From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #373 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sun, Sept 5 1999 Vol 06 : Num 373 In this issue: eskrima: Attitudes eskrima: Oregon attempt to regulate MAs eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #371 eskrima: Oregon Bill SB904 Re: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #371 eskrima: Re: FMA in Orlando eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #371 eskrima: Asp and collapsable batons eskrima: Da Laundromat Guy et al eskrima: Don't Be There eskrima: Best Block eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: butch@epix.net Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 17:49:34 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Attitudes Someone posted on the ED: We have come to the crux of the matter of how to prevent violence. A key point I stress in training people: It doesn't matter if the guy can get away with it or not. What determines if the guy will attack or not is whether or not is that he PERCEIVES that he can get away with it. Whether he has totally underestimated the situation (or doesn't recognize the danger signals) or his own internal garbage is so overwhelming that he is blinded to everything else but the message inside his own head doesn't matter. If he thinks he can get away with it he will go for it. I guarantee you this. Butch: Another point to consider is the legal/social aspect of trying to teach an unpolite person a lesson so he will no longer think/perceive that he can keep "getting away with it". If a person perceives he can get away with it, he will try. The Law of Averages is with him. Why not? The unpolite person has done his thing many times before and received no punnishment or consequences at all. All of my martial arts friends and instructors talk about this all of the time. What to do? Even if an unpolite person needs a healthy dose of behavior modification, most people are afraid to do so because of the legal/social consequences involved. So even if you do teach rude people a lesson in manners(use your imagination), it can backfire on you. The offender will go to the police and make up a story which puts you on the spot. You could be judged the bad guy and the one who started it. After all, it is his word against yours in court. This is a chance you take especially if you get carried away with your use of force against an unpolite fool. The police will be after you. Also, the fool's attorney could be after you. After all, alot of these unpolite fools know the laws better than you. They will use the law against you. So if you are confronted by an unpolite fool and you escalate the confrontation to more violent one by sticking up for yourself etc..., you could be held responsible for the results however good or bad. I was told by the police that under common law, I have the obligation to retreat from a potentially hostile or dangerous situation so as to not escalate the situation where the offender or myself could get hurt. So if the society I live in prohibits people from defending themselves or trying to correct unpolite peoples' behavior, no wonder these unpolite people and/or criminals perceive that they can get away with it. They usually do! What are you going to do at the Laundry Mat where you and your wife are minding your own business and some punk(s) start to cause you trouble. You may even have a gun and a knife on your person but you really cannot display them or use them unless your life is threatened (another story). So your only option is to just leave the area, call the police and they make a report. Once again, the fools have had their way since the police usually blow that sort of thing off after a minor investigation. Also, it is hard to press harassment charges against somebody and make them stick. The crime is usually a misdemeanor with a $50.00 fine. Been there and done that. It is alot of time and BS. Not really worth it. Then you have developed a blood fued with the unpolite neighborhood fools and it goes on and on. The justice system can't deal with this stuff. The police and courts get fustrated with "your problem" and start calling you the trouble maker after awhile. You either learn to ignore these people and hopefully they will quit bothering you or go away or you opt for street justice if you know for sure that you can get away with it. Otherwise, you must except the politically correct Victimology routine and the fools once again get away with their behavior. Remember, there have been many people on the ED who have stated that there is not much "individual accountability" for people's actions anymore. This nonaccountability concept also allows for the unpolite fools to get away with their behavior. Even if the fools do get caught, their attorneys will come up with some psychobabble disease that made their clients do what they did. Maybe this all goes back to self defense and the law posts again. How far can you go to correct a rude individual's behavior or crimianal threat while keeping yourself safe from harm in all ways. ------------------------------ From: "Ken Grubb" Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 17:22:19 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Oregon attempt to regulate MAs Ray Terry asked: > Does anyone have info on the recent attempt of Oregon State > Senator John Lim's bill, SB 904, to regulate martial arts > schools in Oregon? It is apparently similar to New Jersey's > bill in that it provides for an advisory commission "to advise > the Senate and the Governor on bills relating to the martial > arts regulation". > > Any more info out there? http://www.leg.state.or.us/ Here's the Oregon Legislature homepage said: SB 904 By Senator LIM -- Relating to sports. 3-19(S) Introduction and first reading. Referred to President's desk. 3-22 Referred to General Government. 4-22 Public Hearing held. 7-24 In committee upon adjournment. WARNING!!!!! The details are in one BMF text file. They crammed everything about every single bill into one text file. Not so smart website design. gopher://gopher.leg.state.or.us/00/measure.dir/senmh.txt - ------- Pain is temporary. Glory is forever. Chicks dig scars. Ken Grubb Bellevue, WA ------------------------------ From: "Jeffrey Monaghan" Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 18:31:41 -0700 Subject: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #371 >>>>If this is true, it was for in the US only. And even that is debatable. Ray Terry As far as I know it is for the US. I can't say about any other country. What is debatable? Do you have any public or private footage or eye witnesses dating earlier than 1964? There were several thousand people in attendance and 8mm film footage. Anyone who say otherwise without proof is hearsay and therefore debatable. Jeff ------------------------------ From: Wschpunyo@aol.com Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 22:58:47 EDT Subject: eskrima: Oregon Bill SB904 >>Does anyone have info on the recent attempt of Oregon State Senator John Lim's bill, SB 904, to regulate martial arts schools in Oregon? It is apparently similar to New Jersey's bill in that it provides for an advisory commission "to advise the Senate and the Governor on bills relating to the martial arts regulation". Any more info out there?>> So far, all I could find out was that does not show up on the list of "Bills recieved and acted upon by the Govener" for the 99 session. I'll keep digging. I've attached a copy of the Bill below. Have at it. Bill 70th OREGON LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY--1999 Regular Session NOTE: Matter within { + braces and plus signs + } in an amended section is new. Matter within { - braces and minus signs - } is existing law to be omitted. New sections are within { + braces and plus signs + } . LC 3898 Senate Bill 904 Sponsored by Senator LIM SUMMARY The following summary is not prepared by the sponsors of the measure and is not a part of the body thereof subject to consideration by the Legislative Assembly. It is an editor's brief statement of the essential features of the measure as introduced. Establishes Oregon Martial Arts Advisory Commission. A BILL FOR AN ACT Relating to sports. Be It Enacted by the People of the State of Oregon: SECTION 1. { + As used in sections 2 and 3 of this 1999 Act, ' martial arts' means any form of karate, kung fu or tae kwon do or any other form of full contact martial arts or self-defense conducted on a full contact basis where a weapon is not used. + } SECTION 2. { + (1) There is established the Oregon Martial Arts Advisory Commission consisting of 11 members. Nine of the members shall be voting members and shall be appointed by the Governor. Seven of the members appointed by the Governor shall represent martial arts schools, clubs or instructors, and two of the members appointed by the Governor shall represent students in martial arts schools or participants in martial arts events. The President of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives shall each appoint one non-voting member who is not a state legislator. (2) The term of office for members is four years. Before the expiration of the term of a member, the Governor, President of the Senate or Speaker of the House of Representatives shall appoint a successor whose term begins on July 1 next following. A member is eligible for reappointment. If there is a vacancy for any cause, the appointing authority shall make an appointment to become immediately effective for the unexpired term. + } SECTION 3. { + (1) The purpose of the Oregon Martial Arts Advisory Commission shall be to promote the martial arts by: (a) Promoting the safety of participants in martial arts classes, instruction and events. (b) Ensuring uniformity and accuracy in credentials of martial arts schools and instructors. In carrying out the purposes of this paragraph, the commission may inform the public of any discrepancies the commission discovers in the credentials of martial arts schools and instructors. (c) Coordinating the selection of Oregon representatives for Olympic trials in martial arts events and advising the United States Olympic Committee on selection of Oregon representatives for the United States Olympic team in martial arts events held in future Olympics. (2) To promote and improve public understanding of martial arts, the commission shall review legislative plans and proposals relating to martial arts, advise the Governor and the Legislative Assembly concerning the plans and proposals and make recommendations for regulation of martial arts, including licensing of schools and instructors. + } SECTION 4. { + (1) The Oregon Martial Arts Advisory Commission shall select one of its members as chairperson and another as vice chairperson, for four-year terms and with duties and powers necessary for the performance of the functions of such offices as the commission determines. (2) A majority of the members of the commission constitutes a quorum for the transaction of business. (3) The commission shall meet at least once every two months at a place, day and hour determined by the commission. The commission also shall meet at other times and places specified by the call of the chairperson or of a majority of the members of the commission. (4) Each member of the commission shall receive compensation and expenses as provided in ORS 292.495. + } SECTION 5. { + (1) The Oregon Department of Administrative Services shall provide technical, clerical and other necessary support services to the Oregon Martial Arts Advisory Commission. The Department of Consumer and Business Services shall provide assistance, as required, to the commission to enable the commission to meet its objectives. (2) To aid and advise the Oregon Martial Arts Advisory Commission in the performance of its functions, the commission may establish such advisory and technical committees as it considers necessary. These committees may be continuing or temporary. The commission shall determine the representation, membership, terms and organization of the committees and shall appoint their members. (3) Members of the committees are not entitled to compensation, but at the discretion of the commission may be reimbursed from funds available to the commission for actual and necessary travel and other expenses incurred by them in the performance of their official duties, subject to ORS 292.495. + } SECTION 6. { + Notwithstanding section 2 (2) of this 1999 Act, of the members first appointed to the Oregon Martial Arts Advisory Commission by the Governor, five members shall serve for terms of two years. The terms of members appointed by the Governor shall be determined by lot at the first meeting of the commission. + } ---------- ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 20:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #371 > >>>>If this is true, it was for in the US only. And even that is debatable. > Ray Terry > > > As far as I know it is for the US. I can't say about any other country. > What is debatable? Do you have any public or private footage or eye > witnesses dating earlier than 1964? There were several thousand people in > attendance and 8mm film footage. Anyone who say otherwise without proof is > hearsay and therefore debatable. The USA was left off the original statement, without it I'm sure you'll agree it is incorrect. However even with the US added, what of Hawaii? Most agree that Eskrima/Kali/Arnis had been publically demonstrated there well prior to 1964, yes? So perhaps the statement is then true for the US mainland (which is the way this claim is typically stated). Then what of public demos, perhaps small and unofficial, in the Stockton, CA area? It was the heart of the Filipino community in the USA in the '50s and '60s. I'm not saying that GM Ben T. Largusa wasn't the first to publically demo FMA on the US mainland, just that we don't know that without a doubt. Perhaps he was the first to do it on the US mainland at a large martial arts tournament.?. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: GuroJohn@aol.com Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 03:19:27 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: FMA in Orlando In a message dated 99-08-27 18:56:45 EDT, you write: << eskrima >> Dear Mr. Castro, Sorry but I have just gotten around to reading the diegest in which you ask about FMA in the Orlando area. I use to live there and I can reccommend several people to contact.The first person that I would reccommend is my teacher AmaGuro Raffy Pambuan. Guro Raffy is one of the most knowledgeable arnisadors I have ever run across. On top of that he is truly a caring individual. He wants you to get it. I've seen him spend a great deal of time with people to insure a pleasurable learning experiance. Due to Guro Raffy's schedule (Head Chef at Universal Studios) it might be better to call and arrange to train on a regular basis with one of the Guro's of the Pambuan Arnis in the area. Guro's Work Number is:407-363-8351 and ask for Raffy Pambuan. Another person is Master Mike Sayoc in the Kissimmee, St. Cloud area. Master Mike teaches the Sayoc Kali system. Master Mike is known for his bullwhip work that he taught to other famous FMA Guro's. His number is 407-9570941 There is also a protege of Prof. Remy Presas in Orlando by the name of Bruce Chiu. Bruce comes from a long and prestigious martial arts line of Chinese and American martial arts. His stick work is excellent. His Pager Number is 407-981-7696. I also understand that a studnet of Jimmy Tacosa now has a school in Winter Park. I do not remeber his name, only that he teaches Kenpo and Serrada. I have probable missed someone but I have not lived ther in 1 and a 1/2 years. Best of luck. John Bain KDOOA PMAF-Exec. Dir. ------------------------------ From: pjm@buffnet.net Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 11:04:16 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #371 StickPeople said "What do the members think of trainig in another art like wing chung do, judo ,shoot, boxing,fencing ect.. To help "enhance" the mother art. Does any one have any good storys and info about knife throwing and butterfly knife." The cross training which has helped my Arnis has been American Kenpo and fencing with strong seminar influences from Dr. Gyi and Rocky. The Kenpo did a lot to develo my basics, body mechanics and understanding of my opponent's reactions to my attacks and therefore shape my follup ups and extensions. At our school in Buffalo New York, a number of us have had the opportunity to train in Ed Parker's American Kenpo and were very pleased at how well our Arnis training and Kenpo training blended. As for the fencing, my teacher, another student and myself compete in SCA medievil style fighting that allows the use of the off hand which traditional college and olympic fencing does not allow (to the best of my knowledge that is). I have found that a great deal of the blade oriented work does transfer directly to the epee blade. The foil is very flexible and offers a wek block at best. I find that my style varies widely when using either weapon. A proud Arnis moment came in one tournament where I watched my teacher, Punong Guro Tim Hartman execute a number 5 Modern Arnis disarm on his opponent not once but a few times just to make sure it wasn't a fluke. Another classmate and I were watching it laughing knowing full well what happened that others in attendance did not pick up on. Recently in picking up case style, or florentine as its sometimes known (two swords) I found that my double baston work (primarily sinwali drills) made it very easy fro me to use weapons in each hand independently of each other and in tandem. I have found that the fencing has helped in my knfe sparring as well. My targeting and flow has increased as has my movement. I should also point out that my fighting creativity has been enhanced by my Filipino training that is absent in some of the more classical students. In conclusion, cross training is an invaulable tool and should not be denied. God forbis any of us have to acknowledge that there is not one perfect system. *lol* I know that Rocky has done some fencing so I hope that he will add his thoughts on what his FMA training has brought to fencing and what the fencing has done for him. Phil "Rhino Style" ------------------------------ From: pjm@buffnet.net Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 11:15:25 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Asp and collapsable batons I was dissapointed to find out that carrying such weapons were illegal (at least her in NY State to the best of my knowledge). In reviewing self defense options I theorized that I would be better off using a collapsable baton to disarm an attacker with less chance of it being turned on me or caising excessive damage to my attacker which a knife or gun might cause. In a tussle I'd rather screw up with a baston then a knife seeing that either of us could fall upon the weapon (the idea of falling on my own blade does not appeal to me and the idea of going to jail for killing my attacker doesn't thrill me either) What is the lists general oppinion on the asp or collapsable baton as a legal self defense tool even if it requires some form of certification (which if they apply the USAF standard it would just require a one hour seminar)? Phil "Rhino Style" ------------------------------ From: "Mikal Keenan" Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 11:57:54 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Da Laundromat Guy et al Right on the money Animal. Your comments reinforce what I once tried to explain to "colleagues" while pursuing the ol' PhD in behavioral science/behavioral medicine ... a good student of life experience can be more in touch with how the human critter works than somebody who hangs out in the Ivory Towers and knows current "Personality Theory" (psych religions :-) forward and backwards. I can second everything that you've said by my own experiences. Behaviorism also proves your point, i.e., conditioning. In order to stop a behavior punishment must be immediate, appropriate and consistent. Then it works. Whenever someone repeats a behavior they condition themselves to predict the same outcomes for later performances of that behavior. Unless they experience "aversive" outcomes, they can be expected to repeat it. Conditioning is a cool property of the organism that can work for or against us ... but I ain't goin'into it here. But consider this, reward a behavior intermittently and you have greater chances of success at entraining that behavior than if you reward it all the time. Reward it all the time and it will probably not continue. You raise a very significant point re: culturally-bound patterns of expression/body language/etc. and how knowledge of them can make the diff in life/death situations. Living in Dixie I've been told that I'm "too serious" (?) i.e., in the "quality" of my reactions to comments, looks, and other behaviors that someone with healthy self respect might react to. I understand that it is a cultural difference (I'm from D.C. and most of my formative years had me moving around in the Northeast up to Montreal). Many people here say and do things that they are unprepared to answer for, and don't realize that they may have pushed a river that's already got them in checkmate. What's the easiest way to get someone to drop their guard? BTW, behavioral scientists have proven that the athlete who trains his/her intellectual capacities can perform better at intellectual tasks than the individual(s) who only exercise their intellectual capacities. ... and special thanks to those who responded to Tuhon McGrath's questions re: training. I especially liked the recommendation of espada y daga for intro work to promote use of the "weak" hand. Rick Faye once showed me how to work towards double stick Sumbrada, i.e., start by holding the left hand stick short (like daga) and gradually extend it so that it fits into the pattern where we might otherwise be checking with the left hand. Then he began to vary the pattern, adding in straight line attacks. The next step in the progression of things would shift the pattern over to left hand dominance (right hand checks). Ultimately we would wind up with a 'freestyle' pattern if the term is suitable. Didn't get there then, wasn't something that we did in regular classes. (Thanks Rick ... I'm going to work this like crazy :-) Play Wei Chi/I-Go/Baduk! Anybody for a few Tangrams? Exercise that cerebrum baby!!! Be well, Mik ------------------------------ From: "Mikal Keenan" Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 12:27:30 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Don't Be There > How to prevent violence? Both Dad and Street Dude have echoed to me the advice of refraining from "socializing" with girl/woman who's got another guy anywhere in the picture. Separated or divorced with problem estranged/divorced husband is a very dangerous walk no matter how innocent it may seem ... gotta acknowledge biological primacy ... we be of the animal kingdom, etc., etc. (instincts). I had friends in high school who found themselves in such a scenario ... one shot the other in the head. Mom once told me "Son, a woman can get you hurt on a humble" ... in other words, real cheap, like you were just along for the ride and the driver totalled the car? That drunk husband could've had a gun or shiv and stuck it in your face just for being with her. IMHO, the drunk husband was fueled by two things ... seeming relationship with his estranged wife (I would need to know a heck of a lot more before accompanying her -anywhere-) and the appearance of no contest (waving ha nds). Some people just want the fight no matter what. This strikes a chord for me because I lost an uncle to a knife that found its way to him because "he got caught in a -situation- with" some other guy's "girlfriend." Fortunately for everybody, dad and older brother didn't find the guy when they went looking for him. Left a grieving mom and kids who lost dad "on a humble." Re: Getting in your hits after being hit ... one of my teachers used to say that he had to be stung once before he woke up and found his fight. Polynesian fighters will smack on their torsos, arms and thighs to jumpstart their fight-readiness. The sting wakes up something in the organism that the socialized mind may not get to quickly enough. ------------------------------ From: "Mikal Keenan" Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 12:30:40 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Best Block > One day, if I have another opportunity as this > night maybe I will stand there and see what happens, but for now > "THE BEST BLOCK IS TO NOT BE THERE". (Karate Kid II) No chico, the best block will still be TO NOT BE THERE or get the H outta there muy pronto. Why court danger/dismemberment/demise/death? Stand there and see what happens? Ai-yai-YAI!!! ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 10:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #373 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.