From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #268 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Thurs, 24 June 1999 Vol 06 : Num 268 In this issue: eskrima: Liability for Teaching? eskrima: Self-defense for women eskrima: Its not the length, its the motion eskrima: matches eskrima: Animal's Un-PC Rant eskrima: re sensitivity, Chi, Jing eskrima: Knife Training eskrima: Seminar In the Modernized Philippine Martial Arts eskrima: Any FMA in Tucson, Arizona? eskrima: Animal's post (women's self defence etc.) eskrima: . .......................................................................... Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Katz, Mary Lou" Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:05:48 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Liability for Teaching? >Question: Is >the teacher legally liable? To what standard? Absolute liability? Strict >Liability? Recklessness? Negligence? Is a showing of no felony convictions >a safe harbor? Does anyone (Mary Lou?) have any concrete knowledge of the >law of any jurisdiction in this regard? How do the teachers out there feel >about the idea of being held legally liable? Greetings! Well, I did a bit of quick WestLaw research and didn't find any cases where anyone was held civilly or criminally liable for teaching knife fighting or any other martial art in the state of California. That seems right to me -- after all, teaching martial arts is what constitutional scholars like to call "pure speech" and is thus protected under the First Amendment. One might argue that attacking people with a knife is illegal and thus teaching knife attacks is not protected, but I think that can be dealt with pretty easily by pointing out that what is taught is "self DEFENSE." It's inconceivable to me that a martial arts teacher would be either criminally or civilly liable UNLESS the teacher knows (or possible "should know") that the student plans to harm an identifiable person. (For you legal eagles out there, I'm thinking of something akin to the Tarasoff rule, whereby a mental health professional has a duty to warn the intended victim when the mental health professional's patient expresses an intent to harm a particular person). Depending on the facts of the case, you could then make a decent case for conspiracy to commit battery/murder/whatever, or (in my view) a less compelling case for a negligence standard. But absent that, I think a teacher is in the clear. So, um, to get back to your question, Marc -- nope, I don't have a bit of concrete knowledge! And re: your other question, as a MA teacher myself (of little kids, but still...) I would feel LOUSY about the idea of being held legally liable. Duh! Regards, Mary Lou (yep, that's a new last name -- got married on May 23 and couldn't be happier!) "Anything worth doing is worth doing to excess." ------------------------------ From: "Katz, Mary Lou" Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:16:09 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Self-defense for women Hello again -- Y'all have started some interesting threads while I was off on my honeymoon! I would love to agree with Yvonne and the others who say "I refuse to be afraid -- I'll walk where I want to, when I want to," but I just can't, at least not wholeheartedly. I kind of have to agree with those who point out that there are bad guys out there who don't respect my political views on the matter and would be only too happy to attack me no matter how high I hold my head. I guess it's all a matter of degree. I'll go places where many women might not go, but I'm not going to take any unnecessary chances. To me, it's more important that I live long enough to finish raising my son than that I exercise every single bit of freedom of movement that I might think is desirable. That having been said, I don't think there's any question that a confident physical demeanor is going to make me a less attractive target, and that fighting, screaming, etc. are better (in most cases) than NOT fighting, screaming, etc. Which reminds me of something my first MA teacher always told us: "NEVER get in the car with the bad guy, because he's going to take you someplace and do very very very bad things to you. Better to try and run away and risk getting shot right there on the sidewalk than to have your body dumped later in Angeles National Forest." Words to live by, in my opinion. Anyone disagree? Regards, Mary Lou "Anything worth doing is worth doing to excess." ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:20:46 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Its not the length, its the motion A Howl etc: Drew wrote: "Arlan said: >If both fighters are good, it could be a long fight >until someone prevails, if at all. Interesting. Crafty related to the list that Tuhon Gaje mentioned "if anyone lasts more than a few seconds with me, he is very good." Others on the list can relate similar statements from reputable sources concerning fighters such as Cacoy Canete, Angel Cabelas, Dizon, Bacon, Villabraille, etc. Their fights are over in seconds. What's the difference??" END QUOTE No doubt Arlan can take care of himself just fine, but since I was mentioned, herewith a couple of quick thoughts: 1) Plenty of Villabraille's fights lasted many rounds-- certainly the telling of his famous fight with the "Moro" (Attention sensitive people: the choice of word is as it was told to me-- no derogatory intent meant) relates how he survived many blows to his arms in the early rounds. 2) When skill is uneven, I would suggest that fights can be real brief. Even something perceived as a lengthy fight, e.g. BJJ, can be over real quick when the skill is uneven. But Arlan's comment I understand to refer to a match of similar levels. 3) The choice of weapons could have a lot to do with it too. Grand Tuhon Gaje was referring to a fight with shaped, hardwood olisis. Arlan is referring to substantial rattan. Woof, Crafty ------------------------------ From: "arlan and angel sanford" Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:36:47 -0600 Subject: eskrima: matches - ---->If both fighters are good, it could be a long fight >until someone prevails, if at all. >Interesting. Crafty related to the list that Tuhon Gaje mentioned "if >anyone lasts more thatn a few seconds with me, he is very good." >Others on the list can relate similar statements from reputable sources >concerning fighters such as Cacoy Canete, Angel Cabelas, Dizon, Bacon, >Villabraille, etc. Their fights are over in seconds. What's the >difference?? >Drew I would think the quality of the opponents would come into play. I'm sure in many of those fights, there was overwhelming superiority of fighting skill. Has anyone heard of fights that might have gone on longer? Perhaps between two more renowned, equals? It would be interesting to hear of them. I wonder how it would relate to Vale Tudo fights between equals that last hours. I understand having a weapon changes things. When I was in Thailand, I heard that many of the Krabi-Krabong fights were won only after extended fighting when one warrior was wore out, whoever had the most stamina seem to have the edge. Some of the fights lasted 30 minutes or more. (this is just hearsay, although I hear that the Thai military is trying to set up full contact K-K fights again and this could be a chance to see if it happens that way). I, personally, would prefer a short fight, but do you always get a choice? Arlan ------------------------------ From: kirk_righter@peoplesoft.com Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 00:14:12 GMT Subject: eskrima: Animal's Un-PC Rant Excellent thesis on the average woman's lack of real-world understanding of violence. Couldn't have said it better myself. I think that a lot of women are lead to believe that all it takes is a quick self-defense course and they're ready for the big leagues. And while we're all supposed to believe that women can do absolutely anything that men can do (hey, it sells shoes) it's very dangerous for any woman to assume this is true when it comes to a street fight. As un-PC as it may seem to say so, it's really just a simple matter of physics and anatomy. Men are larger, stronger, have heavier bone structures, etc., etc. I've sparred men and I've sparred women, and I know the difference. To teach a woman that she can go out there and hang with the boys is just short of criminal. I believe I have a unique understanding of this that most folks don't, having been on both sides of the fence as far as size and strength goes. Until I was in my early 30's, I was 6 ft tall and weighed in at a hefty 135 lbs. After I quit smoking, I began to gain weight, and, having been a lifelong Bruce Lee fan, decided to channel my energies into M.A. After getting my butt kicked on the mat consistently by 16 year olds, I started lifting weights and jumping rope. After 3 years I weighed 185 lbs and was kicking some serious butt myself. So, I know what it's like to have to walk away, and what it's like to be able to stare back and say 'Go ahead and swing, fool. Hope your insurance is paid up'. I'm the same person I always was as far as machismo/stones/whatever, I just carry it around in a larger container. And I still take the long way around when I can, because it's all about improving your odds, not about how tough you are. Animal's rant is definitely a keeper. Kirk Righter ------------------------------ From: JYCHOW@au.oracle.com Date: 24 Jun 99 10:54:01 +1000 Subject: eskrima: re sensitivity, Chi, Jing >"neija list".......... >The general viewpoint of this >group of people is that a lot, maybe most, Tai Chi taught outside >of mainland China has not been transmitted very well >("garbage" is one of the terms used). In particular, they claim that >the essential differentiating factor, "Peng Jing", is missing from >much of the Tai Chi Chuan outside of China. Without this, the claim >is made that you are only doing choreography, not an internal art, >and not much of a martial art. > How ironical! That is exactly what overseas Chinese practitioners of Tai Chi Chuan think of their counterparts in China. I think there is strong disagreement on both parties. And this is complicated by certain masters elaborating certain 'Jings' in the West, forming, perhaps, a 3rd category which the first two categories do not seem to agree with either. However, these are squables and politics, and the winner will be the one who has the best propaganda and promotion machine........... What I can say definitely without insulting either party is that the ones in China practiced very hard (China is still a tough place) and continued to this day. Those outside (eg. South East Asia, Hong Kong, Taiwan) had a very good advantage in the beginning but did not make use of their advantage to practice hard. This is the practice side. Hint: compare a student learning under a mediocre master but who practises extremely hard, with a student learning under a great master, but barely practising. Both are good and bad situation. I have my own private views on the theory side, but they may not be palatable to many people, so I would rather abstain from commenting. Too many practitioners in the West are too vocal in discussing Jings, and criticising= other masters, without having truly and accurately understood the subject matter and influencing too many other practitioners who read their theories. I, myself, still haven't understood Jings well. >"Peng Jing", is missing from much of the Tai Chi Chuan outside of China > This is very odd, as of all the masters I have encountered "outside" of China, everyone expounds "Peng Jing" and all sorts of Jings. I found the opposite is generally true of those who came out of China. I think we have to distinguish between a political quote and reality. eg. a master from SF claimed that old Chinese masters will attribute the fact that they can not be pushed over to their 'Qi power'. Well, I have never hear a Chinese master say that!!!!! This is what I mean by a 'political quote'. "Did it really happen?????" By the way, I thought the NeiJia list is composed of people outside of China? I know there is still a Chinese Hao/Li style master in the Toronto or so region. My brother-in-law has met him. You may perhaps get some pointers what a Chinese master really say what Qi is instead of getting it second quoted what he said. I don't know of any other old master in USA/Canada (Jason Tsou of Tai Chi Farm, NY passed recently) as I live on the opposite side of the globe. Cheers! John Chow ------------------------------ From: "big Joe A." Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:04:49 PDT Subject: eskrima: Knife Training Guro Crafty, I would suggest reading the book "On Killing : The Psychological Effects of Learning to Kill on the Battlefield and In Society." It is a great book on the psychological effects of and resistance to having to kill in an actual life and death situation. According to this book killing at blade range is extremely hard for us to do. It goes into great detail about how the closer you are to the person you are killing the harder it is to do because it becomes more personal. You loose the the protection of anonimity. You have to watch as your opponent draws his last breath knowing it was you who killed him. I can't really explain it that well. But as far as our knife training enabling some to kill easier the answer is yes. It is also explained in the book. We are conditioning a response to a stimuli so that it becomes a reaction. There is no concious thought till afterwards. There are many examples of this in the book of soldiers saying they just fired without thinking,it was reflexive. Afterwards is when the guilt kicks in. Just my two cents worth. Your friend in training, Big Joe _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "big Joe A." Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:12:36 PDT Subject: eskrima: Seminar In the Modernized Philippine Martial Arts Modernized Philippine Martial Arts The Fighting Stick We are pleased to announce a seminar in the Modernized Philippine Martial Arts. It will be conducted at Solari Community Center in San Jose, California. Prof. Norlito B. Soriano formerly of the Samahang Ng Arnis Ng Pilipinas (Brotherhood of Arnis of the Philippines, circa 1960’s) will be teaching this seminar. He is seventh generation in the Filipino Martial Arts as well as the head and founder of the Modernized Philippine Martial Arts. This seminar will cover the basics of the Visayas style of stick fighting. Fee: $80.00 for the full seminar / $20.00 for spectators Location: Solari Community Center 3590 Cas Drive San Jose, Ca 95111 Date: July 10, 1999 Time: Registration at 9:30A.M. Seminar begins at 10:00 A.M. and ends at 5:00P.M. Styles Covered: The seminar will cover the basics of the Visayas style of stick fighting. This style is a paired weapon style in the Espada y Daga lengths (i.e. one long and one short stick) which allows for greater flexibility in weapon range. This Modernized style was developed and refined by Prof. Soriano to be combat effective. Gear: You will need to bring a cup (if male), loose comfortable clothing, and a water bottle. All sticks will be provided. No hardwoods allowed. Absolutely no cameras allowed!!!! For more information or to reserve your place e-mail Joe Artigas at Ninjoe@hotmail.com or call him at (408) 266-2931. If the machine picks up leave a message and he will return your call as soon as possible. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Bakbakan@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:46:58 EDT Subject: eskrima: Any FMA in Tucson, Arizona? Interested in hosting a seminar? Bakbakan International's Fighting Arts are featured in Mark Wiley's "Filipino Martial Culture", Masters of Arnis,Kali & Eskrima, Secrets of Arnis, Journal of Asian Martial Arts and Martial Arts Legends-"Exotic Martial Arts of Southeast Asia" as well as others... Master Reynaldo Galang is one of the Senior students under legendary Grandmaster Antonio "Tatang" Ilustrisimo. He will be in Tucson at the end of August, and is offering interested parties a first hand glimpse of Bakbakan Kali Ilustrisimo. The curriculum includes but is not limited to Siniwali(Double-Stick), Solo Baston, Tulisan(Knife-Fighting) and "Classic" Espada Y Daga(Sword & Dagger). For more details please contact me direct at: bakbakan@aol.com Yours in the Arts, John G. Jacobo BAKBAKAN North American Director ------------------------------ From: Michael Koblic Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:26:29 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Animal's post (women's self defence etc.) >I am constantly amazed at some women's stubborn refusal to beleive that >there are both men and situations out there that they cannot handle. Maybe >intellectually they understand that there are people out there who they can't >hope to win against, but in practice they regularly do things that I, a >professional badass, would leave skid marks to avoid. Firstly, what a great post overall! Secondly, thanks for the honesty. I, too, would walk around the park rather than through it,particularly knowing that there is a bunch of bikers having a party in there. I see it as a no win situation: either I win and a) do time for assault or b) the victim's mates will get me next time, or I lose... In either case the question by the judge, spouse, doctor or undertaker will be "what the f..k was he doing walking through that park?" Again, I congratulate Animal for acknowledging reality. Hope your family is recovering from the illness. Mike Koblic, Quesnel BC ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #268 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan System of Eskrima, Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.