From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #429 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Wed, 13 Oct 1999 Vol 06 : Num 429 In this issue: eskrima: Zone article eskrima: Another djuru application eskrima: katas vs. shadowboxing eskrima: Re: Forms and all that other stuff... eskrima: Too many/not enough moves & Being Scouted - Commentary eskrima: Re: Kata vs. djuru yada eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SeiserL@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 14:46:54 EDT Subject: eskrima: Zone article An excellent article appears in the November 1999 Martial Arts and Combat Sports magazine by William D. Horton called "Entering the Zone: Martial arts, hypnosis, and rapid learning are a perfect match." Compliments and appreciation. Lynn Seiser PhD Tenshinkai Aikido/Lucaylucay Kali ------------------------------ From: Mike Casto Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 11:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Another djuru application Just This Guy wrote: << EXCELLENT post. Now let's see it again. I think I know the point you are trying to make... let's see you dissect it AGAIN in a different way. What other applications can you see out of thatmovement set? >> OK. Those same 3 moves. This time the guy throws a left hook. Your first move from the djuru becomes a reverse gunting (or "outside gunting as you called it") so your right fist is smashing his bicep area. The second move of the djuru starts now as your right hand slides over his arm and catches his tricep in a cup and you scoop it down and through. Now, catch his wrist with your left hand and smash your right forearm downward into his elbow. The third move of the djuru throws his left arm behind you as you step forward and punch across his chest while settling into a horse stance with your right leg behind him. Now he's ready for a takedown that Bukti Negara refers to as "Kenjit Siko" or elbow compression. By folding your arm and simultaneously driving down through his chest, you dump him over your leg. It's kind of hard to explain, but I hope it makes since. << How does one create a sequence that could be considered djuru? >> Oh boy :-) Let's take a tangent here for a bit. In Silat, there are "bunga" and "buah." These translate respectively to "flower" and "fruit." The bunga is the djuru. This is what is practiced solo and what has been incorporated into a lot of folk dances from SE Asian part of the world. Often, it is run with exaggerated and "flowery" motions. It's beautiful to watch. However, djurus can also be run very tightly and with a lot of intent ... this is beautiful too, but in a completely different way. Running djurus like this begins to approach the "buah" or the fighting applications. Different teachers teach by different methods. Some instructors emphasize the flowery dances and then they refine it down to the applications. Others start with the more precise running of djurus and they show some techniques. However, when you start trying to extrapolate applications, you have to loosen up your structure to find some things. The tighter you run the djuru, the less applications you'll find because you're restricting your movement and possibilities. Funny you should ask this question, a fellow student and I were recently tasked with putting together a form for our school. We're trying to incorporate elements of Kali and Silat into a form that kind of illustrates the "sikal" (hybrid of Silat and Kali) that we actually teach. The way that we started working on it (and a start is all we have at this point) was to take an application. In our case, we did a series of strikes then a takedown and submission on the ground. Then we ran that solo. Then we started loosening up our application structure. What we wound up with was a string of about 10 motions that flow together well, but are loose enough that they can be interpreted several different ways. << What is it that makes the movements applicable in so many different settings? >> I think it's the mindset more than the movements. If you show the same set of motions to 10 martial artists and asked each of them to come up with an application, my guess would be that you'd end up with about 6 different applications and several variations on those applications. When dissecting a djuru, my mood, recent events, recent discussions, etc. all have an effect on what applications I come up with. << Are there movements that you djust don't see in the sets due to the specificity of those movements? >> Of course. For instance, in the djuru I outlined, I'd be pretty hard pressed to find a place to pull a knife out of an ankle sheath (though I could potentially pull one from a waist sheath in motion #2). You can only loosen the djuru up so far without loosing the essence of that djuru completely. << In an outside gunting (inward parry at the same time as backfist to the triceps of the opponent's punching arm) there are numerous possibilities as well. The backfist could be a thumb to the eye if at close range, or fartherout could be an attack to the forearm. Maybe you could even break the wrist or the elbow with this. But I understand that the genericness of djuru goes even beyond this. Care tocomment? >> I'm guessing that I already hit on this point earlier :-) Later, Mike __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Terry Tippie Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:33:32 -0700 Subject: eskrima: katas vs. shadowboxing >From: John Frankl >Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 03:27:05 -0400 (EDT) >Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #426 > >>I think a more accurate translation would be "that which does >>not destroy me makes me stronger". Nietzsche was a wise dude." > >Still wrong. And he still was talking about the mind, not the body. Think >blades and heavy flat sticks made of tropical hardwoods. Think torn ACLs >from heel hooks, and dislocated elbows and shoulders from arm locks. All >of these things may leave you "not destroy"-ed, but stronger????? > >Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of both Nietzsche and Jung. I am merely >questioning the facile and uncritical application of an aphorism. > (Shrug) Not interested in this part of the thread. > >As for kata, etc., I am not denying their value absolutely. I would merely >say that spending time on them that could be spent on other things might >be a poor allocation of resources. Boxers, Thai Boxers, wrestlers, >Brazilian jiu jitsu practitioners--what do they ghave in common? Two >things--no kata and the ability to fight. Do the math. > Boxers and Thai Boxers do a lot of shadow boxing. So, how does a kata or a djuru differ from shadow boxing? I think your boxing will get a lot better if you slow down and work carefully for form and quality. I look around the room at Fairtex sometimes and think that people would do well do slow down and work a jab, cross, hook, cross combination with the same care as a Pentjak guy works djurus. I know that my Muay Thai and boxing got a lot better after I started slowing down and really trying to understand the details of the form & body mechanics. Very slow shadow boxing helped me to generate more power and helped my structural speed due to the elimination of uneccessary motion. It is easy to concentrate so much on aerobic & anaerobic conditioning, power and combination speed that you miss out on the correct form. Basically, it's fun to sweat and work yourself into the dirt. But if you always shadow box for speed you're missing out. I think of it like shifting gears, i.e., don't drive around in 3rd gear all the time. When you see a big Muay Thai class it is easy to see the people who cared enough about the motion to slow things down and get it right. Regards, Terry Tippie Thai Boxing Assoc. of the U.S.A. & Fairtex Muay Thai Academy ------------------------------ From: "Joshua Hutchinson" Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 10:08:39 PDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Forms and all that other stuff... Hello all! All this talk about forms got me thinking... Up until a few years back, I practiced a lot of forms in both my Tae Kwon do and Taiji Quan (Chen, Ch'ang, and Yang styles) training. All of the sudden, I got this itch to check out the other side of the tracks (formless MA's). After training in JKD (PFS) and Inayan Eskrima for the past three years, or so, I realized that in actuality I hadn't really learned anything new, just a different way to beat the same old drum. (Take note that I'm not trashing FMA's or JKD, I'm just sharing my opinion!) My old Sabunim (forgot the sp? on that one!), Aram Almanieh told me that sooner or later you will find out that all MA's lead to the same place. Now, after being built up and broken back down so many times I realize that he knew exactly what he was talking about. Every once and a while, I think of getting back into my formal MA's (kind of as a way of cross training), but between school, work, and Eskrima it doesn't seem possible. Hmm..., and as far as forms go, I think they are important for teaching new MAist uniformity and solidarity. To add to that.., just because a school teaches forms, that doesn't mean that they don't teach practical streetfighting methods as well! ( I know I learned plenty in both TKD and Taiji Quan.) Well, that's it! Thank you for your time... I wish you all kick @$$ training! Mabuhay Ang Eskrima! Fry Bread ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com ------------------------------ From: Eric Knaus Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:47:35 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Too many/not enough moves & Being Scouted - Commentary From Ron Levy >As other people have said, what happens if you come up against someone who can counter your six moves? If that's all you have, the fight is over.< Yes and that would really suck! Which is why I'm a proponent of practicing a few more techniques than you will probably ever use. I still practice things that Tuhon Gaje showed Tom B. and me years ago even though at the time I was internally rolling my eyes thinking "When would I ever use that move?" It wasn't until much later that something opened my eyes (usually a stick to some part of my body) that the possibility of that motion being useful would get past my utilitarian nature. Just because its application is not immediately evident doesn't mean it can't help you down the line. However, that being said, when it comes to fighting, form follows function. If you are training for the purpose of fighting another martial artist, my next bit of advice is to develope "your move" - something you can do that will inflict pain/damage/concern from a variety of scenarios. If you have two or three (let alone six) of these type of moves I seriously doubt you are going to find many fighters who can handle them in the fluid and concurrent manner in which you'll deliver them. You'll lose to that guy only because he was able to deliver his "put away" shot(s) before you delivered yours. >>Another point in the same vein>. What do you do if you come up against someone who has specifically studied YOU? If someone is 'scouting you out' to watch your fighting style, and figure out a tactic against it? Admittedly it happens the most in the professional arena.<< That's the nature of technology today and the price one pays when stepping on the field of battle for all to see. I know from personal experience that most of the stick fighters I face for the first time nowadays have already seen all or a portion of "Real Contact" and have formulated a plan to counter this or that. Case in point was at the last Gathering when I went with Jim Kelp who made a point of not engaging me stick to stick but closed and took the fight to the ground at the first opportunity (which was within the first 25 seconds!). Good idea on his part and while I might have been on top of him for most of the fight, I was not able to hit him with either a stick or fist and was scrambling to recover my balance during the whole skirmish (he twisted and bucked like a 6' Mako shark on a line!). On the one hand, this puts me at a disadvantage since they have a good idea about my strengths and preferences, but on the other hand it keeps me honest and forces me to deal with their game on the fly which is more realistic in a "street" sense - I feel that we both benefit. ------------------------------ From: Kilap@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 20:05:47 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Kata vs. djuru yada Animal writes "What did I do wrong?" "AAAARGGGGH!!!" Kata/djuru though different, are catalogs of motion, motions that have many applications. I don't see what is difficult to understand there. The problem Animal mentions seems to me to be one of the "hard stylists" brainwashed mindsets. I.e this is the only correct ("read exclusive one and only" until grand wazooh changes it that is) correct method. Rubbish. There are, however few it seems, decent Sensei's who will urge students to explore multiple applications of kata bunkai etc. But in anycase forms are good aerobic, mental, visualization exercises but are a far cry from fighting and I concur with this previous post... > As for kata, etc., I am not denying their value absolutely. I would merely > say that spending time on them that could be spent on other things might > be a poor allocation of resources. Boxers, Thai Boxers, wrestlers, > Brazilian jiu jitsu practitioners--what do they ghave in common? Two > things--no kata and the ability to fight. Do the math. Abridged djuru or total number of djurus for that matter is not as important as having multiple functional and efficient applications that can be done in "real time". The cool stuff while tasty is just a side dish. One plays to find "truth", but alot depends on the mindset of the players. Regards, Travis ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 17:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #429 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.