From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #339 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Mon, 16 Aug 1999 Vol 06 : Num 339 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #338 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #338 eskrima: Re:Grip Strength eskrima: Kris Cutlery Korambit eskrima: Datu [none] eskrima: Why Rank? eskrima: re: springy batons eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S." Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 08:50:10 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #338 <> Well this is partly true. The important thing to understand for instructors and students is to know their attributes and shortcomings. Who someone "is" ,is not important. Whether they can teach you or whether you can learn via their training method is the key. Some instructors are great fighters and can't teach and still can make a good fighter of some. Some are great teachers and can't fight but still make good fighters out of some. The results depend as much on the student as they do the teacher. I have had many a class where the teaching assistant was a mcuh better teacher than the much acedemically decorated professor. So regardless of who the instructor says he is the bottom line is you gotta try it see if you like it. And you gotta do your part to be a good student. The best students read their teachers and the result is a synergistic disemination of information etc through participation. Most students are taught "At", and just show up to observe. Regards, Carlton H. Fung,D.D.S. Redondo Beach, Ca. ------------------------------ From: "Gary A. Hudgins" Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 11:34:16 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #338 eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com wrote: > Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sun, 15 Aug 1999 Vol 06 : Num 338 > > > ========================================================================== > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > << The grandest title I had ever heard until the 80's was "Mr". - > > "Sensei", > > "Sifu" and for one individual that developed Aikido --"O'Sensei". > > The Kung Fu TV show was in the early 70s. Grandmaster and Master were in > common usage then (the early 70s). Shihan, Judan, KwanJangNim, etc, have > been around for many decades. Yes?? > >> > Yes, I know that the TV show Kung Fu was in the early 70's. My layouts from active practice was from about 75 to early 80's. Law school, marriage and young children just don't give you must time to spend in the martial arts. I just never noticed all the masters and titles until I started getting back into the arts in the 80's. Not to say they did not exist before then, I just did not notice them. It is like a visit to another part of the country for vacation. When you return home, you notice things that you did not notice before you went on vacation. Yes, I did leave out the term "Shihan". For a very short time in '76 or '77 I spent a couple months studying (starting over) with Shihan Oyama in Birmingham, AL. I was just commenting on the vast explosion of titles since the 80's. No disrespect to anyone that has a title. Also, my comment was that in our dojo Black Belts were referred to as "Mr." example: Mr. Smith; Mr. Jones, ect. the Instructor of the school was called Sensei. No one ever used the term "Mr. Sensei". Thats why I had the quotation marks around Mr. example "Mr." separate example "Sensei". PS. Thanks to those people that provide links to other sources. Is there a forum like this one for Silat? Gary H. ------------------------------ From: pjm@buffnet.net Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 13:27:23 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re:Grip Strength The boar stick, for those who have never used one, is a two inch in diameter almost 40" weapon that resembles a table leg. Quite a different feeling than swinging 1'/4 diameter 30 inch sticks. As for grip, because of it's size I think that one seminars worth of training is nt enough to get used to it or to fashion the stick to your tastes. I am not a practitioner of bando and have only had seminar training with Dr. Gyi like you. As with all weapons, practice, practice, practice before making modifications to make it easy. It's amazing how initial ease and bad habits make good bed fellows. Phil "Rhino Style" ------------------------------ From: Kalki Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 12:46:50 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Kris Cutlery Korambit Thansk for the follow-up. I've had a look at the Kris Cutlery Korambit and wanted something smaller. The design is ++cool, but at 5.5" it has too much blade for my purposes. Szabo's Phillipine Box-Cutter is more like it. The "La Griffe" is cool too. ------------------------------ From: abanico-video-knuettel@t-online.de (Dieter Knüttel) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 01:18:15 +0200 Subject: eskrima: Datu Hi everybody, the Datu thread seems to continue therefore I would like to make a few remarks: First, rank and title: > It sounds like in Modern Arnis, Datu is a title which is separate from > rank. ?? > > Ray Terry Ray is right, the Datu title in Modern Arnis is not combined with the rank. I know of Dan Anderson, who is 7th Dan under Professor Remy Presas, but is not Datu in Modern Arnis. I think Datu Kelly Worden and Datu Shishir Inocalla are also 6th Dan like I am. About others I don´t know. We in Modern Arnis regard the levels 1st to 5th Dan as "Expert" levels, 6th Dan is "Junior Master", 7th Dan is "Senior Master" and 8th, 9th and 10th Dan are the levels for "Grandmaster". As far as I know Dan Anderson is the only western person that received 7th Dan from Professor Presas (please let me know, if you know of any others) Higher levels were only awarded to a few Filipinos by the Professor or his brother Ernesto. I knew of the late Willie Annang (9th Dan) Crestino Vasquez (8th Dan) besides Roberto Presas (9th Dan). (Definitively not a complete list) Isn´t there somebody Fred Lazlo (spelling) 9th Dan? I am not sure. Then some list members asked interesting questions like if Professor Presas got the title Datu himself too and some made remarks, that it is not appropriate for "westerners" to use this titel and there were contributions to the ED talking of persons, who gave this title themselves. First of all, I am talking primarily about me and perhaps a little for Kelly Worden and Shishir Inocalla. I got this title from Professor Presas (and I am sure the other 2 too). I never asked for this title and I never expected it. For the first two points, if Professor got this title and that we westerners shold not use it. Very interesting, but I think, academic questions. Let me explain why I think so: I am german, a white man, a westerner, a big nose, a round eye, whatever you want to call me. I try to practice and teach the FAM to the best I know. Imagine the following situation (which hppened to me): You host your Filipino born and raised Grandmaster. One day and he promotes you and gives you a title, that you know, he hands out VERY seldom. He is one of a few acknowledged Grandmasters of the FMA and a Filipino. Now I ask you: Whe you get your diploma and title out of his hands you start asking: "Sir, did you get this title yourself too? If not, I cannot accept this!????" Nobody would. Or do you ask this Filipino Grandmaster as a western person: "As far as I know, this title is given in the Philippines only from the Sultans, Goverment, Kings or whatever: Sorry Grandmaster, I think you have no right to give this title to me. I have to refuse it." Nobody would have said this, and if you respect your grandmaster, nobody can say this. Apart for the fact, that at least I did not know anything about the Datu title at that time: who am I to tell my Grandmaster, what he can do and what not, especially regarding HIS culture. And if I would do so, I think, I would not have a Granmaster any more, because I doubt if any Grandmaster would keep a student, who tells him what he can do and what not. I do understand the problems, that Filipinos may have with the fact, that some western persons got this title in a way, that it is not used in the Philippines (martial arts), and be sure that I would rather go swimming with hungry sharks than introduce myself in the Philippines with : "Hello I am Datu Dieter Knüttel" I know it would not be appropriate to do this, because there, the title has traditionally another meaning than the way I got it and the way I was told to use it. I will host Professor Presas on the last weekend of October in Frankfurt/Germany (everybody welcome to participate), and I will try to talk with him about the Datu title. If he feels, that I should inform the ED about this talk, I will be happy to do so. BTW, When I hosted Suro Mike Inay a few years ago, a little before my promotion and the Datu title he asked me suddenly: "What is your title (in the FMA)"? And I said: "I don´t have a title" His response was: "You should have a title." So to some, and I think to a lot of people, titles seem to be important in one way or another. I agree with the contributions to the ED that stated, that a title is no good, if you have no skill behind it. You have to be able to show your proficiency in the art. I do not agree with the statement "What good is a Grandmaster title, when you get your butt kicked". We had this thread a few years ago and I still think, that a Grandmaster must be more that a fighter. He should be a guide through martial arts and, if he is a good one, through life. He must be able to hand down his system, he must be a honest person, that the students feel worth to look up to, and he muß not feel the need anymore, to proove his skills against anybody who thinks to get fast popularity by fighting a Grandmaster. There are a lot of old Grandmasters around, who would still be able to beat most of the younger figters, but I also think for example some 25 or 30 year old fighter coming, let us say from the dog brothers, would be able to win against some 50 or 60 year old Grandmaster and you know what: I couldn´t care less. A Grandmaster has achieved something through his art in life which is far more important than to win a fight. But I think I shifted away from my topic. These were just my 2 cents, no offend intended against anybody. Replies, private or through the ED appreciated. Dieter Knüttel Datu in Modern Arnis ABANICO Video Productions European Modern Arnis Representative E-Mail: abanico-video-knuettel@t-online.de Internet: http://www.dao.com/abanico/ ------------------------------ From: Luis Pellicer Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:49:43 +0800 Subject: [none] >Similarly, our titles have an "unserious" quality to them. Perhaps >different values underlie them in comparison to some, but they are titles >nevertheless. However, the examples of titles Ray uses come not from the >Dog Brothers, but from Dog Brothers Martial Arts (DBMA). >Woof, >Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny >Co-founder and Guiding Force of the Dog Brothers >Founder and Head Teacher of Dog Brothers Martial Arts >Guro or Marc to my students >Guro in Inosanto Blend >Sr. Apprentice in Lameco >Private student of Guro Inosanto, PG Edgar Sulite, and recently of Grand >Tuhon Leo Gaje >BJJ training partner to Dan Inosanto >2X Senior Blue Belt BJJ Pan American Mid-Heavyweight Gold Medallist >Purple Belt: Machado Jiu Jitsu >Morro the Akita's human dad >Adam, Jasa, Eric, and Shayna's uncle >Cindy's husband >Conrad's father > See? You have fun, build genuine fighting skills, respect and try to learn as much as you can about the culture of origin, and obviously don't take "titles" too seriously. The art has evolved to suit the environment, but due respect to the origins is given. No allusions to the "Kapatid na Aso" (Dog Brothers) being some ancient Filipino cult with mystic origins. Too bad others don't learn from this. LSPIII Kyle and Katrinas Dad Michelles Slave Bruce the German Shepherds Official Poopie Scooper PS. Romy Macapagal is wondering if you still have the training knife he gave you at the academy when he was down there with Edgar Sulite several years ago. LSPIII ------------------------------ From: "BILL MCGRATH" Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:13:46 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Why Rank? I use rank as a way to help standardize instruction in Pekiti-Tirsia. On the Pekiti-Tirsia web site (www.pekiti-tirsia.com), in the basic info package I send out and periodically in our newsletters, I have a rank chart that shows which techniques are required for which rank. I believe very strongly in "laying your cards on the table" and telling people up front specifically what they will need to learn to get a certain rank. It also allows a student who is training with a Guro Isa (Instructor level 1) in New York to travel to Texas and continue his training with a different Guro Isa and know that the Texas instructor is certified by me as being capable of teaching the same level of techniques as his previous instructor. The Roman republic used to carve the laws of the land on the pillars in front of the Senate for all the citizens to see. I think a public display of the techniques required for each rank helps keep everyone in the system honest. The head of a system can't dangle an imaginary "secret technique" in front of his students and it keeps instructors honest in that an instructor at one level can't claim to be certified to teach something from a higher rank. I think a rank in a martial art should be similar to a degree from a university. A Bachelor of Arts degree has certain known requirements that are lower than that of the Masters in the same subject and the Masters is lower than the Ph.D. To teach at an elementary school requires one degree, but to teach at college level a higher degree. The following are the names for the different ranks in Pekiti-Tirsia and were chosen by Tuhon Gaje. Yakan Lit "Student" Tuhon Gaje said it was a term used for elementary school students in his province. I use it to signify a student fully accepted into the system. Lakan. Lit "First Step" I believe it comes from the same root as the Indonesian "Lankah". He said this was used for middle school students. Lakan Guro.(two levels in PTI ranking) Lit. "Fist Step Instructor". I use it for Assistant Instructor. Guro. Lit "Teacher" (four levels in PTI ranking). Mataas na Guro. Lit "Master Instructor". I use it as a "Masters Degree in teaching Pekiti-Tirsia". Magino'o Guro Lit. "Elder Instructor". Used when a Mataas na Guro has benefited the system by putting forth good quality instructors of his own. Tuhon Guro. I have heard Tuhon translated as either "chief" "headman" or "lord". Tuhon Gaje said that while originally the chief of a village would be referred to as the Tuhon, in modern times the dean of a college could also be referred to as the Tuhon Guro or chief instructor of that school and that is the meaning I prefer to use. I think where people have problems with rank is not with the type of ranking I am talking about but when people fake a rank and their "B.S." degree does not stand for "Bachelor of Science (they say they graduated from Harvard, but they really dropped out of community college) . The other type of problem is when instructors let their rank go to their heads. Many of us have come across the attitude "I am a master of my martial art, therefore I am a master in all things". Movies, our attitudes as young students and even some cultures encourage this to a certain extent, but I think this doesn't remove the responsibility from the instructor himself. A friend of mine who is a senior rank in his system of Kung Fu calls this problem the "master syndrome" or MS. The symptoms of MS can include: Treating your students bank accounts as your own. Treating your female students as your own personal harem. A belief in your own infallibility or your personal manifest destiny - "if I did it, then it was meant to happen". Please don't take this to mean I do not think elder instructors don't deserve to be shown respect, both because of their age and their accomplishments. I just think we all should keep a little sign on our desks that reads "It's only martial arts." Regards, Bill McGrath Tuhon Guro for Pekiti-Tirsia International, Beginner in most everything else. ------------------------------ From: Patrick Davies Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:34:10 +0100 Subject: eskrima: re: springy batons I have one that is all spring. Superb little thing. Good shake and its = out. When it hits something it seems to stay longer therefore, I presume, = giving a greater force at the point of contact. It sits in my car nowadays, = but following Bill McGraths suggestions on environmental placement it is = doing the rounds to get the favourable position.=20 Joe said <> I also have a cut off of a hose(about 1 =BD feet) which is just = wonderful. I believe that it almost sticks to the point of contact. My theory is = that the longer the points of contact then the greater the amount of force is = passed over. The same reasoning that you want your empty hand cross to be = straight in that it remains in contact with the chin for longer 'punching = through'. The good thing about it is that I can get away with it not being a premeditated weapon on the basis that it could be deemed to be work orientated. Its heavy/stiff enough not to rebound back onto me yet, but not having = to had to use it for real (but the dummy screams!) I cannot tell. The hose = has steel mesh reinforcement to it by the way. pat ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 06:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #339 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in directory pub/eskrima/digests. 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