From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #409 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Fri, 1 Oct 1999 Vol 06 : Num 409 In this issue: eskrima: Philly Area teachers? eskrima: (no subject) eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #407 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #404 eskrima: Re:Ngo Cho Kun "His-story" eskrima: DB Gathering Report Part 2- The Catfight eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mosi Jack Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 11:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Philly Area teachers? I believe this was asked before, but I didn't catch the answer. Is there anywhere to train in the philipino arts in the philadelphia/Camden NJ area? I tried to contact the school listed as being in Philly, but I recieved no response. I also know there's a school in Princeton and in Newark DE, however I don't have a car and each one of these are about an hour away by train (not counting waiting time). Any help would be greatly appreciated. ===== Have a Good Day! Mosi Jack __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Reisya@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 15:04:16 EDT Subject: eskrima: (no subject) Seminar Master JC Cabiero will be conducting Cabales Serrada ng Escrima Seminars in Ft. Lauderdale, Fl in December Basics Seminar December 4, 1999 9am to 12 pm Broward Convention Center Room #305 Advanced Seminar December 4, 1999 5:30pm to 8:30 pm Broward Convention Center Room #305 $39.95 per seminar on or before November 4. $49.95 per seminar after November 4. Privates are also available on Sunday December 5. Call Kimling's Academy of Martial Arts (954) 564 - 3833 for information or e:mail yvonne reis at reisya@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "Gary A. Hudgins" Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 18:07:27 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #407 eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com wrote: > Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Thur, 30 Sept 1999 Vol 06 : Num 407 > > > eskrima: Re: Ngo Cho Kune > > I have a friend in Mobile Alabama, John Graham, who teaches Ngo Chor (Five Ancestors). [This is the way he spells it, with an "r" on the end. I have not seen him attach "Kun" to his style name, but it appears to be the same style or simialar. I will post a little more information later such as his address, telephone number and what ever I can find out about his style. I do know that John's teacher is now from Malaysia, but left China before taking up residence in Malaysia. He may have been a refugee. For what reason, I do not know. My friend, John Graham, runs a martial art / gym studio and is a police officer. Recently John had an article in a martial arts magazine. I bought a copy, but can't remember which one. Could he have been the guy in the South you were refering to? Like I said, I will try and find out a little more information about his style and post it later. I have about a twenty minute video of him teaching a portion of one of his forms, and one of his black belts teaching part of a staff form. Some place in my tapes I think I have a part of one of the two men sets he does. It does look a little like Goju in some of the harder moves. I believe each form (or a lot of the forms) are two man sets. They can be performed alone or with a partner. Gary Hudgins ------------------------------ From: Justo370@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 21:40:04 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #404 In a message dated 9/28/99 10:20:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Subject: eskrima: Re: Ngo Cho Kun Kung Fu >>Anyone have any information on Ngo Cho Kun Kung Fu?<< Check out the following website and ask Master Ray Gelang about Ngo Cho Kun Kung Fu: www.bakbakan.com ------------------------------ From: Kilap@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:58:20 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re:Ngo Cho Kun "His-story" In a message dated 9/30/99 9:49:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I think its quite clear that 5 ancestors is the basis of most, if not all, Okinawan styles. Uechi claims pangainoon but no such style has ever been documented written or orally from Fujian. >> 5 ancestors maybe a good part of the basis for Goju and Uechi but not Shorin and definitely not all Okinawan Karate styles. Pangainoon was just terms (half hard/half soft) describing the art, never given as a name. According to interviews with Kanbun Uechi the art had already split in China. There's more specifics but I digress. Regards, Travis ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 22:42:52 -0700 Subject: eskrima: DB Gathering Report Part 2- The Catfight A Howl of Greeting to All: Dog Brother Gathering Report Part 2: THE CATFIGHT: One of the featured events of the Gathering was The Catfight. I would like to say that I very much appreciate how all the e-mails I have received since and the entries on our guestbook show that our event matters to people. I wish to take the time to share with people how all the catfight came about and what I think happened, and to toss out some questions. Be warned-- its a very long post. From the beginning in May 1989 when I put together the "Rumble at Ramblas" and the Dog Brothers came into being, the Dog Brothers have been about experimentation and innovation. Those of you who have been coming to our "Gatherings of the Pack" for some time know that there is almost always something new or some distinctive evolution. Over the years I have been asked in various ways about the question of women doing this. As many of you probably already know, I have little patience with the Orwellian femi-nazi drivel that is running amuck in our land today. For whatever reasons (a severance from our connection with nature is my thought) for some reason there is this neurotic ideological compulsion to pretend that men and women are the same and have the same nature and that anyone who says otherwise is either moral scum or an atavistic misogynist. Matters of aggression in general and fighting in particular present one the most obvious reality checks on this nonsense and so (of course!) trigger the greatest morally indignant fury. My experience of this is that the same sort of people who want women to be in combat wait until war looks like a video game on the evening news and then want the toilet seat left down so they don't fall in when they sit down. However, when my student and DBMA Apprentice Instructor Benjamin Rittiner of Switzerland brought his student Linda Beisman to a seminar I was doing in England this past June and she asked me if I could set up a fight for her with another woman so she could test herself I was intrigued. Her skills seemed sound, she seemed fit, and her spirit struck me as worthy. So after some thought I decided to see if I could put something together. After conversations with an American FMA martial arts woman fell through, I approached Minerva Adams about doing the fight. Minerva has no martial art training as such, but through extensive years of SCA (Society of Creative Anachronisms) type play with padded weapons (stick, sword, shield and sword, staff, spear) she has developed considerable skills. She is unusually strong, athletic and graceful. She is a skilled horsewoman. I have gone to her training sessions where while at a full gallop she throws a spear at targets and cuts targets with her sword. Using these skills she often plays a "Black Xena" type character she calls "Minerva the Moor" as she works at Renaissance fairs. As part of this she engages in mock combats for the amusement of the crowds. When I see her do her thing, I am reminded of the "Red Sonja" character from the same Conan the Barbarian sagas from which I took the name "the Dog Brothers". She has no real fighting or grappling experience at all. From time to time she has come to play padded sticks and spears with the Hermosa Clan and always does very well and in excellent spirit. I showed some footage of her sparring to Guro Inosanto. He was so impressed that when she came by his school one night to discuss making some padded staffs for him that he introduced her to the class in laudatory terms. Despite her skills and success against us with padded weapons, she had utterly no interest in testing herself with unpadded weapons against men. The idea that a woman should fight a man seemed to her to be quite foolish. For her it was all a matter of Play. But when I approached her about having a fight with Linda she was intrigued. And so the fight came to be. Since we are the Dog Brothers and we have dogfights, and female dogs are called bitches, it seemed like a good idea to come up with another name. "Catfight" seemed like a natural. The fight began with great theater. Minerva rode onto the field in full Minerva the Moor/Black Xena regalia. The crowd dug it as she tossed her spear into the ground at the foot of the documentary crew's cameraman and he jumped back. Whipping out her sword she engaged in mock fighting with Ringmaster Hot Dog and yours truly. Even in fun it is an exhilarating experience to have a mounted warrior with sword come at you! Later in the day I called the women out for their fight. While Minerva was tying up her horse, I moved with Linda a bit to help her get loose and to let the crowd get a taste of her stick skills. Minerva was at her photogenic best in her Red Sonja chain mail bikini. As she was putting on the elbow and knee pads Benjamin noticed she still had her spurs on! This oversight was quickly corrected and it was time. People were into it! Linda is a fit 100lbs and the unusually fit Minerva I would guess to be 125-130lbs. Both fighters were moving alertly and well. I had told Linda during some preparatory training earlier in the week that Minerva had excellent zoning, timing and quickness, but due to her SCA background she had a tendency to stop after scoring a hit and so that regardless of what happened on an exchange, to attack with combinations. And so it was. Linda got in a pair of good hits on the first exchange and the fighters closed. Minerva got a nice side to side standing grapple position and whacked Linda a couple in the belly with her stick and got a strong mount (remember, she's a horsewoman) as she took Linda down. All of this was well received by the crowd in a spirit of appreciation for a good fight with both women showing skill and composure. This is where it began to get weird. Minerva began to shout "Give up or die!" as she sought to pin Linda's arms. Linda, whose first language is Swiss German, couldn't understand her, but after a while managed to reverse and come up on top in Minerva's guard. The crowd cheered. She mostly passed the guard to 3:00 (i.e. almost achieved side control but her left leg was still not quite free of the guard) and went for a submission I had taught her where the right hand (from 3:00, if you are at 9:00 side control it is the left hand) holds the top of the far shoulder and the forearm scissors down at the neck for the submission. It was at this point that Minerva reached with her head and bit Linda in the right breast. This was not apparent at that moment, but review of the video does show it. Linda shouted "No bite!" and cleared her off with a forearm to the face. The fight continued a few seconds more, Linda went for a headbutt and Ringmaster Hot Dog called time. Minerva had her arm wrapped around Linda's head and did not really let go as Linda sought to rise and Linda hacked at her with her forearm as the crowd went "Oooh!" and "Rowwrrr! Catfight!" Linda angrily said "F-you" at Minerva, there were some chuckles from the crowd, and Linda declared to the crowd she had been bitten in the breast and walked over to Benjamin. The mood of the crowd instantly shifted. As Minerva got up she raised her arms and said "I win!" This was not well received by the crowd at all and I commented that "There's no 'I win!' here." A while later she rode out on her horse and was surprised at the boos from the crowd. She rode off. Diana Inosanto-Balicki was there with her husband Ron and offered to take Linda to see a doctor which Linda gladly accepted. That evening as a group of us were watching the Trinidad vs. De la Hoya fight, she allowed me to see the wound and it certainly looked like a bite to me. Not just a nip, it had broken the skin, (I am told that there had been blood). The location was half on the aereola and less than an inch from the nipple itself. The doctors put her on anti-biotics—certainly not somewhere to risk an infection!!! (Subsequent phone calls have been a matter of phone tag and I have no further specifics on the injury.) As I reviewed the video, I was very pleased with Linda's fighting performance and the character she showed before, during, and after and Top Dog concurred with my suggestion that we create a new category in the Dog Brother tribe-- "the Kitties". Linda was pleased and honored to be the first woman member of the tribe and chose the name "Black Cat". SOME RAMBLING RUMINATIONS ON ALL OF THIS: Minerva, in addition to the boos of that day, (which unsettled her) has come in for some pretty negative commentary on our guestbook, in some e-mails addressed to me, and I am told, around the Net as well. In a certain sense, I was very glad to hear the crowd boo her. Biting a breast is not "friends at the end of the day". Nor is crowing "I win!" part of the Dog Brother ethos and I was heartened to see important these values were to our audience. Yet I was puzzled by the contrast of Minerva's behavior and the Minerva I knew. Just the week before the Gathering I had seen Minerva and a male friend of hers, also black, handle what clearly seemed to me to be a racist incident with great class. There is also the Minerva I know who brings a spirit of Play to her sparring with our group. How to square all of this with what happened? I spoke to Minerva about all of this on the phone and at the gym and this is what I think happened FOR HER: Some of you may remember the opening quote from Carl Jung that opens our first video "The idea is not to imagine figures of light, but rather to make the darkness conscious." Minerva was aware of being bigger and much stronger than her opponent and it frightened her to discover that she had a part of her which was both willing and able to hurt another. To use the Jungian term, I think she was conscious of her "shadow" for the first time. Thus, when she attained the mount, she believed that she could smash Linda's face and damage her looks and felt the desire to do so. In a sense, I think it traumatized her a bit. But she did not do so, and reverting to the SCA fantasy fighting knights-in-shining-armor type vocabulary of her SCA/Renaissance Fair experiences called out "Give up or die!" Of course, to the ears at a Dog Brother Gathering this sounds pretty absurd, but I think it is possible this is what happened. When Linda got on top I think Minerva panicked a bit-- as so many of us have experienced early in our grappling experience. She thought Linda was going to do to her what she had felt the desire to do to Linda and, well, did what she should not have done. As for her declaring "I win!" afterwards this too I ascribe to the knights-in-shining armor nature of her performances at Renaissance Fairs. In my perception, her perception that she could do these things to Linda is inaccurate. This does not change however that this is what she believed at that moment. Some people have responded negatively to her costume (she likes strutting in it and thats fine by me) and appearing on her horse and wondered what the hell she was doing there. This is my responsibility. I asked her to show up in character and she did. I thought people would appreciate it, and many, perhaps most, did (at least until the bite) but some did not. Like I said earlier—we're always experimenting. But I do I think I missed that she did not fully understand the fighters' code at a Gathering. Perhaps I just assumed that because she demonstrated the right spirit so well during padded sparring that she understood. Although she had been to a Gathering last year to do a "Minerva the Moor" bit, she arrived on her horse and left when she was done. She's never heard my opening talk, or actually seen a day of fighting. If she had, perhaps things would have turned out different. I also question my identifying the fighters by name and making a big thing out of it. Not only was this a first, but I also wanted to acknowledge Linda for coming all the way from Switzerland and to help Minerva develop some name recognition to help her career (remember, there was a documentary film crew there), but naming fighters is something we have never done with the men fighters at the Gatherings or in our videos and in retrospect may have been a mistake that escalated the ego element to hard-to-control levels. In closing this area of discussion, I want to say that although I think Minerva made a mistake, I stand by her as a good person. For her part, she has no wish to ever do this again. Conclusions and Questions: 1) Both women fought well and I do not rule out further catfights. I remain quite opposed to men fighting women at a Gathering. Any testing of that sort should be done out of the public eye in my opinion. 2) Hot Dog's squeeze Carol made the observation "I don't understand why you guys are so surprised—that's the way women fight!" This is an interesting point. I have heard many bouncers and bodyguards say that the worst fight to break up is one between two women. I have no opinion or experience in this regard but no doubt some members of this List will have much to contribute—Animal? (BTW—congrats man on the marriage thing!) QUESTION: Certainly the dynamics of a man and a woman fighting are different than those of two men fighting—are the dynamics of two women fighting different from either of these categories and if so how? 3) Although our dogfights call for "Friends at the end of the day", we also try to keep track of what could/would happen in a fight without such a limitation. We try to avoid sport techniques that take advantage of "the code". Open guard might work fine in a sports BJJ match, but in the street the guy just might step hard on your d!*k. Consequently one does not see much open guard at a Gathering. In a catfight, my initial impression is that women must fight with additional areas of vulnerability. Comments? 4) And following up on the "that's the way women fight" issue and, like it or not, the importance of physical beauty in the life of a woman, what of the vulnerability of the face to aesthetic damage from cat-scratching or punching? These are genuine questions, and I would be glad for any thoughts and observations. So people, there it is. Woof, Crafty Dog ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 07:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #409 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.