From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #420 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Fri, 8 Oct 1999 Vol 06 : Num 420 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Children in the (F)MA eskrima: Knoxville, TN Pekiti-Tirsia seminar Oct. 16th & 17th eskrima: closing strategy??? eskrima: Re: Children in the (F)MA... eskrima: Children and FMA... eskrima: Big Joe & Numbers eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #419 eskrima: angles and children in FMA eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #419 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #419 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #419 eskrima: Re: Children in the (F)MA eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Patrick Davies Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:25:36 +0100 Subject: eskrima: Re: Children in the (F)MA Looked into this with my son and firstly a lot comes down to the kid in question. Perry had watched me from an early age twirling the ratten and kicking the pads. Hes sat and watched me train with some really great martial artists. I have always advised parents to consider Judo as it will give them strength, toughness and a balance that will come usefull in life. For defensive reasons if you watch kids fight in the schoolground they tend to throw each other around a lot. Striking is frowned upon more by the teachers. Due to peer pressure he went to Tae Kwon Do but the instructor wasn't that great with kids so that didn't last. He also lost the superb natural Thai round kick I used to get him to show off with. He still adopts a weird stance which came from that period. (NOT the art but the instructor). Then he went to Judo and would do the kids class before my adult class and he loved it. Perry had some other problems as well which lie behind the fact that I have custody of him. His insecurity would lead him to checking me out to see if I was watching which also meant that at that moment he would get thrown and hurt : ( Therefore he lost interest. The good news is! Hes starting hitting my punchbag with the double stick but doesn't want me to annoy him with correctness. That will come. But I will suggest the judo in favour of striking arts. That can come later. But each child is different and what they want to do will depend on whats going around at the time. Id also wait till they are out of nappies! ; ) pat From: "Jon Howard" > What age would people consider right for introducing children into martial arts (not neccessarily Filipino stuff), and more importantly what kind of curriculum / equipment would you teach / use. Would people refrain from the striking arts and punch bags in favour of Judo based "playtime" ??? Or does anyone think that basic striking angles with a padded stick is the way to go ??? ------------------------------ From: "BILL MCGRATH" Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 17:48:25 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Knoxville, TN Pekiti-Tirsia seminar Oct. 16th & 17th I will be conducting a Solo Baston Pekiti-Disarma seminar in Knoxville, Tennessee on October 16th & 17th. Pekiti-Disarma is a set of 30 disarms, 30 counters and 30 recounters using single stick, knife and empty hands vs. single stick. For more information please contact: Zach Whitson (423) 675-5151 Regards, Tuhon Bill McGrath ------------------------------ From: Drew Zimba Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 06:56:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: closing strategy??? >>> Carlton said: <> How about this premise...if you close and cannot get more than 1 hit you did something wrong. You should have only entered if you can take command. "clean hit and get the hell out of there without getting hit" is meaningless because you can't take the guy out with one hit. 9/10 you will then have to pick your way back in and waste time recovering lost territory and you risk more hits to you as you close again. This applies to sparring etc... Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Redondo Beach, Ca. <<< Yes, but if he means the unpredictable situation of a dark alley at 2:00 a.m. and "get the hell out" refers to putting one foot in front of the other in rapid succession after distracting an assailant, then it's a viable strategy. Drew ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: abass@iname.com Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:57:19 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: Children in the (F)MA... I'm not sure about age. I've a 15 month old little girl and don't think she'll be ready for quite a while yet. Maybe 4 or 5 years old will be right. Depends on her I guess. One thing that stuck in my head from class the other night that I think will "play" well with her or any children is hand sensitivity drills. At my school we do a trapping/sticking drill called Higot Hubud and I think that it resembles the "patty-cake, patty-cake" enough that we'll be training without her even knowing it. ashley ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ All the busy little creatures Chasing out their destinies Living in their pools They soon forget about the sea... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~N.P.~~ ------------------------------ From: Jeffery_Harris@rsmi.com Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:05:42 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Children and FMA... Jon Howard asked.... >What age would people consider right for introducing children into martial >arts (not neccessarily Filipino stuff), and more importantly what kind of >curriculum / equipment would you teach / use. Jon, I have three daughters, now all teenagers, who have been watching my " activities" for years. These "activities" consisted of 16 years of SCA stickfighting, four years of kenjutsu, and just over a year (now) of Modern Arnis. Frankly, I didn't push any of them into learning or studying any combat-related skillsets, because my wife and I had learned through experience that the kids won't learn it if they aren't motivated. That being said, each of them came to me and _asked_ when they were ready to study. However, you can include them in your training and let them know that this is an acceptable part of the culture. For example, one of the ways I used to train with my SCA bastardsword (and later with my bokken) was to get my gradeschool-aged kids to run around the backyard with one of those "million bubble maker" wands and then try to strike as many wind-blown bubbles as possible. The kids loved it, and it enhanced my targeting (and windage!). Another example: Once upon a time, when she was around eight, I was teaching my middle daughter some kenjutsu-related sword techniques (although as I was active in the SCA at the time, these had been modified a bit to be acceptable to SCA requirements). Anyway, I had her standing on a picnic table so that we would be of comparable height, and I was showing her a parry. She had absorbed enough by watching Daddy play with his friends that she not only performed the parry correctly, she used her live hand to punch me in the nose! I laughed so hard I nearly fell down. In summary, they will be watching you a lot more than you realize, and they will be absorbing even more. Don't instruct them until they actually request it, because you will save yourself -- and your child -- a lot of frustration. Jeff Harris JLHOnami@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "Branwen Thomas" Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:46:51 -0230 Subject: eskrima: Big Joe & Numbers We use the basic Inosanto numbering system, and mostly train angles 1-5 (so far), although we've gone up to 15 (I'm still relatively new - only 1 1/2 years in). I also found myself seeing a bunch of different things in a class and then feeling "overloaded" - how on earth was I supposed to figure out what to use when? But of course, after training for a while, my body just does "whatever works". Maybe not as many fancy things, but if I know two techniques and my body does them effectively, then I guess that's better than knowing 4million things and not being able to choose one in time to save my head :) As I tell some of the newer students, there are, generally speaking, only so many ways you can hit someone with a stick - angle 1 punyo strikes or angle 1 thrusts are probably called something else (?) but if the motion/target is the same...wait now I'm getting confused. We are also taught that the motion angle 1 downward slash (right lead) from high right to low left inward, is an angle one whether done to the clavicle or whether on your knees and striking to your opponents knee, for example. then again, this can also be an angle 9 I think....eeek! I guess ultimately the #s are for convenience, but it's really the motion attack/defense that we are learning... 107 angles...??!?!!eeeek! :) jocelyne Roaring Girl * Purveyor Of Fine Books * Beater Of Bodhrans * Smiter Of The Wicked * * Owned By Angus, Most Elegant And Pleasing Of Cats * ------------------------------ From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:55:59 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #419 In a message dated 10/8/99 7:02:35 AM Mountain Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I don't imagine you will get plamed here. Your question is a very good one because the angles present a bit of a mystery for students. How are they supposed to memorize all of them and then use them effectively in combat. Short answer is.... You Don't >> Exactamundo! When people get too tied up into the details they lose the forest from the trees. That's something we as students need to remember. Also, it might help to remember that a lot of the more complicated and detailed stuff is designed less for effective combat and more for keeping students interested and handing over their money for more and more lessons. ------------------------------ From: "Jason Inay" Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 09:02:50 PDT Subject: eskrima: angles and children in FMA Big Joe, The amount of angels in a particular style or system can be daunting at times. You also will notice that there is many times variants on the angles based on method of delivering the strike. And to make it more convoluted you will see variants on ending and starting points for the same angle. Some styles/sytems do this to help you become more familiar with the myriad strikes you may see in a fight and others will do this to increase your repretoire of attacks. You may even find a great deal of variants in your cinco terros system. One observation that must be made is that in most occasions if a style/system does not have a particular angle or method of striking the practitioner has to do one of two things. The artist may either treat the attack as a different angle or method of attack, or simply evade the attack because the style/system has no way of dealing with the attack without barrowing from another style/system. In regards to "take what is usefull", nothing is usefull if you do not have a foundation. A hodge podge menagerie of techniques whether attacks or deffense will do you no good if you do not have a foundation to put everything together, no matter how simple or complicated. On another note. My daughter is 17 months has her own 8 inch purple heart stick and can strike angle one and deliver an awkward front kick. We have just started playing with an angle 1 and 2 siniwali. She has great fun as do I. Hope she sticks with it (pun intended). I, however will not force her, like my father I will let it be her choice. Guro29 Jason Inay Chance favors only the prepared mind..... Pasteur "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Historical Review of Pennsylvania ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:52:08 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #419 In a message dated 10/8/99 7:02:35 AM Mountain Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << i think you missed the point - elbows ect. are not part of straight grappling - - he's talking about just the take downs and locks ect . - if you re-read the post - you'll see where it says when you add all the other tools (elbows, eye gauge, groin shots, ect.), it tough to beat the silat player. >> No I did notice that. The thing is even my instructor admits that silat is marginally a grappling art - something about slamming the guy's head into the concrete and all that. However, that brings up something that I have been having a major problem with on a related subect. To start with understand I spent a year going "oh wow...look at all the implications" of the first silat djuru I was taught. To this day I still sit there with my jaw hanging down onto the floor with all the neat ways you can break people in half. Now maybe it's the way I approach the subject or just the overall way we approach murder and mayham in our system, but I guess the best way to sum up our attitude would be "It's all bunkai" There is no, "this move is this until you are a black belt, then it becomes something else". From the start it is many things and application is kind of up to how you are feeling at the moment. Or actually we do what will cause our opponent the most grief at the moment. (With this in mind do you see why I would have problems with the idea of implying that there is "a straight grappling mode" of silat? Silat without elbows and spiral arm fractures/breaks is like kali without sticks, knives or footwork. Pulling away these elements is just a convienent way to put it into the realm of sport grappling. And under those limited terms, yep, BJJ is the big dog in the yard. However put those elements (and weapons) back into the equation and BJJ becomes a pitbull among wolves, lions, tigers and bears...oh my). But I digress, thus far my contribution to the system has been describing the mental channel most training puts us into as "the valley of thinking" - it may be a big valley, but it is still a glorified rut. And therein lies the problem. I teach through a local TKD school here in Colorado. It's your standard hard, "let's jes bash em onna head" sport fighting style. However I have managed to gather unto me the 'best and the brightest" of the school's black belts. By this I mean I have gotten the people who really want to learn for the sake of learning and expanding as martial artists. Having said that however... One of the major problems I have is getting people to step away from bringing their assumptions and associations over from the other art. Recently I stopped teaching djurus because the students were doing a mental arithmetic that went like this djuru=kata kata= fixed forms, right way to do things, wrong way to do things, please the instructor, get frustrated if you don't do it right, think the instructor will get mad if you don't do it right, moving left or right is important, stress even more, focus on the move, make sure your hand is just right and my all time favorite, a different response for every different attack. In otherwords a legion of associated nonsense. The problem at hand is how to keep students from slipping into these mental assumptions that what I am teaching them has the same associations and implications as what they already know. The best answer I have come up with is to forget djurus for the moment and only focus on the dusars (elements) that make up the djurus. When I think they have those and begin to see beyond kata, I will return to teaching djurus. Anybody have a better idea? ------------------------------ From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:53:36 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #419 In a message dated 10/8/99 7:02:35 AM Mountain Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I've been kind of out of it in terms of who is who in the digest. Are you Marc MacYoung? >> I hope so, I'm wearing his underwear ------------------------------ From: Terry Tippie Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 12:13:02 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #419 >From: "Jon Howard" >Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:09:02 +0100 >Subject: eskrima: Children in the (F)MA... > >Hi There. > >This question is openly directed to all parents (whoops nearly typed >fathers - doh! *grin*) on the list, but I would be escpecially interested >in Guro Denny's response as he is one of the lists newest parents (getting >any sleep yet Marc ??? *grin*). > >What age would people consider right for introducing children into martial >arts (not neccessarily Filipino stuff), and more importantly what kind of >curriculum / equipment would you teach / use. > I'm not a Dad, so I'll provide an observation rather than advice. I spent a lot of time with Chai Sirisute's family when the kids were younger. Ajarn Chai would get down on his knees and work with the kids (little Chai, Alexander and Christopher) on the Thai boxing stance and heavy kick before they could walk. He would pick up their shin and move it in the motion of a Thai kick and then return it to a stance position. It was a fun game of, "Can you kick Daddy?" As toddlers he would have them kick him in the thigh. By age four they graduated to soft Thai pads. This method also produced some headaches, such as the time when little Chai, then four, knocked down and bloodied a much larger six year old with a kick to the face over a disagreement in the GI Joe section of Toys 'R Us. The way I heard it the mom of the six year old couldn't believe such a small kid could do that much damage, and Ajarn Chai turned the corner, assessed the situation, quickly picked up his kid and headed for the hills without further comment. The story is hilarious if you ever hear him tell it. I remember little Chai kicking me when he was five and was amazed at his power. You could take it on your thigh, but it wasn't pleasant. By age seven little Chai's kick would knock you down, and nobody wanted to play that game anymore. But by that time, well, both soft-stick and squirt gun technology had improved substantially... Regards, Terry Tippie Pacifica, CA P.S.: If you ever get to see it, Little Chai's Kabri Kabrong is beautiful. Ajarn Sumai in Bangkok used Little Chai, then 15, to demonstrate and teach the Thai army (which takes KK very seriously BTW). ------------------------------ From: "Katz, Mary Lou" Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:20:43 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: Children in the (F)MA Jon wrote: <> I've been teaching a children's introductory class for a while now, and I find that it's very hard to make generalizations because every kid is different. Right now I've got one 5-year-old in my class who is totally tuned in and doing great, another 5-year-old who can't really do the moves but is having a great time, and an 8-year-old who can barely make it through a class without getting so frustrated he bursts into tears. That having been said, if I had to pick an age to start, I think I'd go with 6 on average. I started my son at 6-1/2 and he loved it and did really well (this was about 7 years ago when the Ninja Turtles were all the rage). As to what kind of curriculum, I think little kids are best off doing non-contact types of activities. Our style is very eclectic -- we do punching and kicking mixed in with some BJJ-type grappling and a smattering of what we call "sticks," using 12 basic angles. I don't start them sparring or grappling right away, because I find that when somebody is hitting you or sitting on you, it's very hard to keep your emotions out of the picture. I know that's true for me, and it goes double and triple for little kids -- when they first get hit or choked, they tend to either cry or get mad. So I spend a lot of time leading up to sparring, doing line drills and slow-motion exercises with a partner and talking a lot about how we're all friends and training partners. We also do a lot of rolls and falls, which most kids really like. As to giving them sticks, it's kind of hard because it takes a while to get good enough at it so that it's fun, and kids younger than 8 or 9 get very frustrated. But we do our best. When they get whiny and say "It's HAAARRRRDDDDD!", I just smile and use a line my first teacher used on me: "yes, it's hard -- that's what makes it worth doing!" Sometimes it even works! Overall, I try to strike a balance between enough discipline to make it feel like "real martial arts," and enough fun to make it . . . well, fun! One more thing: Kids LOVE colored belts!! Our style has SEVEN (count 'em) colors, as well as half-steps (e.g. yellow with a black stripe, green with a black stripe), and while I think it's a little silly, it really helps keep them motivated. Regards, Mary Lou Anything worth doing is worth doing to excess ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #420 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.