From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #386 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sun, 12 Sept 1999 Vol 06 : Num 386 In this issue: eskrima: vocab lessons eskrima: Villabraille eskrima: re: Let me rephrase that... eskrima: Spyderco Triangle sharpener eskrima: Icepick grip eskrima: Shaving eskrima: Ayo Gurkha! eskrima: Re: Just wondering??? eskrima: Viewers' guide to Gatherings and Gathering update eskrima: Multiple Attackers Re: eskrima: Villabraille eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. 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Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Corley" Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 14:54:39 -0500 Subject: eskrima: vocab lessons > Ashley, > > I have a link on my web page that can take you to an online dictionary for > Filipino terms. > http://pages.prodigy.net/kymatt22 just follow the links to the martial > arts part of the page. > hope this helps some. > > turk ------------------------------ From: "Jeffrey Monaghan" Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 17:14:34 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Villabraille Villabraille did fight in the public matches in Hawaii in the forties, Ben Largusa is still the first person to demonstrate Kali in a public forum in the US. Hawaii was not part of the US until 1959. We did have a military base and other territories in Hawaii but we have also have a base in Cuba but we still don't own Cuba. Villabraille fought with a garrote or hardwood war club shaped like a oval or diamond. I totally agree with Ray on not going to the ground. One of my friends was a state champion wrestler and thought he was going to wrestle this skinny guy in a fight. One of the guy's friends hit him over the head with a lead slap. He spent the next week in the hospital with a concussion, cracked ribs, etc because they keep kicking him after he was unconscious. The myth of mano y mano is going to get you hurt if you count on it. I follow the Silat concept of always fighting more than one opponent. Jeff ------------------------------ From: "C. Herrman" Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 20:36:58 -0400 Subject: eskrima: re: Let me rephrase that... Jason wrote: >There is nothing I would rather do than spend every waking minute with my >wife to be! (snip) ***Chris, can you back me up on this one? Me: 1. Jason has been very busy preparing for his upcoming wedding. 2. Jason's fiance is an excellent cook. 3. Jason does have a nice weapon's collection. I think it's pretty understandable that, in his excitement about honeymooning in Italy, Jason's original post sounded a little funny. I have no doubt that he and his fiance are both looking forward to spending their honeymoon and their future together. They are a great couple and I wish them all the best! Sincerely, Chris H. friend & student: EEMD ------------------------------ From: Jivita@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 21:55:02 EDT Subject: eskrima: Spyderco Triangle sharpener In a message dated 9/11/99 9:17:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I would suggest that you get a Spyderco Triangle sharpener.It is a ceramic stick sharpener. The sticks are triangular in cross section and the corners can be used to sharpen the serrations. It is a bit time consuming, but a small (3") serrated knife can be sharpened in 5-10 minutes. (Dry-shaving sharp) There are several other companies that sell these type of triangular ceramic sticks. >> FYI. Spyderco has a new sharpener that, according to the sales lady is "200 times better". It comes complete with intructional book and video for $70.00. Jim Lowe Berkeley Eskrima Club ------------------------------ From: "BILL MCGRATH" Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 23:06:11 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Icepick grip Ray asked, "On your icepick/earth grip, do you like edge out or edge in?" If the handle allows it, I prefer edge in with a small knife. The reason being that on a small knife a icepick grip slash will not buy you much of a cut, while an edge in rip will hurt big time. Edge in also helps counter disarming attempts. The few techniques I like with edge out icepick grip come from a few Golok techniques I learned in Penjak. The golok my instructor had (Eddie Jafri) looked like a thick, plain, blunt kitchen knife with a simple handle with a small right angle on the end of the grip. The golok was held against the forearm and ran the length of the arm to a point just past the elbow. "Sharp" elbow strikes played a big part in the technique as the fight often started with the golok hid up your sleeve. An elbow strike would "unsheath" the golok much the same way the thinly bound sheath on a barong is designed to come apart under impact. The golok had sufficient length and weight to make a reverse grip slash or hack a viable disabler of a limb. I think some things often get lost in translation when a technique for a blade comes to the west from Asia, but the blade the technique was designed around doesn't make the trip (or at least is not used as a day to day carry blade). A "knife" technique designed for a bolo or barong may be a totally different thing than a technique designed for a 4" balisong even though both are correctly called "Filipino knife techniques". In a previous post I mentioned how I would start a knife vs. hand seminar with a quick lesson to a female white belt on knife then let a male black belt try to disarm her. The quickie knife lesson I gave consisted of the knife in icepick grip edge in. I gave the white belts just a forehand and backhand diagonal stab/rip, a simple counter to a wristgrab (grab the knuckles of your knife hand, put the blade on the back of his and "row" backwards with your lats) and an eyejab with the knife. To these techniques I added a minute of drill where they would write their name in the air with the knife just to add some randomness to their movements. That was enough so that none of the male blackbelts in the these schools could disarm them. Now granted, the whitebelts were not fighting a blackbelt trying to knock them out no matter if he got cut in the process, but considering the white belts had a lesson that lasted all of 5 minutes, a guy who thought he was going to have an easy time disarming them would be in for a nasty surprise. Maybe a little knowledge really is a dangerous thing. Regards, Tuhon Bill McGrath PS. to subscribe to Pekiti-Tirsia digest, just email majordomo@pekiti-tirsia.org and write the words "subscribe pekiti-tirsia digest" (without the "quote" marks) in the BODY of the email. ------------------------------ From: Michael Koblic Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 20:32:34 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Shaving >I would suggest that you get a Spyderco Triangle sharpener.It is a ceramic stick >sharpener. The sticks are triangular in >cross section and the corners can be used to sharpen the >serrations. It is a bit time consuming, but a small (3") >serrated knife can be sharpened in 5-10 minutes. (Dry-shaving >sharp) There are several other companies that sell these >type of triangular ceramic sticks. > How do you shave with serrated edge? Mike Koblic, Quesnel BC ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 21:34:39 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Ayo Gurkha! A Howl of Greeting to All: List member Richard Killick was kind enough to forward the following to me. Woof, Crafty - --------------------------------------------------- Gurkhas prepare for East Timor role Britain has put a detachment of more than 250 Gurkhas on stand-by for possible participation in a United Nations intervention force in the troubled state of East Timor. Prime Minister Tony Blair has urged Indonesian President BJ Habibie to invite a multinational peacekeeping force into the former Portuguese colony, but the Indonesian leader insists that the situation can be brought under control without outside help. However, Indonesian army commander General Wiranto says he will recommend to his president the "accelerated deployment of international peacekeepers" to East Timor, according to UN officials. Wiranto told a delegation of five ambassadors from the UN Security Council, who are touring battle-scarred East Timorese capital Dili, that he will tell Habibie to consider allowing a peacekeeping mission. The MoD announcement will put extra pressure on Habibie to respond to international outrage at the massacres which followed last week's referendum on East Timorese independence. An MoD spokesman said that a Gurkha reconnaissance party would be sent to the East Timor area at the start of next week to establish what equipment, communications facilities and logistic support would be needed by a UK contingent in any international force. Meanwhile, talks are under way with the Australian government on what part the Gurkhas, from the 2nd Battalion Royal Gurkha Rifles, presently based in nearby Brunei, could play in a UN force. The MoD spokesman said: "Should a UN-mandated international force be needed for East Timor, these are the people who would go. "Because they are in Brunei, they are acclimatised to local conditions and can be deployed within two days. "We are working closely with the Australian on plans for the Gurkhas' possible involvement." ------------------------------ From: chad g Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 22:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Re: Just wondering??? With all the feedback that Tuhan McGrath has been getting on his questions, I have one for anyone interested. Most people are safe and can instinctively protect themselves at a long range, half of them can probably really deal with a fight at close range, however,(this is not meant to offend anyone ) alot of people train the middle range just a few inches too close. What is probably (I said probably) the most neglected areas of training is that line that bridges the ranges of long to middle and middle to close, of course we won't even go into the debate of the clinch and grappling(although applicable, it is not what I am asking so we can leave that for another question). The "box drills" I feel are drills that show you how to get comfortable not in "middle" range, but right on the line between middle and close. Someone who has been in a stickfight before knows that it just takes a lean forward to hit or a lean backwards to be missed, but a first-timer will step out of middle into long range(this is not necessarilly true or untrue for everybody, and stepping out of range doesn't make someone inexperienced or a beginner) So before I take up all my space trying to be PC, the question to experienced fighters is: x_l-_m-_cx x=two fighters;l=longrange;m=middlerange;c=closerange and the-=that fuzzy line between ranges. "How do you train new fighters or students that have not fought before on closing the gap?" I would be especially looking forward to Top Dog and/or Tuhan Mcgrath's outlook (don't mean to bother you guys, just wondering) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 23:54:29 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Viewers' guide to Gatherings and Gathering update A Howl etc: someone wrote: > > One complaint I hear about the all out sparring > > the Dog Bros do(...et al), is that looking to go > > to the ground is a bad idea. This doesn't take > > into account multiple opponents. I have heard it > > said that in Brazil people will stand back and let > > the two combatants duke it out mano y mano. But > > alas, in present day America "spectators" are all > > too eager to get a free shot in... they see > > someone getting the best of their friend and they > > try to even the odds by laying some shoe leather > > up side the other guy's head. Or, they might just > > get involved even if they don't have a friend > > involved. and Grand Pooh Bah Ray commented: > I have no problem with what our Dog Bro. friends do, it has a very > important place in learning what works on the field of battle and > what doesn't. > > But wrt to the above, I -suspect- that most of us are not so > concerned about the dual type fight, i.e. two guys beating the > snot out of each other like the good ole high school days :). The real > concern is being attached on the street by "Bad Guys". Bad guys usually > run in packs, sometimes we don't. Our goal is to survive the attack, > not beat the snot out of the guy, and perhaps his friends. This is > why -I- think going to the ground in a poor idea. You take one down > or one takes you down and then the others get to give your head a few > boots if not a shiv in the back. Work on stand up grappling and avoiding > take downs through whatever means. > > Ray Terry I think Ray's observation is right-- a Gathering of the Pack is a place of learning what works. Of course it doesn't replicate all eventualities and, just like the rest of life, some thought will have to be applied to the experience in order to get maximal benefit! With the Gathering coming up next week, I thought I'd share my perspective on getting maximal value from watching: 1: Although Dog Brothers Inc. Martial Arts hosts the event, please understand that not everyone there has reached the grand exalted status of Dog Brother. A few are worthy but not interested, more are simply earlier on their path. There are a wide range of experience and skill levels, and a wide range of philosophies as to what it all means. Some for example, try to fight as if they had no gear at all on. Others accept the gear and treat it more as a sport. They don't care if they get hit in the face when it doesn't hurt (tougher to do with the old fencing MASKS because they could and did sometimes get caved in-- Believe me on this!) There being no silliness such as "judges, referees and trophies", each is free to draw the conclusions he wishes. So yes of course you will see lots of fights were the grappling happens because of the fencing HELMETS. You will also see skilled fighters closing without exploiting the gear in the slightest. (I once even saw Underdog (I think he was 49 at the time) close without even having to use his stick-- sheer f#$^%&g timing! Magnificent! ) Of course this skill would have been unlikely to have developed in the absence of headgear!!! My own philosophy is to fight as if I had no gear. Although I have submitted opponents with nothing but hand and arm shots, with a rattan stick and gloves, this can be hard to do. My idea of a good fight is to smack my opponent in the hand and head (especially the more vulnerable areas-- placement matters!), close without getting hit, and submit in the grapple. If I can do this against someone who exploits the gear it simply is more of a test of my skills and spirit. If I can do this, I feel that I am expressing all aspects of my game (excluding my anti-grappling game). But if I get hit on top of the head, I know that I may or may not have survived the entry. If I get hit in the face or the side of the head, I know that my odds of surviving the entry were less. I don't stop the fight of course, but in evaluating my performance I know that there is something to work on. 2: Concerning the grappling-- it happens. It doesn't care whether you like it, or agree, or whatever. Your fault, my fault, no one's fault, it happens. If you can't grapple, you have a large weakness as a fighter. If you consider this fighting also as a learning for unarmed fighting, and I do, this is even more so. If you won't learn it because there are situations in which it is not relevant, you have a large weakness as a thinker. You can just as well say to not learn the stick or the knife because there are situations in which they are not relevant. 3: Concerning the question about multiple players: At the last couple of Gatherings we have had the knife fights be 2 on 2. This has been a good learning experience for all players and observers in the power of tunnel vision. In my match, using a tactic taught by Guro Inosanto, I stabbed my partner's opponent in the kidney at least four different times. In other words, even after getting stabbed from behind he was unable to break the hold of his tunnel vision. A valuable experience! As for multiple player stickfights, my current sense of this is that this is not a good idea for Gatherings. The potential for serious injury (e.g. a shot to the spine or back of neck or head) is just too high with the minimal gear where a major tactic is precisely to hit someone from behind. I suspect that this is best experienced with some genuinely protective gear and emotionally mature and seasoned fighters working behind closed doors. 4: I am in complete agreement with Ray on the importance of an anti-grappling game for the unequal number scenarios in the street. In Dog Brothers Martial Arts material in this regard can be found in the Snake Range material which is covered after one can fight competently against one opponent. No point on working more than one if you can't fight one. 5: Also in watching a fight at a Gathering, observers should remember that, especially in stickgrappling range, there are techniques not being taken. Quite often the headgear comes off, by accident or on purpose, and, for example, a punyo to the head would reduce someone's IQ. Stick shots to the face are usually avoided, as is hitting someone hard in the back of the head with a stick. The other fighter can be oblivious to all this and pursue grappling and perhaps achieve a "submission" whereas in a real fight his skull would have been cracked open and his IQ left to run dribbling down the sidewalk. Again, there are "no judges, no referees, no trophies" and it is up to you, whether as a fighter or an observer, what it all means. OK, forward to other matters. The list of registered fighters on our website is somewhat incomplete. All parents on the list will understand when I say that Cindy has her hands full with our newborn son and that sitting down at the computer is not as important so I would like to take a moment to update things a bit. Due to family matters, Salty Dog will not be able to attend, nor will Nick "C-Raw Dog" Sacoulas of NY due to an ankle broken while jetskiing. Salty also tells me he cracked a couple of ribs while mountain biking, but I don't know whether this is just to get me to lower my guard for the upcoming "Santa Fe Invitational Sessions" he is hosting in early November. ;-) List member Richard Killick of England will be coming to play. As for the Gathering, the Catfight is on!!! Linda Weisman (sp?) of Switzerland has arrived and is looking in good trim and moving well. (She is a student of DBMA Apprentice Teacher Benjamin Rittiner who also will be fighting.) She will be fighting Minerva Adams of Hermosa Beach. Those of you who were at last year's Gathering may remember her as the "Black Xena" who came riding in on her horse in full Moorish battle regalia (she's of Moorish descent) and throwing her spear. I went to watch her train her horseback weaponry skills yesterday up in Palos Verdes-- very impressive. She can spear tiny little targets while riding a galloping horse and When we play spear (padded!) she tears me up. Minerva has played in SCA stuff for years and has developed her own inimitable style. Also, as an added plus, she promises to wear her "Red Sonja" chain mail bikini (fans of "Conan the Barbarian" comic books will understand!) The legendary Rod Kuratomi will be fighting. Those of you who remember Top Dog's three part saga of his Pektiti Tirsia to Dog Brothers years may remember Rod as a formidable shinai/bokken Japanese stylist. In the last few days we also have had some large fighters signing up. One is a 6'3" 255lb silat player, and another is 6'4" and 320lbs. As always, it promises to be a great day. All info can be found on our webpage: www.dogbrothers.com Woof, Crafty Dog ------------------------------ From: "Brian T. Henderson" Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 00:58:21 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Multiple Attackers Has anyone ever done real contact team sparring? ....maybe 3 x 3 might be a good starting point? This might make the participants a little less eager to take the fight to the ground. Is there any reason that this isn't feasable? What kind of safety measures would have to be in place? Would it just be a matter of having fighters that you would trust to not seriously injure his sparring partners? Maybe have an official for each pair of fighters to step in? So what do you think.... any merit to this idea? Crafty Daddy... what ye say? ~Kev Kevin, In KAJUKENBO we train for this scenario, in fact, sparring in this scenario (multiple opponents), when testing for your black belt is a must in most KAJUKENBO schools. Since we are trained extensively in ground fighting, it is also a tool available to us, but to tell you the truth I have seldom seen a single defender go to the ground willingly, and when he does, the results are always the same, a quick defeat. Most Kaju practitioners will only go to the ground when they have a buddy watching their back. We also spar in team formations, and you will see people go the ground in this type of sparing. The Sifu who is monitoring this class activity has to be very alert, and he usually has another black belt helping him monitor the action. This type of sparing is called "Kajukenbo Chess". Opposing team members are removed from play when a strike is scored which if done in the street, full blast would have taken him out of the fight (blind siding is allowed!). We haven't done this with weapons yet, but now that you got me thinking... hmm... Hope this helps. Sifu Brian T. Henderson www.cmaministry.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 06:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: eskrima: Villabraille > Largusa is still the first person to demonstrate Kali in a public forum in > the US. Hawaii was not part of the US until 1959. Hawaii was not a state until 1959, but is was part of the US, a terriory of the US. The Largusa claim is unfortunately not provable and as we've seen right here even some in the Villabrille-Largusa klan don't make too much of the claim. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 07:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #386 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.