From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #419 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Fri, 8 Oct 1999 Vol 06 : Num 419 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Angles eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #418 eskrima: Angles? We don't need no stinkin' angles! eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #418 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #418 eskrima: Re: confused as to which angle to use... eskrima: BIG JOE, too complex [none] eskrima: Re: Book Title eskrima: Big Joe Please dont be confused [none] eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #417 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #418 eskrima: Children in the (F)MA... eskrima: re book eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff T. Inman" Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:31:31 -0600 (MDT) Subject: eskrima: Re: Angles "big Joe A." wrote: > I know I'm probably going to get burned for this one but I must. Why,why, > why are there so many angles???? To many in my opinion. If you were to learn > even 60 angles wouldn't one get confused as to which angle to use. Too many > options in my opinion. Actually, there's only one angle, but it changes around. Regards, Jeff Inman jti@ncgr.org ------------------------------ From: "Robert Masson" Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 15:18:22 PDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #418 >I know I'm probably going to get burned for this one but I must. Why,why, >why are there so many angles???? To many in my opinion. If you were to >learn >even 60 angles wouldn't one get confused as to which angle to use. Too many >options in my opinion. No disrespect meant but in my experience the simpler >the better. I think twelve is more then enough. The system I study only has >five and I find that to be more then ample. It's like the old saying goes >"The more complex the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain." I'd >like to ask the opinion of other members of the E-D. Please tell me your >opinion on how many is to many or enough and why??? > > Your confused friend in training, > Big Joe Big Joe, I don't imagine you will get plamed here. Your question is a very good one because the angles present a bit of a mystery for students. How are they supposed to memorize all of them and then use them effectively in combat. Short answer is.... You Don't As Rocky very eloquently illustrated in an earlier posting you will not have time to think about strategy and tactics, to play with angle combinations and counter attacks. the moment will be all over you like Flies on Shit and you will either rise to the moment or be caught off gaurd. The angles and all training tools are mechanisms to increase your chances of not being "caught". they are a mechanism to codfy and easily memorize the different ways you can hit a person and (more importantly) organize the different ways someone can attack you. You learn defences against those angles, consciously organizing them as your unconscious mind absorbs them and ingrains them into your reactions. So that someday when you are attacked by angle X your body simply reacts to it. I was always taught not to get "hung up" on the angles. I have at least 6 or 7 different numbering systems in my notes from different instructors. No one is better than another, some are resequencings of the same techniques, others have different techniques. Ultimately I practice them and (here it comes everyone) "Absorb what is useful". I now find that I have a base line of reactions to angles that I use as a default. So when I am learning a new system and the pace overtakes me or I get confused my body reacts to the stick in the default manner. I apologize to my partner and try again to get the new approach but I also am rpoud of the fact that my body reacts automatically even if my head is swirling with stuff. It means I just might survive a real life encounter with some ugly yutz wielding a lead pipe. Regards, Rob Masson Boston, MA ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:58:27 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Angles? We don't need no stinkin' angles! A Howl etc: Joe asked: > I know I'm probably going to get burned for this one but I must. Why,why, > why are there so many angles???? To many in my opinion. If you were to learn > even 60 angles wouldn't one get confused as to which angle to use. Too many > options in my opinion. No disrespect meant but in my experience the simpler > the better. I think twelve is more then enough. The system I study only has > five and I find that to be more then ample. It's like the old saying goes > "The more complex the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain." I'd > like to ask the opinion of other members of the E-D. Please tell me your > opinion on how many is to many or enough and why??? > > Your confused friend in training, > Big Joe A fair question. Like "spending cuts" in Washington, its all in what you are counting and what you are measuring. If for example, we take the downward 8 and the upward 8 and add a thrust in the middle, we have 9 angles. If we put the center of this pattern on the head, the belly/elbow/hand, and the knee well then we have 27. Those of you who have trained with me or attended one of my seminars know what a big point I make about the ability to throw horizontals head high. In my experience MOST (i.e. not ALL) people train with only one center of their basic pattern (usually the belly) and thus do their horizontals waist/elbow high. However they cannot throw a headhigh horizontal worth a damn. Its like a boxer who can throw a body hook, but not one to the head. As most of us have frequently experienced, terminology (and spelling!) in the FMA can be pretty imprecise on occasion and here I think we have yet another example: sometimes the numbers are not really counting angles, but strikes. For example a forehand reverse redondo comes on the same angle as a backhand diagonal, but arguably is not the same thing because it originates on the other side of the body. Ditto the reverse backhand redondo. A vertical shot can be done as a downward witik/abaniko, or with the lead edge of the stick. 3 more angles/strikes to add to the first 9, times 3 for the 3 different centers and now we're up to 36. And what of strikes that strike at the same angle but finish in a different place. I can strike at 1:00 and finish on either side of my body. And so it goes. And what if the angle is the same, but the body mechanics different? A TKD kick and a Muay Thai kick can come on the angle, but clearly are not the same thing. There are analogous differences in stick strikes on the same angle. Yes they may be the same angle, but in the terminologically blurred world of the FMA,(at least when 100 plus dialects get rendered into English) they may be called different angles when what is really meant is that they want the student to distinguish the strikes. Other systems, perhaps yours, will consider anything from 12:00 to 3:00 to be one angle, and it will still be one angle whether it is delivered high, middle or low. The number of possibilities as measured by the other systems however, is much greater than 5. What I am trying to say is that to a great extent it is all, as Juan Matus would say "just a manner of talking". And as for clogging my plumbing, I promise you that when I fight I am not thinking "angle/strike #14 to #9" or anything like that. Woof, Crafty Dog ------------------------------ From: SReiter000@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:11:15 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #418 << < - he doesnt think the silat as a STRAIGHT grappling system is effect against a TRAINED grappler - >> ummm...I hate to tell you this, but silat is one of the few arts I have encountered who can effectively inform an attacker that in-fighting range is not just a small town that you pass through on your way to Grappling Wisconson. In fact, the heavy emphasis on elbows on centerline can do wonders for messing up a grapplers day. And hey, if the guy comes in low, shiloh. >> hi animal - i think you missed the point - elbows ect. are not part of straight grappling - - he's talking about just the take downs and locks ect . - if you re-read the post - you'll see where it says when you add all the other tools (elbows, eye gauge, groin shots, ect.), it tough to beat the silat player. steve ------------------------------ From: SReiter000@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:23:58 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #418 << Subject: eskrima: Angles I know I'm probably going to get burned for this one but I must. Why,why, why are there so many angles???? To many in my opinion. >> hi joe- i think this view is also shared by guro dan which is why we rarely go past 17 in class - up to angle 35 they actually are diff angles - for instances a double hand downward thrust to the center line, strght dbl hand thrust, upwards dbl hand thrust, ect. the rest are pretty much variations of the previous angles - however purhaps the body is in a different position - or for instance think of the posibilites of a forehand and back hand horizontal strike - you have it to the ear, the shoulder, the elbow, the hip, the knee the ankle (if laying down). right there are 10 seperate angles alone, and you havent change you swing "line" at all - it's all about targeting - not so much memerization of a lot a angles as showing you what targets are available and how you would strike them according to where your stick is at in relationship to them, meaning after a strike or counter from you, your stick might end up in a position that doesnt lend it self to your favorite strike - your not always going to be chamber for a 1 or 2 strike ect.. hope that helps steve ------------------------------ From: "Ted Truscott" Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 16:37:40 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: confused as to which angle to use... >If you were to learn >even 60 angles wouldn't one get confused as to which angle to use. Confusion happens when you try to think...practicing angles that you might use naturally once in awhile brings them up into your 'ready-to-use' file and they just come out - if you don't get confused by thinking!! Ted Truscott The Fighting Old Man ------------------------------ From: "John Taylor" Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 17:32:01 PDT Subject: eskrima: BIG JOE, too complex In reply to "Big Joe A." and his lament about the complexity of angles. My experience of eskrima has not made me concerned about complexity... in striking angles, or indeed much else. I feel the training in eskrima is markedly different to other martial arts. To use my own experience, TAEKWONDO. My training in that style consisted of years of drilling of repitive small actions, of not learning new techniques until the previous ones were mastered. But with eskrima, it was a mess. In the space of any training session, my brain would be literally overloaded with information. Any one gathering would consist of instruction in empty-hands, locking, twisting etc... then single stick, double stick, long pole, knife, double knife, stick and knife. And it could be months before I would see any one specific technique shown to me again. It led me to think that what I was learning was not so much a collection of individual techniques to apply in "x" situation. Instead I believe what I have learned is an "eskrima approach"... some underlying concepts/principles that apply to my fighting, both with weapons and without. That understanding I believe allows me not to get bogged down in specifics... what would you do if someone came at you with x in x situation using x action..... I believe eskrima provides you with a mulitude of options to any one situation, using any one of the multitude of techniques, and complex techniques at that. I wouldn't get too worried about the number of strikes. But i'd be interested to hear if other people have the same experience of eskrima training as I have had. Regards, john taylor. From: "big Joe A." Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 13:10:12 PDT Subject: eskrima: Angles I know I'm probably going to get burned for this one but I must. Why,why, why are there so many angles???? To many in my opinion. If you were to learn even 60 angles wouldn't one get confused as to which angle to use. Too many options in my opinion. No disrespect meant but in my experience the simpler the better. I think twelve is more then enough. The system I study only has five and I find that to be more then ample. It's like the old saying goes "The more complex the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain." I'd like to ask the opinion of other members of the E-D. Please tell me your opinion on how many is to many or enough and why??? Your confused friend in training, Big Joe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Luis Pellicer Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 10:09:56 +0800 Subject: [none] >I know I'm probably going to get burned for this one but I must. Why,why, >why are there so many angles???? To many in my opinion. If you were to learn >even 60 angles wouldn't one get confused as to which angle to use. Too many >options in my opinion. No disrespect meant but in my experience the simpler >the better. I think twelve is more then enough. The system I study only has >five and I find that to be more then ample. It's like the old saying goes >"The more complex the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain." I'd >like to ask the opinion of other members of the E-D. Please tell me your >opinion on how many is to many or enough and why??? > > Your confused friend in training, > Big Joe > > More angles means more training, more training means more tuition! You'll be surprised what a simple downward vertical cut followed by an upward thrust can do against ANY angle of attack. (Called bagsak, at least in the Kali Ilustrisimo system) In a book by Paul Vunak, he stated that the JKD man is not concerned with the typical street fighter or black belt. He trains under the presumption that one day he may meet up with a crazed Lyle Alzado (All respect given to the late gridiron star) on PCP. Same in the FMA, you've got some amok coming at you with a bolo you've got your choices: 1. Run like hell. (best option) 2. Shoot the S.O.B. 3. Use your FMA training. Assuming option #3 is your only choice, in the words of President Estrada, "Keep It Simple, Stupid!" (KISS principle) Wherever his attack comes from, drop your blade on it, (while slicing the weapon appendage) and ram your blade into his : (take your pick) 1. abdomen 2. chest (provided you have a good blade) 3. neck/bottom of chin No need for any organized despairs 150 angles of attack. LSPIII ------------------------------ From: Jivita@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 22:22:50 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Book Title In a message dated 10/7/99 1:52:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << >I also have the FMA book and also a book by one of his students which show the >"Inosanto-LaCoste" strikes as: > > >The book also lists strikes for a knife system. > >Regards. > >Jim Lowe >Berkeley Eskrima Club > Can you give us some more info about this book - title, author etc... TIA Jon... >> The book in question is "Kali", subtitled "Il Combattimento Con e Senza Armi" by Roberto Bonomelli. I picked the book up in Rome last year. Regards. ------------------------------ From: Bladewerks@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 22:35:01 EDT Subject: eskrima: Big Joe Please dont be confused Big Joe, You bring up a very good point.With soooo much talk about taking away the non-esentials in combat(and combat training) very few--few indeed---are willing to listen to their comon sence and...... absorb what is useful and discard the rest.a.k.a.--the American way!!!Sorry JKD! Sorry Bruce! We had the notion first!..:)......with all due respect I might add. Its like they are afraid to step on someones toes or hurt someones feelings.Its a good thing Thomas Edison or the Write brothers didnt have that attitude.Plus the fact that most martial artist feel obligated to the Grand Pooh Bahh in the Orient.Perserving a system or style is fine,even necessary, but doont get that confused with learning how to fight with a weapon or emty handed as well. For some reason we Americans just cant get over the enamor of some exotic fighting art. We also have a tendency to over intellectualize... [vastly differant from being intelligent] Fighting/Training to fight is a thinking game no doubt but history is repleat with great warriors who never graduated collage-----or anything as far as that goes.I've seen many--many great Martial artist train eclecticly thinking that they were liberating themselves when in fact they were putting on the chains not only of their chosen style/method but adding the chains of many others as well! "Wing Chun here....Thai boxing here.....Silat here.....Brazilian JJ here" But nary a word about PRIMARY FREEDOM..or the Universal Princibles that run through all systems and styles....I think you get the picture. So Big Joe Don't confused!! -----lol ;) ------------------------------ From: Luis Pellicer Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 10:36:09 +0800 Subject: [none] > >From: AnimalMac@aol.com >Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:58:16 EDT > I've been kind of out of it in terms of who is who in the digest. Are you Marc MacYoung? LSPIII ------------------------------ From: SReiter000@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 02:01:59 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #417 sorry - my girl friend called when i was posting and i forgot something - 17- upward diagonal thrust - starts from your right hip goes across your body ends at your left shoulder - think of impaling your opponent through the nads to right shoulder - *** as your thrusting twist (like your doing the dance the twist) on the balls of your feet - so when you finish the motion, your actually facing to your left - steve ------------------------------ From: SReiter000@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 02:10:48 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #418 In a message dated 10/7/99 2:02:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << From: "big Joe A." Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 13:10:12 PDT Subject: eskrima: Angles I know I'm probably going to get burned for this one but I must. Why,why, why are there so many angles???? To many in my opinion. If you were to learn even 60 angles wouldn't one get confused as to which angle to use. Too many options in my opinion. No disrespect meant but in my experience the simpler the better. I think twelve is more then enough. The system I study only has five and I find that to be more then ample. >> just wanted to add - that guro dan tells of when he went to train with a champion escrimador - all the other escrimadors he trained with advised against it - saying the man could show him nothing - well him being him he wanted as much knowledge as he could and figured the man being a champ surely must have something to offer - well when dan went to train with him he only showed him 1 angle a vertical strike to the top of the crown - dan inquired if the system had any blocks - the man replied no - silly there's no need to block - if a strike comes your way simply evade it and counter with a overhand smash to the head - the moral of the story is if your so skilled - have superior reflexes, reaction, and timing - you can beat (most) anyone - have ever if you dont - the more tools in your tool box - the better equipted you are for different situations - it's like in BJJ - there are your favorite moves, high percentage - bread and butter - and you only use so many in a match - however - what to do when your moves dont work against a certain persons energy - or your caught in something you've never seen before and dont know the counter - wouldnt it be better to have a few more tricks up your sleeve -- steve ------------------------------ From: "Jon Howard" Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:09:02 +0100 Subject: eskrima: Children in the (F)MA... Hi There. This question is openly directed to all parents (whoops nearly typed fathers - doh! *grin*) on the list, but I would be escpecially interested in Guro Denny's response as he is one of the lists newest parents (getting any sleep yet Marc ??? *grin*). What age would people consider right for introducing children into martial arts (not neccessarily Filipino stuff), and more importantly what kind of curriculum / equipment would you teach / use. Would people refrain from the striking arts and punch bags in favour of Judo based "playtime" ??? Or does anyone think that basic striking angles with a padded stick is the way to go ??? Responses people please... Jon... ------------------------------ From: Patrick Davies Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:46:45 +0100 Subject: eskrima: re book There is a book currently available on JKD by a student of Richard Bustillio. Throughout a lot of the book the character pictured is wearing Inosanto sweats. I skimmed through the book and did n't consider necessary for me to have. Can't remember seeing any counts but might be worth checking up on. pat > - ------------------------------ From: "Shawn Albert" > Mr. Lowe, what is the title of this book by one of Inosanto's students you that you are referring to? I would be interested in obtaining this book sometime. Also, would you list the strikes for the knife system? E-mail me privately if you wish. Shawn Albert ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 05:55:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #419 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. 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