the left hand stuff "lifting" and "clearing", but I do not know exactly what these words cover. Because of my frustration with the lack of nomenclature, I invented some in English,for the benefit of myself and students when teaching. I have several dozen terms (e.g. push, fold, shove, lift, press, swing, hook, press, drop, drag, sweep, pin, yank, pull, flip, and others). I'm not sure that I would call the scheme a success story. The clearing technique that you adopted, "downward scoop/monekyhand/jow sao to his live hand", sounds to be typical. I would call it either sweep (counter-clockwise) or hook (clockwise) or pull (to the hip) or shove (to his body). Regards, G. Michael Zimmer ------------------------------ From: river@umr.edu Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 01:01:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #263 > Unfortunately, there is little there in the way of FMA. What you might > check out though are Remy at the New River Academy (a top student of > Herman Suwanda), Claudio Franca for BJJ, and check the white pages for > John ___ last i heard, rennie left for 7 months, then he returned to say that he was permanently closing the school, and that the students developed their own club. if you are interested, e-mail me and i'll give you the web site address. not to nitpick, but rennie is no longer a student of pak herman's, they had a "falling out" (i'm not aquainted with the details) and he's no longer recognized or affiliated with mande muda. i'm not discounting his skill, merely clarifying. tim river@umr.edu ------------------------------ From: "Bert Saenen" Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 12:56:33 +0200 Subject: Re: eskrima: knife > Bill McGrath wrote: > > The whole subject of knife training is something I am constantly walking a > moral tightrope about. I feel that FMA knife work has the most practical > modern use of any aspect of FMA that we can offer to the public, yet it is > also the area that is most likely to be misused. For example, I would love > to do a video on women's self defense with a knife, but how do you keep it > out of the hands of potential rapists? How do you get this info to the > people who need it the most without it getting into the wrong hands? Any > thoughts on the subject would be greatly appreciated. > > Regards, > Tuhon Bill McGrath > I think the marketing of your video would be very important. If your're going to market it as "Brutal, devastating killer knife techniques" with lots of macho looking, full page ads in magazines to support sales, guess who will be buying your tapes... On the other hand "FMA self defence for women" or "Pekiti Tirsia: concepts and techniques" will reach - IMO - a completely different audience. If sales volumes are not your primary concern, you can also have some control over the audience you're selling to; eg. you can sell only trough (selected) MA teachers or MA clubs. This doesn't exclude your videos getting into the wrong hands but it helps avoiding it. Best regards, Bert Saenen ------------------------------ From: "David Eke" Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 18:47:49 +1000 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #263 Crafty said > Fair enough. But to this point, let's call it "bluff &puff", lets add >that when we say "champion" we are not discussing sport as we understand >the term today. As the report of one of GM Bacon's fights the other day >made clear, a crack to the head can literally open it up. I can readily >picture that as long as someone is not being disrespected that he has no >compelling urge to go out and fight all the most dangerous men around >without his being a bluff and puff kitty. I'm in 110% agreement. Anyone who has picked up a stick and trained for any length of time know how much damage can be done. Any serious fight (with a stick) with no protection is going to leave at least one person unconscious if not dead or badly injured. And yet there are people and groups who still talk about "death matches" and GM's travelling the Philippines taking on all comers. Logic, common sense and statistics should tell people that it just didn't happen like that. BTW I'm NOT saying that fighting didn't occur but that it didn't happen as regularly as some people would like you to think. ------------------------------ From: Patrick Davies Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:44:40 +0100 Subject: eskrima: Knife As a result of Bill McGraths question I noted two answers that appealed to me <> I accept this. Its logical. Perhaps the real statistics can tell us who actually commit the rapes rather than the usual stereotype. (I don't know Im asking). I suspect the majority of these will not be situations carefully premeditated. In the Uk at least the majority of stabbing are in the kitchen using kitchen utensils. (so there goes my cooking video series...grin) but the public perception is totally different. <> Ok stop here. Hey, and I honestly mean no offence, but are we on a mission here? If people don't come to your class, why assume a moral right that they should have the information available. Surely this is more a commercial reason. You make the tape as a product for people to buy serving, if not the pocket as I don't believe they can be big money spinners, but the credibility of the instructor. Having tapes on the market must surely make you appear credible to the public. Its not done because there is a moral right that people should have that information. Id have difficulty on deciding on who is a sane law abiding and decent citizen anyway, considering our role models in public life that must be hard to ascertain. Carrying on with Butch: <> yep, I do the same. No argument (please don't be patronised...im trying not to be demeaning). But I have to admit that even if they were not the full shilling then I doubt if they would adhere to the programme. I mean someone who is learning a knife feed can easily stab someone regardless of the training or not. This takes us back to old discussions on streetfighters with no martial arts training and who cant keep to a disciplined programme yet can whip the arse off the black belt round the corner. I don't believe that you can make fighters that quickly, in fact it takes a long programme of intense training. You may get a Frank Shamrock winning a championship within a year but look how he's training. To make a fighter takes a long time and if they are a screwball they wont last the pace or else you will sus them out. <> who signing the signer? You should see some of the policemen I have met! Their actions would definitely question their participation in your class. But I agree that if you make the material then you decide who gets to see it. Im just lucky I suppose that I live in the UK and don't have these dilemmas you all have across the water. Yeah we've got our idiots too. I have personal experience of having trained alongside someone who later killed a nun so I have deliberated over this before. To me it comes down to the fact that we must conduct ourselves in a way we hope other people will conduct themselves. The vast majority of people training in our classes is for recreational purposes and as instructors we should not forget that. Its meant to be fun as well! I would love to see the video on knife skills as it would lead to some neat drills which would make me a better athlete (I can only hope) and I will have a greater life from it. After that I will go home and enjoy my time with my familly. Im not going to skulk in the ghettos acting like Kurt Russel in Escape from New York...but then again I take my medication ; ) Thanks for bearing with me Pat Davies Aberdeen Martial Arts Group ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 08:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #264 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.