From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #428 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Wed, 13 Oct 1999 Vol 06 : Num 428 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Applications of djuru eskrima: W. Hock Hockheim eskrima: Nietzsche was a fool eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #427 eskrima: re:training children eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #427 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #427 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #427 ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dave Murray" Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 07:01:37 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: Applications of djuru > From: Just This Guy > How does one create a sequence that could be considered > djuru? A djuru is a set of movements that emphasizes what the hands are doing, while a lanka emphasizes the footwork. Any set of movements "could" be practiced as a djuru, the first few movements of a TKD form (but pivot instead of stepping), or the movements of brushing your hair, or the movements from the manual of arms with a rifle, etc. The caveat might be that those movements are consistent with the style that you are studying. Of course since moving yourself (footwork) is probably paramount to your style, the whole djuru idea is in some ways, a violation of a key principle in application. Don't forget that it is a training method. That's why there are forms, so you can learn to put what you learn studying the djurus, and langkas together in various new ways, and see that they can be put together in an infinite number of ways. When you do math problems in school, it is not so you can do "that" math problem again latter in life, but so you can work "any" problem of that type. > What is it that makes the movements applicable > in so many different settings? You are learning to find the principles in movement that can fit into universal categories. The Byzantine arches of "pass the face" is the circle. Target hammerfist, and elbow are hammer and anvil in practice, or perhaps shear in application. The separation of the target strikes is long and short. You learn applications all over the place, look for the universal movement and principle in it, and see how it will transfer to other movements/techniques that share those attributes. > Are there movements that you djust > don't see in the sets due to the specificity of those movements? There will always be tons of stuff that you don't see, or that you forget after having one of those "ahh, so that's there" flashes of insight. That's OK, the important part is to be practicing the movements. Peace and respect, Dave Murray ------------------------------ From: SeiserL@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 10:05:28 EDT Subject: eskrima: W. Hock Hockheim Just spent a weekend in Corona, CA with W. Hock Hockheim. Some interesting drills with a severe focus on "combat scenarios". Personable and knowledgeable. Enjoyed it and will do it again. High recommend. Lynn Lucaylucay Kali/Tenshinkai Aikido ------------------------------ From: Bladewerks@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 10:25:29 EDT Subject: eskrima: Nietzsche was a fool Hey no use getting into to big a discussion on this topic here on ED.But anyone who cant even see the reality of "GOD" cant be too wise.Im not even talking about a specific belief struture but just the fact of Gods' exsistence. Maybe he was "intelligent" vastly different from wise. ------------------------------ From: Ron Levy Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 08:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #427 > >My next question for the list members is if "expert" wrestlers only use a > >handful of tech. or moves why learn hundreds? Why not just practice six > >moves to perfection? As other people have said, what happens if you come up against someone who can counter your six moves? If that's all you have, the fight is over. Another point in the same vein>. What do you do if you come up against someone who has specifically studied YOU? If someone is 'scouting you out' to watch your fighting style, and figure out a tactic against it? Admittedly it happens the most in the professional arena. The most famous example is probably the first UFC Superfight between Shamrock and Severn. After winning by guillotine choke in about 2:15, Shamrock said in his interview, "I studied tapes of all his fights. He always drives someone to the wall, then one arm goes up and one arm goes down and then his neck is undefended." Severn wasn't very happy to hear it. But that's what happens to someone who always fights the same way. In the rematch, Severn came in with very different tactics. - -Ron Levy ------------------------------ From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 11:58:52 EDT Subject: eskrima: re:training children In a message dated 10/13/99 7:14:56 AM Mountain Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I wonder how many of us are the same way with our families or friends. I know I am. I want to protect them and want them prepared to overcome a violent assault. However, I cannot inject them with my "street experiences". >> On that one I do have a suggestion that seems to have helped a great many people in this very situation. Have them watch my video Safe in the Street. It has some sphincter clenching reenactments of criminal violence and how fast it can go down. (while filming we even fooled an off duty cop who thought he saw the real thing happening until he spotted the camera). It is not a self-defense tape it is an awareness tape that shows you exactly where you don't want to be. I like to tell people it helps them get in touch with their feelings -- namely that nasty little feeling you get in the pit of your stomach when someone is trying to move into position to bushwhack you. The thing about this tape is it's not Hollywood fantasy violence. Right there in front of them, your people will see a reality that the monkey brain recognizes and goes "YIKES!" Once they see this kind of violence, the idea of not walking into a dangerous situation takes on all kinds of appeal. One thing that I can tell you from personal experience is that being in a relationship with a non martial artist can often have a detremental effect on you trying to tell your loved ones how to be safe.They love you, but that part of your personality isn't something that they are really comfortable with. Most people are in serious denial about violence and you harping on it can most often result in the eyes-rolling "It's just dad being paranoid again" reaction. Remember though, these people see you put your pants on one leg at a time every day and therefore it is kind of hard to be an expert in your own home. You show them the tape and say...this is what I have been trying to tell you and you'll get a totally different reaction. Like, "my dad/husband knows this stuff? Kewl" ------------------------------ From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:11:10 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #427 In a message dated 10/13/99 7:14:56 AM Mountain Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << let's see you dissect it AGAIN in a different way. What other applications can you see out of thatmovement set? >> That's not my problem. I sometimes want to pick up and opponent and have him attack me again in a totally different way just to show him how the same move can work in other ways. I mean "Isn't that's kewl!?!" I do extensively work on doing the same technique against different attacks just to show the students how it works this way under these circumstances and works that way under others. And you know what question I get asked most? "What did I do wrong?" "AAAARGGGGH!!!" Kiddies listen up...if he does this and you do this move, this will happen. If he does that and you still do the same move, something different will happen. There is no right answer. There are several right answers. If you didn't get hit you did it right. Apparently this concept of non-Aristotlian, non- binary logic is confusing to many hard stylists. ------------------------------ From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 13:33:24 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #427 In a message dated 10/13/99 7:14:56 AM Mountain Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << There are things which I saw when I was young that I threw out but now I adopt and treasure. The way you perceive things changes as you learn to see things from wider angles. This is one of the things that I hear from the Inosanto tribe and I embrace it fully. >> In theory I agree entirely, however I have some reservations about how that is put into practice. Much of what is taught in the MA is not relevant to the student's needs, but rather to what the instructor thinks what the student needs. When I was a young man, my only concern was not to have my guts spilling out in the streets of LA. I went into the martial arts with the sole focus of learning combat applications. The instructors however wanted to teach me the Arts. Now I will freely admit that I field stripped the hell out of the arts I learned. To this end on many things I threw the baby out with the bath water. I had no interest in the art and sophistication element. And as for the Inasanto tribe, Hawkins used to have a studio with him on Venice Blvd. There were enough of JKD players around that you couldn't throw a tonfa without hitting one. Maybe it was the tribe of the time (early eighties) but when I'd come limping in from having crashed through a door with a 250 biker trying to eat my face that weekend, I would get a little testy with their "we have the invincible martial art" attitude. You could be as sophisticated as you want, but it was only the timely application of a half filled metal trashcan that slowed down that drunk biker long enough for me to beat feet. Maybe if I had been smarter and picked fights with martial artists instead of bikers, gang members and construction workers I would have come to appreciate the more sophisticated and refined elements of the martial arts earlier in my life. Much of what I have come to appreciate these days as sophistication is what I call the "old fart" elements, these are the aspects that allow me to deliver maximum aggrevation to my opponents in the easiest, simplest and by default, fastest way possible. In other words, how can I put an end to it before this young buck's muscles, better aroebic capability and stamina win out? Oddly enough, it wasn't until I got to this place where I was getting older and slower that I could begin to see the benefit of much of the stuff that I had thrown out earlier. What is now amazing to me is how closely the situation is summed up in the mathamatician's statement - "The solution doesn't have to be beautiful, but if it isn't beautiful then the odds are it isn't the right one" There is a beauty and sophistication of movement that comes from not using muscle. However in the west we tend to overly rely on muscle to achieve our ends. If you can get someone past that and show that these moves deliver more force than their might thews can ever deliver, I think you will be amazed at the lessening of techniques that are thrown out by your students. In all honesty, the way things are taught now, it takes sticking with the arts for years for some of this stuff to manifest. Most people don't want to wait around that long for a undefined something that will someday make them sit up and go "oh wow!" And I think as teachers we need to be less concerned about trying to pass that on from the very beginning. If somebody walks in and says "I need to learn self-defense" teach it to him. That's what he needs now (and it needs to work NOW, not wait five years before it works). As you're doing so however tell that person, you know this is a doorway into something much much bigger than just hitting someone and he might want to take a peek. At the very least you have given them something that they can immediately use and have planted the seed about benefits beyond their current view. I often say, that people come to the martial arts to learn self-defense, but they stay for other reasons." Ever wonder why so many people start the MAs and then leave frustrated and disgusted? It's because they aren't getting what they want. Now you can go out and read that guy in Black Belt magazines column about how to keep a school running or you can give people what they want (not what you want to give them). You give them what they want and you can't chase them away with a stick. As the years progress, then start giving them stuff that will make them sit up and go "wow" ------------------------------ From: "Jeff T. Inman" Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 11:59:11 -0600 (MDT) Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #427 John Frankl wrote > Jeff Inman wrote: > > think a more accurate translation would be "that which does > > not destroy me makes me stronger". Nietzsche was a wise dude. > > Still wrong. And he still was talking about the mind, not the body. Think > blades and heavy flat sticks made of tropical hardwoods. Think torn ACLs > from heel hooks, and dislocated elbows and shoulders from arm locks. All > of these things may leave you "not destroy"-ed, but stronger????? Seems to me that these weapons (and perhaps these injuries) may destroy you or may make you stronger. If they destroy you, they can't make you stronger. If they don't, then they can. N is making the strong assertion that "strength" specifically derives from struggle and pain, i.e. if they don't destroy you, then they *will* make you stronger. Since it's clear that a torn ACL won't make you a better athlete, we might suppose that either the ACL injury counts as a kind of "destruction", or that "strength" is more complex than athletic perfection. It may even be that struggling with such an injury could give you insight that would indeed make you a better fighter. As usual, Nietzsche provides more in the way of fruitful questions than trivial answers. I suppose it looks like I jumped on this after Marc noted my study in philosophy. BFD. (Who cares?) But, hey, we're talking about Nietzsche. I think N is incredibly rich with questions and challenges, like an onion (as a friend of mine puts it) that always reveals deeper and deeper layers. Since he is so commonly misunderstood as a macho proto-nazi (nobody who has really investigated N takes that claim seriously, btw), I find it hard to resist stepping in to make this point. [Ray: thanks for indulging this. It's not exactly FMA, but I think it really is relevant to martial arts. I won't wear it out.] > Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of both Nietzsche and Jung. I am merely > questioning the facile and uncritical application of an aphorism. Then maybe you should investigate the thoughtful applications? > As for kata, etc., I am not denying their value absolutely. I would merely > say that spending time on them that could be spent on other things might > be a poor allocation of resources. Boxers, Thai Boxers, wrestlers, > Brazilian jiu jitsu practitioners--what do they ghave in common? Two > things--no kata and the ability to fight. Do the math. I agree with you about this. I just don't see how you think the aphorism offers a contradiction. Seems to me that it makes the same point. Jeff Inman jti@ncgr.org ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #428 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.