From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #435 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sun, 17 Oct 1999 Vol 06 : Num 435 In this issue: eskrima: Slow boxing and few strikes eskrima: Re: More on Inosanto book eskrima: Death by training eskrima: Any information on B.I.F.F.? eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #427 eskrima: foxes and ... oh my eskrima: when is it to much... eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cory Eicher" Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:48:42 CDT Subject: eskrima: Slow boxing and few strikes =============== Terrie Tippie wrote: I think your boxing will get a lot better if you slow down and work carefully for form and quality. =============== I completely agree with this sentiment. In fact, I have found that the more slowly I can do something and still have it feel 'right' the better (faster, more powerful) I will be able to do it at speed. Also, when I have trained something very slowly, particularly transitioning from one structure to another, I tend to find myself using those bits more naturally. For example, I've trained a cross block to a strip about 5000 times, many of those at EXTREMELY slow speeds, and I find myself using this without any forethought. It just happens (which is sort of the idea). Another example of this sort of training can be quite easily seen outside the MA world. I drive a stickshift, and have been driving stick since I got my driver's license (sp?). At this point, I don't shift with any thought. I just shift when the RPMs of the car sound right. Onto my next topic... I know I didn't make this clear during my original post concerning my wrestler friends, but I like to clear it up now. I said that I only saw them use a few moves MOST OF THE TIME. When two really top notch wrestlers had a match, particularly if they had wrestled before, all sorts of obscure stuff would happen out on the mat. This is, in my experience, the distinction between good wrestlers (and, I would guess, stickfighters, fencers, tennis players, etc.) and great ones. Good wrestlers either are competent in several different things and use them all fairly well or are dominant with their few select moves. Great wrestlers are dominant with 'their' moves or combinations of moves AND have a selection of other tools available to use when they can't make their first choices work. I guess the point is, it is extremely important to train a few functional basics (upward and downward X, jab-cross-hook, rear leg Thai, whatever works) until they are second nature. On the other hand, it is also important to have alternatives to choose from that are familiar enough to use when those basics don't work. Anyone have opinions along this line? Cory ========================================= Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Sidney525@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:04:21 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: More on Inosanto book Maybe somebody on the list with good connections to Guro I. (Marc Denny, hint, hint or maybe one of the other West Coast based subscribers ) can find out what is the status on getting this book reprinted. If it is a matter of showing that there is interest in it, we could probably generate proof of that by e-mail if nothing else. For myself, I could stand to get another copy. Sid Stein FKEAC ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 15:53:45 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Death by training A Howl of Greeting to All: Toby asked: > I have been watching this thread for a while and had to ask: > How do you spar at 80-90% with sticks? I have no problem grappling at > that level, even boxing or maybe Muay Thai (though that would get damaging) > but I for one, can't afford to break or even severely damage my hands > during practice. The description that AnimalMac gave was very clear and > made a great deal of sense. I can't see ever feeling safe enough to practice > with him though. I agree, you can't practice striking the arm instead of the > temple (as an example) or move from practice to KILL mode easily. So HOW > do you Practice this sort of thing without killing off all your training > partners? , , , > > They also all are generall based on moves where a single strike probably > won't kill you. That doesn't work as well if you are dealing with moves like > "ripping someone's throat out", or defanging the snake (by breaking their > nose, arm, hand). I highly respect the Dog Brothers for being willing to > take their practice to that level. I am curious how they prepare for it > though. > > No offense is intended, but please explain how you practice pulling out > all the stops and killing your opponent. The hair of the dog that bites most people in the tail is Ego and the attendant tendency to accelerate and escalate. This is most present when one or both players believe and/or desire to establish hierarchical issues between them one feels the risk of hierarchical loss as a result of how he's faring. When however it is understood by to both what the hierarchical state of affairs is or when it is agreed between them that the session determines nothing, then both can settle into a state of Play-- which is how you should fight anyway. Under the umbrella of the Dog Brothers tribe, there are various clans. Apart from my role as Guiding Force of the tribe, I head up the Hermosa clan for example. Salty heads up the Santa Fe clan. C-Raw Dog heads up the New York clan, etc. Each clan has its own way. Perhaps Salty and C-Raw can comment on how they get handle things with their respective groups? In the Hermsoa clan we have a modality called "No Wind". Remember too that there is personal rapport within the group built by and based upon drills which allow for "semi-sparring" within the context of the drill. In No Wind you can do whatever you want as long as you don't swing the stick so fast as to make the wind sound. This allows everyone to stay relaxed and work on totality of composure and flow. When both are relaxed with their eyes open, strikes can go at and hit the target in combination and the composed recipient can deal without damage or ego flares. The learning in the state of Play is of a different order and learning to stay composed and flowing whether one is the hittee or hitter makes for a truly valuable training for getting ready to really air it out. Understand too that the group I am talking about is of above average seasoning: Dogzilla, Surf Dog, (both are Original Dog Brothers) Shaggy Dog, Underdog, Hot Dog, Pappy Dog, True Dog, Dog Tony, Garrulous James and Top Dog-- who does a drive-by when the mood strikes him. Woof, Guro Crafty ------------------------------ From: Jari Tuomivirta Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 22:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Any information on B.I.F.F.? Hi there! I am new to this group. Does anybody here know anything about the B.I.F.F. Escrima? I believe the initials stand for 'British International Fighters Federation' or something similar. I know they use a structural ranking system, but that is all I know. I have found nothing about it on the web. Can anyone help? What kind of a style is it? - -- JT ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: SReiter000@aol.com Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 01:57:40 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #427 << ave only seen a little BJJ and its not available in my area of the world. Judo is. With the kids they are not allowed chokes or arm bars. Mainly holding down techniques and a lot of the throws. I mean I hardly trust adults with arm bars so I'M hardly going to trust a child. How does BJJ compare with this? >> Hi - Patric - sorry, it's been a little while since i read all the ED's piling up - the kids actually do arm bar (from mount) and some simple chokes- however they're taught control and are much better at not hurting their partners than most adults - ( i think it might? have something to do with the flexibility kids have) have never seen or heard of a kid getting hurt - but adults always get hurt (broken fingers, springs, hyper-extentions ect..) - i have seen them tell kids to arch when applying a arm bar - but haven't seen them show how to apply a choke - just get into the position but not really choke them out - it's too bad that there's no BJJ around - maybe if you combine greco roman wrestling and judo that will give them a good start - i know as far as myself and other people with wrestling backgrounds that it goes along way - you learn good basing and control - the submissions can come latter - even from video's if you have a good foundation - of course it would be better to start early but if you cant there are some good alternatives - hope that helps steve ------------------------------ From: tenrec Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 08:08:58 +0100 Subject: eskrima: foxes and ... oh my Natahey all! Ted Truscott wrote: >>knew but one wiley old dog had been learning all his tricks over the years >and kept the young ones to the task and sniffed him out to the delight of >the hunters who shot him. Specialist 1, generalist 0. Good story Mr. Truscott! I love stories where guys go lookin' for foxes and wind up nailin' pussy... but I digress... Someone mentioned (in an earlier ED) that TITANIUM arnis sticks were available...can anyone tell me where they are available and how much per? Also if collapsible versions are available... One other q: Just saw the EDGe2 website, and they advertise aluminum training knives...does anyone know if their folder simulators acutually fold? Has anyone tried these out yet? Feedback please... TIA tenrec tenrec@avcorner.com ------------------------------ From: Rocky Pasiwk Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 23:01:09 -0400 Subject: eskrima: when is it to much... The wise OLD Crafty one wrote: > conversation where the ever loquacious Rocky will usually chime in with > something about JKDC and talk about how few well-honed tools and techniques > he has and how his former JKDC trained students are blinded by his > brilliance. I could be wrong, but I suspect that Rocky may be > underestimating how much he went through to get to these techniques and > understandings. To become a finely chiseled statue like Rocky, you first > need a big rock.(pun intended ;-}) with which to work. There are many more > than one way to skin a cat (or to spell a word if you read "The Book of > Rock". ;-} ) and to know which of the different ways to beat a man work > best for you, you have to know more than one. > > Well where do I start, as most of you know we have this conversation at least once a year. First Crafty, as you know I usually agree with you. However I think this time you a have missed the point. So sit boy, heel I'm gonna have to edjuc...edgima..edukat... teach you something. We both agree that as a martial artist you need to trim your method and mold it into an effective tool, correct? Was this not what Bruce was trying to do, and is it not what the Katch fighters 100 years before him did? My point has always been have a good amount of techniques, that become a part of you, so much that they can actually be modified on the fly. Like climbing a flight of stairs if the next step is slightly higher than the last one you don't stop and ponder how you are going to take your next step, you simply adjust as you go never missing a step. This is how fighting works too. I have never been against learning something new, but first I try to see if my existing move will work first, as an instructor who has already gone through the weeding out process don't you feel it is your duty to help students eliminate as much of the useless stuff as possible, surely you can't mean for them to go through what you had too, at least not the useless stuff you may have gone through. IMHO I think instructors over the years have failed their students, by creating arts that are so vast and complex, that the students become a walking encyclopedia of knowledge, most of which they can't execute properly. Just keep it simple. Like I said in my earlier post, the Bruce Lee fighting methods are about the best books I have ever read on fighting, they are what I think Bruce was striving for, simplicity and effectiveness. In a real street fight ( and I don't know how to prove this to people. other than to tell them to go to the worst part of town and put your skills to the test) I guarantee you the umpteen angles of attack and multi zoning and what not will NOT be running through your mind at that instant in which you begin to rock and roll nor will you have time for complex moves or strategies. As you say their are many ways to beat a man, But their are also many ways to get beaten, and the worst way of all is by your own training. When learning their is always going to be exceptions in the beginning, you learn one way until you can handle a better way. Which is all the more reason not to bombard someone with to many techniques. Here is an example, what the hell the JKD guys hate me I might as well add the PT and Modern arnis guys to the list. It has been and still remains my opinion that if you have 2 untrained average guys with moderate athletic ability, you train 1 in PT for a few weeks and the other in Modern Arnis for the same amount of time and then let them have at it, I will always feel safe putting my money on the Modern Arnis man. Why!! because Modern Arnis is a simple direct very easy approach to learning stick self defense key words being stick self defense. Now 6 months down the road I will always put my money on the PT man. Why you ask? well its because PT is a more honed intricate stick fighting art that is designed to turn you into an Eskrimador, with the assumption that you will always be fighting another Eskrimador of equal or superior skills, so it is the little things that you must train so they become second nature to you. And its always the little things that take the longest to assimilate into your natural movements. Most of my PT buddies agree. They also ( as do most of us ) learn as they get older that much of the stuff they thought was different really wasn't its just a modified version of what they already know. And as Top Dog had mentioned sometimes you learn things that you say oh boy this will never work, I'll never use this. Then one day poof their it is that tech or movement that you thought you would never of used, ends up being the only thing that will work at the time. But here's where I think you can't figure out where I am coming from, wouldn't it have been nice if your instructor would have explained it to you as you learned it. So that time could be better spent. Now before you on a tangent about giving everything to your students and not allowing them to discover for themselves, I'll agree that a student needs to learn creativity, but there are other ways to do that than constantly adding this that and the other, what was it your main man said "a classical mess" Well what's the different between a "Classical Mess" and an "Accumulated Mess" they are both messes!! IMHO in the beginning keep it simple and effective work the body mechanics, make sure students know the difference between being connected and not being connected, give basic, but effective fundamentals that build proper body mechanics. Cause lets not forget that while Bruce was always looking to simplify, he did have a classical back ground with certain basic fundamentals that created his power and understanding of mechanics. Then when he reached a fairly high level of effectiveness, he began to add more by making his art less. So if a student is taught simplistic but effective fundamentals that build mechanics and a good understanding of what works and what doesn't he will make the proper adjustments, and refinements to keep any new material he adds as simplistic and effective as possible. And lastly why is it every time I mention JKD/C even in a good way it gives everyone such a woody. All I did was state a fact, my JKD/C students ( who are very well read, or educated if you will ) where surprised that I didn't have this incredible library full of books and videos as they do. What's the big deal with that statement. Hell while were at it I don't have a business or a law degree, nor do I have a library of books on the subjects. Yet I make lots more money than the average college grad or lawyer running my own business, I have fired a handful of college grads, with business degrees, do to incompetence, and I can make a phone call and have a team of the best lawyers in Michigan at my beck and call. Having a bunch or viewing a bunch of material on a subject does not make you good at it. You know you don't have to walk around with a T-shirt with 17 or 18 different emblems on it to know what your doing. And as far as making a statue, would you rather chisel that sculpture from a rock from the mountain, or a mountain of rocks. We all need to find our way through the paths I just feel that out of common courtesy you should try to clear the path as much as possible for the guys behind you. And one last thing someone wrote that BJJ. boxing and wrestling don't have kata!! This stae is completely false!!! They do not have the commercial katas, but rather the effective katas, in any boxing gym you may find a guy with one arm tied to his side while throughing nothing but jabs with the other. And guess what he's working on?......... His form!!, that's right learning to execute his jab properly by using proper form. This is what I refer to as executable forms. In Cuentada DeMano I teach Tubags or responses, that consist of only 3 to 6 or 7 quick moves to an outside stimulant, this is my interpretation of an executable kata ( something that works) rather than a commercial type of kata designed to teach large numbers of people lots of moves. Rocky Pasiwk ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 07:12:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #435 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.