From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #425 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Tues, 12 Oct 1999 Vol 06 : Num 425 In this issue: eskrima: kata, djurus eskrima: SEMINAR; BUFFALO, NY; OCT.16TH eskrima: amateur or master eskrima: escrima:various eskrima: Kata/Djurus eskrima: Kata, Djurus, etc. eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gints Klimanis Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 15:24:05 -0700 Subject: eskrima: kata, djurus eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com wrote: > From: John Frankl > Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 13:04:20 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: eskrima: various and sundry > > As for kata, djurus, etc.--If you are alone in the woods, maybe. If you > live in the 18th century and no protective gear or training weapons are > available, maybe. But if you are here and now and have some good partners, > why? Partners that are willing to practice daily are hard to find. > Finally, even if you are alone and back in time, shadow boxing--or its > equivalent with weapons--will always be more real and more meaningful than > a sreries of movements dreamed up by some guy a few hundred years ago to > deal with situations that no longer exist--if they ever did. I can understand why so many people are turned off by kata/djurus. Most clubs simply teach these motion sequences as artistic dances or, perhaps worse, as extended fighting. If you look deeper, you can see that a lot of the katas teach you to practice simple techniques, more as chain of 2-4 part movements. I guess that most of the kata propagators hid or misinterpreted the movements. I may be on 'ludes, but it's easy for me to see the repetition of neck breaks in the traditional kata. A neck break is just as comabtively useful today as it was hundreds of years ago. ------------------------------ From: "tim hartman" Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 15:33:20 PDT Subject: eskrima: SEMINAR; BUFFALO, NY; OCT.16TH WNY Institute of Martial Arts will host a seminar on October 16th featuring Tim Murray and Kevin Neis of Warriors Systems, Inc. Topics covered will be US & British Military Hand to Hand and Asian & European Grappling. This seminar will be geared for street combat. It will be held on Saturday October 16th, from Noon - 7:00PM. The location is the WNY Institute of Martial Arts, 1703 Union Road, 2nd Floor, West Seneca, NY 14224. The cost is $50 by Oct. 12th, or $65 after Oct. 12th. For more information please contact: Tim Hartman (716) 675-0899 wnyima@hotmail.com Regards, Tim Hartman Yours Truly, Punong-Guro Timothy J.Hartman E-mail wnyima@hotmail.com School site www.wmarnis.com/school/ Federation site www.wmarnis.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Bladewerks@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 22:24:39 EDT Subject: eskrima: amateur or master Animal, Exxxxxcellent observation. Thats one of my pet peeves also.Losing the simplicty of the goal.Like someone once said.....before I studied martial arts a punch was just a punch a kick was just a kick.....(i'll skip the middle part)....then after ariving at a certain place........a punch is still just a punch a kick just a kick....all that part in the middle is just to get me back to SIMPLICTY. Punch--Kick--Trap---Rip----whatever is whatever----wherever is wherever----whenever is whenever--leave the test tube in the labratory.....a technique is mearly a means wherby to express my anger,killer instinct,intent to do this dude harm.Then return to the labratory(training hall,dojo,dojang,backyard,multimillion dollar complex,ect,ect) attain some more simplicty through blood sweat and tears(training).strip away.----refine---maybe add--maybe subtract. But ALWAYS simplify.Enter into complexity then return to nature. I hope i havnt waxed to philosophical..:) Djurus--------i see the prob. I dont teach djurus but im familar with the concept.If i did i imagine i would NOT do it in a "classical" method,but approch it as....."this is worth $1.50.....this is worth $5.00.....this here...will get you killed...walk each one through in a non dogmatic fashion.Explaining that these are ROAD MAPS not THE ROAD ITSELF.Value the roadmap,take care of the roadmap,do not lose the roadmap.But these are ONLY roadmaps not the road.Slowly educating the student to not value them as such and at the same time not putting too much faith in anything that is not THE ROAD ITSELF.Mearly a training method to achive my goals. I hope that made sense. Barry ------------------------------ From: SReiter000@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 23:51:38 EDT Subject: eskrima: escrima:various to animal - really enjoyed your post on drilling vs. fighting - well written - - amusing, informative - i must admit i really only know you from the digest, and until now just thought of you as any another dude/poster here - after your last quip's i would actually like to read some of the published material - - really very impressed w/the thought processes - i have only 2 comments about your post - 1) - i personally believe that along with drilling (and i do think it's necessary) YOU MUST SPAR, and at different levels of intensity - - i believe that you should fight @ 80 to 90 % at least once a week (with gloves and maybe headgear and shin guards) and then light spar 1 or 2 more times a week in NHB or THAI - for anyone into BJJ you know you free spar every class - and spar 1 a week w/ either padded sticks or light contact in FMA 2) although i love hard core training i feel sorry for your training partners - - you must go though them (use them up as well as go through them) pretty quick -LOL A comment on kids in Martial arts - while i have none of my own - i have observed many kids classes - IMHO - i think kids should start BJJ first - kids have a natural propensity to roll and tumble anyway - kids naturally rough house by wrestling - look at any species - cats dogs monkeys each - the young always fight/play - i feel BJJ is a better way to go over judo for a few reasons - while the both give good balance - if a fight where to happen its rare that one good throw would end - so why not actually do so real training early - the Brazilians start 4 or 5 years old - and it hasn't done them any harm - as far as FMA - i think thats about the right age - maybe just foot work or something until the are coordinated enough to swing a stick properly - maybe 7 or 8 - i think you can also get a kid kicking early 6 or 7 but have never seen a kid get the hand movement right no matter how hard you try - maybe move him into boxing 11 or 12 Just my humble opinion steve ------------------------------ From: David Fulton Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:51:47 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Kata/Djurus John Frankl wrote: > > >Finally, even if you are alone and back in time, shadow boxing--or its >equivalent with weapons--will always be more real and more meaningful than >a sreries of movements dreamed up by some guy a few hundred years ago to >deal with situations that no longer exist--if they ever did. > > The only thing I can say in response to this is that kata/djuru are about principles, NOT specific situations and were not meant to replace other training methods. If you do them exclusive of other methods and approach them from the "specific situation" POV, what I like to call "fighting by the numbers" (as in painting by the numbers), then they really are worthless but it's your own fault. Respectfully, Dave Fulton dfulton@computerpackages.com Full Contact Martial Arts Association "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." ------------------------------ From: Mike Casto Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 08:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Kata, Djurus, etc. John wrote: << As for kata, djurus, etc.--If you are alone in the woods, maybe. If you live in the 18th century and no protective gear or training weapons are available, maybe. But if you are here and now and have some good partners, why? Finally, even if you are alone and back in time, shadow boxing--or its equivalent with weapons--will always be more real and more meaningful than a sreries of movements dreamed up by some guy a few hundred years ago to deal with situations that no longer exist--if they ever did. >> OK, let me take this out of the esoteric and phrase it in tangible terms. You go to a rummage sale and you find a strong box for sale. You pick it up and you can tell that there's something in it. You ask the person selling it, "What's in here?" and he says, "Probably love letters or something. It's just an old box my Grandpa had." You ask for the key and the guy says it was lost years ago. Now, you can put the box back and buy the zoot suit that you're *sure* will come back into style some day ... or you can fork over the $10 for the box. To me, this is what a new djuru is like. Now, I take that box home and bust the lock. I find $20 dollars and an old rusted revolver. This is like finding the first few applications (not applications useful 200 years ago, applications useful now) in the djuru. I figure, "what the hell" and take the revolver to an antique dealer. He does some research and and finds that this gun belonged to Jesse James and is worth a lot of money. This is like when I go to my instructor and say, "Hey, look at these applications I found." and he says, "Good, now here's some that you missed ... now look at some more, and put a knife in your hand." If learning a form (generic term for all Kata, Djuru, etc.) is just dancing for you, then you're absolutely right ... it's useless for you. If, however, you approach a form in the manner I described above, then not only does it become a good tool and reference manual, it becomes a lot of fun trying to find something else in it that you've missed before. By "reference manual," I mean that, for me anyway, if I have done that form a hundred times while picturing the various applications that I have found, then when I'm teaching and I see a student, for instance, mess up a technique, I can quickly assess where they wound up and explain other options they have at that point. Hopefully I can get them past the mindset of, "Oops, that was wrong, let's start over." and into the mindset of, "That didn't work, what do I have available to me now." =================== Just this guy wrote: << I would be interested in more talk about djurus; I have a basic idea of what they are, specifically frameworks for motion that contain many possibilities for attack and defense, but I wonder if someone could lay one out and dissect it in detail. >> Whew, that's a tall order. I'm certainly not the most ideal candidate for something like this, but I enjoy a challenge :-) OK. Here we go. This is a very short djuru (even as djurus go, and most of them are relatively short when compared with the forms in some other arts). This is Sera djuru #1 from Mande Muda (or at least it's the part that Pak Herman teaches publicly, though I've heard that these djurus have more to them that he teaches privately, I can't attest to the validity of that rumor). So, here are the moves: 1. Step forward with your right foot. Punch horizontal (i.e.: knuckles parallel with the ground) with your right hand and slap your right forearm with your left hand. 2. Hinge your right elbow so that your right fist moves through the space between your left forearm and your chest, simultaneously turn your left hand palm up. Now, your right fist should be at about face level and your palm (if your hand were open) facing you. Now, drop your right forearm into and through your left hand. 3. Punch horizontal with your right fist and smack your right forearm again (you should end up in the same position as step 1). OK. That's it for the mechanics of the djuru. Now, let's pick it apart a little bit (I'm sure I haven't seen *everything* in this djuru, and I don't want to take the time to even outline what I have seen in it, so I'll only outline one application). This is an application that everyone on this list should be relatively familiar with given that it's a Kali flavored application. As your opponent's right fist comes in, parry the punch with your left hand and punch him with your right hand so that his arm is pinned between your left hand and your right arm. Now, gunting and come back through the hole with a backfist (or forearm as was used in the djuru). Now, move your left hand from his arm to his shoulder and slap his shouler while you clothesline him with your right forearm. If you actually play this application out, you'll find that your feet have to move more than they did in the djuru. That's where the langkahs of Silat come in. The djurus, for the most part, focus on handwork and the langkahs focus on footwork. In application, they merge. Rather than go into any kind of lengthy discussion on langkahs, just use whatever footwork feels natural for you. I hope I've done this djuru (and my instructor) justice with this description ... and I hope I haven't bored anyone :-) Later, Mike __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #425 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.