From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #338 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sun, 15 Aug 1999 Vol 06 : Num 338 In this issue: eskrima: Titles eskrima: A dog by any other name eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #336 eskrima: korambit source eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #330 eskrima: Re: Books and Weapons eskrima: Re: Doce Pares eskrima: titles, ranks, and rank titles eskrima: titles, ranks, and rank titles (pheww!) Re: eskrima: titles, ranks, and rank titles eskrima: Capoeira eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 12:17:19 EDT Subject: eskrima: Titles In a message dated 99-08-14 11:11:37 EDT, you write: << The grandest title I had ever heard until the 80's was "Mr". - > "Sensei", > "Sifu" and for one individual that developed Aikido --"O'Sensei". The Kung Fu TV show was in the early 70s. Grandmaster and Master were in common usage then (the early 70s). Shihan, Judan, KwanJangNim, etc, have been around for many decades. Yes?? >> One must remember that the literal translation of many of the Korean and Japanese titles is not "master" or "grandmaster" etc. Sensei is one who comes before, and is used for all teachers, not just martial arts. When I taught English at a Jr. High School in Japan, all of the students called me sensei or teacher. Just like they called all of the other teachers in school. Shihan means "Example" The O'sensei for Morihei Ueshiba, founder of Aikido, is just an honorific form of sensei. It would be like Great teacher, and the O is put in front of other things in Japanese to distinguish or honor it. For Korea, Kwanjangnim means ower of the school. When I lived in Korea, I called the owner of my Hapkido school Kwanjangnim. But - the owner of the English school I taught at was also called Kwanjangnim by the Korean teachers who worked there, and it had nothing to do with martial arts. The funny thing is when Americans have taken these titles and misuse them. Mr. Sensei? Speak English or speak Japanese, don't mix them incorrectly. I know the person who wrote that was just using that as an example that he had heard, and the sad thing is that it does go on. Another thing to remember is that titles are more important in Japan and Korea. Just as age is to be respected. In both languages, there are forms of speech that are more polite, and forms that are more formal. You do not use the less formal speech when addressing a senior, be it rank or age. You can use the less formal speech with a friend who is at the same level, or when speaking to someone younger or less rank. Master and Grandmaster, etc are English words and are now accepted throughout the martial arts. I agree it has gotten carried away. Just thought I'd clarify some of the Japanese and Korean terms. Yours in Training, Alain Burrese ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 10:31:39 -0700 Subject: eskrima: A dog by any other name A Howl of Greeting to All: Dave Fulton wrote: > I would agree with Crafty Dog here, and offer another group as an example of > this .... The Dog Brothers. They don't use titles, that I'm aware of. "Top > Dog", "Crafty Dog", etc are nick names, not titles. > > So, why is it that some groups don't need titles? It's because when you go > all out, everyone knows where they stand at then end of the day, and so the > hierarchy is established. Claiming titles like: Grandmaster, Datu, etc is > pretty moot if you just got your butt whooped! and Ray Terry commented: > Aren't Associate Instructor or Head Instructor titles? I think our Dog > friends have titles similar to those, yes? Well, I'd say both Dave and Ray are right. Dave is right that the respect is established by deed and character, not paper, and Ray is right that we have titles. Actually we have LOTS of titles! In the Dog Brothers Tribe they are: "Dog": One is a member of the tribe. Character, and attitude matter at least as much as fighting level. Next is" Candidate Dog Brother": One has started fighting at a level of a Dog Brother. When one maintains this level for three Gatherings, then one achieves the grand, exalted status of "Dog Brother": Then there is the "Council of Elders", which consists of the three Co-founders: Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny--The Guiding Force Eric "Top Dog" Knaus-- The Fighting Force Arlan "Salty Dog" Sanford-- The Silent Force If I may make an observation here. Many martial art systems are pyramid-like in their structure. Those higher order those lower. Ours is more like a tribe of American Indians (or for that matter, a pack of dogs). Not too many "orders" are given. And, as noted in "The Tao of the Dog" piece on our website (on the page about DBMA and DBMAAssociation): BEGIN QUOTE: "Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication." (Jeff McMahon) I think that's right. The dog is the interface of man and the wolf and we can connect so strongly because our dynamics are so similar. Even as we change the wolf into the dog to suit our purposes, we still need its glimmer as wolf. , , , I know the Dog Brothers have a good reputation for airing it out pretty well, but we know what we do is well short of combat, death matches of yore in the Philippines, or a policeman going into an abandoned building after a bad guy. It is important not to take oneself too seriously, and I like the way the quote captures a certain perspective on the Dog Brothers. We are not wolves, we are but human dogs. END QUOTE Similarly, our titles have an "unserious" quality to them. Perhaps different values underlie them in comparison to some, but they are titles nevertheless. However, the examples of titles Ray uses come not from the Dog Brothers, but from Dog Brothers Martial Arts (DBMA). As for Dog Brothers Martial Arts, here's how the titles go: The Founder and Head Teacher is yours truly. I confess to enjoying it when someone calls me "Guro", but I also know that many Americans feel uncomfortable in using a title to anyone, especially another American. Even the use of Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms. is rather rare these days. I grew up calling my aunts and uncles "Aunt Jane" or "Uncle John", but my nephews and nieces call me "Marc", my brother having missed my hints in this matter. I would feel silly insisting and so don't. The teaching titles distinguish between those who are members of the tribe and those who are not. A member of the tribe gets to use a Filipino title; for example an "Apprentice" is a "Lakan Guro". Tangent: I remember being impressed for years that Eric was a not just a "Guro" in PT, but a "Lakan Guro" and having a chuckle at myself when I, and he, discovered years later what it meant. Nevertheless, when it comes to understanding and skill in stickfighting, you could go further and do worse. (By the way Grand Tuhon Gaje promoted Eric to "Guro" while I was in the Philippines last year.) Anyway, for those who prefer to operate with English titles, a member of the tribe is a "teacher", an non-member is an "instructor". One begins as a Personal Trainer, then Lakan Guro/Apprentice Teacher/Apprentice Instructor for various levels, then Senior Lakan Guro/etc for various levels, then Guro, etc. Woof, Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny Co-founder and Guiding Force of the Dog Brothers Founder and Head Teacher of Dog Brothers Martial Arts Guro or Marc to my students Guro in Inosanto Blend Sr. Apprentice in Lameco Private student of Guro Inosanto, PG Edgar Sulite, and recently of Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje BJJ training partner to Dan Inosanto 2X Senior Blue Belt BJJ Pan American Mid-Heavyweight Gold Medallist Purple Belt: Machado Jiu Jitsu Morro the Akita's human dad Adam, Jasa, Eric, and Shayna's uncle Cindy's husband Conrad's father ;-) ------------------------------ From: Kilap@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 15:53:53 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #336 << Suro is short for Mangisusuro. >> And Mangisusuro would mean? Thanks, Travis ------------------------------ From: Gints Klimanis Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 16:08:20 -0700 Subject: eskrima: korambit source Hi ! I was combing the digest archives and found a fellow asking for a korambit source. I'm a knife novice, but I enjoy my Kris Cutley korambit. ------------------------------ From: SReiter000@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 23:04:31 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #330 tuhon bill writes: << While in Hawaii earlier this year, I found some boar's tusk necklaces in a tourist shop that I later turned into keychains. Several students have asked where they could get them. The necklaces had a tag that said they were made in the Philippines. Do any of the Filipinos on the list know of a source for boar's tusks? i got tasks from south africa - boars are concidered rodents there and every tourist shop sells various boar task trinkets - it was a real pain in the ... becuase the us has customs laws about inporting animal parts - it a dease thing - they must be specially dipped ect. - it's really not woth the hassel - - i was plannng on making a cane handle out of mine but do to their shape it didnt work out -- i am interested in what you did with yours - i first thought they would make a nice impale weapon, but upon reciept they didnt seem sharp enough to do a good job - could you explain the how's and why's of the key chain idea -- thanks ------------------------------ From: Jivita@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 02:25:21 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Books and Weapons FYI folks. Ebay's at it again. http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=rcw0316@webtv .com Included in this fellow's list are a book on Kuntaw, 4 or 5 Barongs, a Kris, a Head Axe and other assorted books and weapons. By the way. I'm not doing the selling and I'm all bought out. I thought this a nice FYI for those who don't have as much access to this sort of stuff as we west coast folks. Jim Lowe jivta@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Jivita@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 02:48:42 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Doce Pares Hello all, While I'm plugging stuff, I thought I might as well plug the Bulletin Board on DocePares.com. Let's get some chatter going folks. http://www.docepares.com/webboard.htm Jim Lowe Berkeley Eskrima Club http://members.aol.com/ekaliarnis/BEC.html ------------------------------ From: Drew Zimba Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 07:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: titles, ranks, and rank titles In the thread of who has titles, and are they necessary, it seems to me that there is a semantics issue. When someone mentions "title", does it mean the same thing as "rank". Ray brought up the point of the Dog Brothers having titles like "Head Instructor" or some Japanese arts having titles like "shihan". In my mind, these are ranks, not titles. The difference being this: A title is a show of respect for those in the system, a rank is a means of showing your seiority to someone outside the system or to someone from the system but outside your training group. Nicknames or monikers within a group are a third category, which a very perceptive list member reckoned come out of groups whose heirarchy is obvious from their group dynamics. For instance, someone could call themself "Snarly Dog" and profess to teach DBMA, but unless they can say "I'm 'Snarly Dog', an Affiliate Instructor of DBMA, just check with Marc Denny", would you pay the guy $$$ grande if DBMA was what you wanted to learn? Drew _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Drew Zimba Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 07:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: titles, ranks, and rank titles (pheww!) In the thread of who has titles, and are they necessary, it seems to me that there is a semantics issue. When someone mentions "title", does it mean the same thing as "rank". Ray brought up the point of the Dog Brothers having titles like "Head Instructor" or some Japanese arts having titles like "shihan". In my mind, these are ranks, not titles. The difference being this: A title is a show of respect for those in the system, a rank is a means of showing your seiority to someone outside the system or to someone from the system but outside your training group. Nicknames or monikers within a group are a third category, which a very perceptive list member reckoned come out of groups whose heirarchy is obvious from their group dynamics. For instance, someone could call themself "Snarly Dog" and profess to teach DBMA, but unless they can say "I'm 'Snarly Dog', an Affiliate Instructor of DBMA, just check with Marc Denny", would you pay the guy $$$ grande if DBMA was what you wanted to learn? Note that this approach relies on some knowledge of the heirarchy of the group, or at least a ranking member of the group. Drew _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 08:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: eskrima: titles, ranks, and rank titles > In the thread of who has titles, and are they > necessary, it seems to me that there is a semantics > issue. When someone mentions "title", does it mean > the same thing as "rank". Ray brought up the point of > the Dog Brothers having titles like "Head Instructor" > or some Japanese arts having titles like "shihan". In > my mind, these are ranks, not titles. IMHO... It gets a little less clear when an art, like FMA, seldom has a rank structure like Japanese, Korean and other arts. I might be a 5th Degree Black Belt (well defined rank) but my title might be Master or Kyosanim or Sabumnim (less well defined). W/o a degree rank structure then Guro becomes both a title and a rank. Head Instructor or Assistant Instructor ends up being a title and a rank. It sounds like in Modern Arnis, Datu is a title which is separate from rank. ?? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: TCSNo@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 11:10:30 EDT Subject: eskrima: Capoeira While watching that sucky Van Damme flick, "Quest" the other night, my thoughts drifted to the Capoeirista. He was actually very quick and graceful. I've seen performance style Capoeira during the last tour of "Oba-Oba" a few years ago. I was wondering how the gentleman at the Inosanto Academy applies his art combatively. That is, does he teach the drills and music, or does he teach defenses of thai kicks, guard position, boxing, etc? Thanks, Tom Furman,....tcsno@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 08:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #338 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.