From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #321 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Wed, 4 Aug 1999 Vol 06 : Num 321 In this issue: eskrima: Mexico eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #320 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #319 eskrima: One more thing.... eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #320 [none] eskrima: Re: Death Matches eskrima: Re: Rocky'post eskrima: Koinonia eskrima: Other uses of the Datu title eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 21:29:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Mexico > Baratero, o Arte de Manejar la Navaja," published in Madrid in 1849. Today, > the best place to see Mexican blade work is in the outskirts of Puerto > Vallarta, where there are still experts in navajas, machetes, and latigos. Is the place near PV easy to find or is it underground? Ray Terry rterry@best.com ------------------------------ From: Ludwig Schwarz Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:02:03 +0200 (MEST) Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #320 > Many manuals were written > on its use in combat, the best known of these being the 50+ page "Manual del > Baratero, o Arte de Manejar la Navaja," published in Madrid in 1849. I've heard of that manual too, but was not able to find it, even having spent a few years in Spain. Has anyone on this list actually SEEN this book? Is it possible to get a copy somewhere? Has it been reprinted? Ludwig Schwarz Berlin, Germany - -- Sent through Global Message Exchange - http://www.gmx.net ------------------------------ From: Filovir1@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 03:50:36 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #319 In the re:Datu responses several people made references to Kelly Worden and the fact that he had the title Datu. They also mentioned he was given this title by Remy Presas of the Modern Arnis System. I was wondering if anyone else knows anything about his martial background. Who else did her learn from? What ranks does he hold? Are his current methods (Comtech) an amalgamation of his previous studies? Thanks, Tim ------------------------------ From: "Eric Taimanglo" Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 00:26:52 -0700 Subject: eskrima: One more thing.... I e-mailed this perspective to some of you, but I figured I'd post it here as well. Do you see Japanese Martial Artists with the title of "Shogun" or "Daimyo"? How many Chinese Martial Artists do you see with the title, "Shaolin Abbot"? Do you know of any instructors of said styles who would confer such a title to a pupil, even a outstanding one? Think about it. I don't know who else is steamed at me for bringing this issue up, but I leave you with this...I'm sleeping well tonight. Megarajah Taimanglo HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com ------------------------------ From: "David Eke" Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 17:57:35 +1000 Subject: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #320 >>Most of the ones I know who have the title Datu wear it with great >>respect and admiration for the history and culture of the art. Still, it clearly shows a lack of true understanding of the history and culture of The Philippines. >>Also,all the datu's I know were betowed the title by Grandmasters of the >>FMA's.I know of no one who has "assumed" the title. GM is a title which can get "assumed" pretty easily too. >>Quite frankly the art would have died long ago if not for the interest of >>the westerner/whiteman. This is a pretty arrogant statement. The Spanish over 300 years tried to destroy Filipino Martial Arts. They tried banning it, but they only forced it underground. Family systems were based down thru generations. It's only been since the early 70's that "westerners" have been in the least intersted in the FMA. Today in the Philippines escrima is part of the curriculum for students studying Physical Education. IMO the FMA in The Philippines has always been alive and well you just needed to know where to look. >>Seeing as most conflicts in the Filipines are now expressed just like >>everywhere else in the world with the power of firearms. This is a bit of a generalization isn't it? After having lived there I say knives were probably just as popular. Firearms are illegal (unless youre a cop, security or in the military )and it's much easier to get away with carrying a knife. >>If they herd cattle in the Filipines then there must be a few >>somewhere.Just like Australia. No cowboys in Australia mate!! the're called Jackaroos. Calling a "jackaroo" a "cowboy" shows a lack of understanding of Australian bush culture which is like calling someone "Datu" when they don't deserve it. David ------------------------------ From: Luis Pellicer Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 15:54:22 +0800 Subject: [none] With all due respect to the "moro chieftans",the title Datu is mearly a means to an end. It mearly conveys a position of leadership within the framework of a certain martial art and some of the culture that belongs to that art. Most of the FMA practictioners that I know are "westerners" as you put it. Most of the ones I know who have the title Datu wear it with great respect and admiration for the history and culture of the art.Also,all the datu's I know were betowed the title by Grandmasters of the FMA's.I know of no one who has "assumed" the title. Evidentily the GM's didnt have any problem with granting the title to a "westerner". Are you using that word "westener" as a substitute for "whiteman"? Quite frankly the art would have died long ago if not for the interest of the westerner/whiteman.Seeing as most conflicts in the Filipines are now expressed just like everywhere else in the world with the power of firearms. I'm really not trying to inflame racial hate or biggotry,im just using a little bluntness to make a point. Its kinda like saying that there cant really be any Filipino cowboys.If they herd cattle in the Filipines then there must be a few somewhere.Just like Australia. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually, it is of no significant relevance what people call themselves, in that I agree with you. When 'Westerners' is used (I use it myself) it has nothing to do with skin color but of mindset and culture.(I my self am 6'2, 200+ pounds with light hair and blue eyes. A real white man of spanish descent for sure, BUT 5th. generation born, raised and living in the Philippines.) And in that, we can see obvious irregularities which people not from our culture cannot. Now should we change the word 'Datu' for 'Sir Knight' (which is an appoximate equivalent) we can see how SILLY this sounds to those from the country of origin. (After all, this is the FMA) Then people would not snicker if we called combatants who fight under the Queenburry Rules 'Sir So and So' Given some of the titles heard ,we would have 'Sir Knight Shannon Briggs' 'His Highness the Duke Mike Tyson' and 'His Majesty King Evander Hollyfield'. Thier perfect right, but not many people would take it seriously. Nor can a great British boxing coach give GENUINE peerage to anyone, no matter how good they respectively are. In no way should this discussion be a jab at the abilities of those with the titles, without a doubt I am sure that they all are excellent exponents of the FMA, but a title of nobility IS a title of nobility. Unless born with the title, only the Philippine government can bestow the rank of 'Datu'. (Though the royal Mindanao line may have another opinion on this, I'll ask one of them.) Now, comes the fact that the titles were given by Filipino GM's. OK, again that is thier right to do, unofficially of course. Then state that it is a rank, nothing more. Realistically, is it anymore than a Marketing ploy to differentiate thier art from others? After all, when Guro, Master, Grand Master etc. become old hat, we need Datu, Sultan and Raja to add a little spice in the commercial mix. Personally, I would be embarrassed to call my self Dr. Pellicer if it was an honorary doctorate bestowed for whatever reason, specially if I was among members of the REAL academe. Have pride in the Art and the cultural heritage behind it, and what it means to you as an individual, not a title. Sorry the Art is very well and alive in the Philippines. Unfortunately, a line in Dan Inosanto's book on the FMA which stated that the US was the new home of Kali, may have been taken too seriously by some people. Pretty soon something like that gets blown out of proportion and VIOLA!! No more good Kali men in the Philippines. False! Now that a FMAer can make more money out there teaching exclusively, that is true. This does not mean, however that out here we are dry of talent and interest. If anything, the other side of the coin will say that best ARE STILL HERE as they maintained thier patrons and continued testing thier art. (Ben Lema and Tony Diego are two heads of systems that come immediately to mind. Lema in Leskas and Diego in Kali Illustrisimo. This doesn't include thier very capable juniors or student in the Arts.) This does not include however, the Kali men still living out in the mountains, using thier skills to SURVIVE. Life and death is kind of different from showing up in a magazine, despite 16 years in the FMA and 26 in unarmed combat, I wouldn't willingly test these guys. No biggotry should be taken by your comments, it's just another point of view, like mine. The interest in the FMA's in the US is great, for as long as it stays true to it's roots. I wouldn't want to see it commercialized and dilluted like so many other Arts have been. LSPIII ------------------------------ From: "Steven Drape" Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 06:57:24 PDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Death Matches >How, exactly did death matches begin. I have four specific questions >regarding this issue: >1) Were death matches planned (i.e., did 2 fighters challenge each other >with the understood goal being to kill the other fighter)? >2) Were death matches called such because of the fight's outcome (i.e., was >the name "death match" then given to the fight if one person was >incidentally killed in a confrontation)? >3) Was death simply an understood possible outcome of a confrontation >(i.e., >was the goal simply to go for an open target, fatal or not)? >4) Were death matches issues of self-defense (i.e., were they called "death >matches" only because a fighter was assaulted and defended himself or >herself with deadly force)? The term "Death Match" is definitely a misnomer. While some fighters might have made the fight with the idea of killing their opponent, most did not. A man might just knock on your door and ask to "play", which meant that he wanted to test your skill. The fight might be held right then and there, with no audience or witnesses, and the likely result was that one or the other would be bloodied or knocked out and that would be the end of it. A second scenario would be the big-time challenge, where well-known fighters would make a public challenge and the match would be arranged. Liability waivers would be signed and local officials and maybe even police would be present. The match would then generally have the same outcome as a private one- blood or a knockout. Deaths did, and still do, occur but the matches were very rarely set up to be to the death. Steve ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Steven Drape" Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 07:30:13 PDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Rocky'post >From: Rocky Pasiwk >Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 23:59:04 -0700 >Subject: eskrima: Things to ponder!! > >Questions that need to be directed towards those who would regulate us ........ >You ever see a drive by caining, its not a pretty site!!! My goal is 5 >mil before I am 35, and this just might put me their. Hey maybe I too >could buy the presidency for one of my kids through the use of ill >gotten bootie, hey this is America, its possible. > >Rocky Pasiwk As an English teacher, your posts drive me crazy, but I have to say that I almost always agree with what you have to say. Even if I don't agree, at least you're fun to read!! Steve ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Steven Dowd" Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 07:27:38 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Koinonia Greetings to all, actually the Koinonia site is at: http://www.wizard.com/~kyud/koinonia.html There you have the companies books and video's a section on Leo Fongs style of Wei Kuen Do and about the Total Approach Organization that offers seminars with Leo. Also so he will be offering a video with one of Angel Cabales students with clips of Angel Cabales also doing some techniques from the old days. ------------------------------ From: pjm@buffnet.net Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 11:43:29 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Other uses of the Datu title I can not confirm a number of the historical uses of the title of Datu, but here are a few I have run accross: SciFi: R2Datu Shakespearean Tagedy: Et to Datu Marching Cadence: Hup two Datu Units of Euclidean geometry: Datone Datu Dathree technical question: What does datu? Business software: Is that a spread sheet or a datu proccessor? ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #321 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.