From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #475 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Wed, 10 Nov 1999 Vol 06 : Num 475 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Berkeley stomp eskrima: Re: weapons an whatnot eskrima: Page 12 of guru dans book eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #474 eskrima: re: dulled machete eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #471 eskrima: Yeek! eskrima: Victor Harris eskrima: MPEG VIDEO eskrima: S.C. PEKITI SEMINAR eskrima: Duty to Kill? eskrima: gene pool cleansing eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #471 eskrima: Seminar eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Ellner Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 12:26:48 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Re: Berkeley stomp AnimalMac@aol.com writes: << what exactly is a berkley stomp? >> >Where you take the head of a downed opponent, put his open mouth up onto the >curb and then kick the back of his head. It busts jaw and teeth. It's brutal >move to say the least and no where legal or justifiable. ....called "curbing" up here in the Great Northwet. It doesn't just bust teeth and jaws. It can (and has) caused death. If you do this the justice system will drop an enormous hammer on you. And you will deserve it. Todd ------------------------------ From: Patrick Davies Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:49:09 -0000 Subject: eskrima: Re: weapons an whatnot From: Todd Ellner > "At the last AWSDA conference I spent an instructive two hours after lunch being told just how hard it is to stop someone by whittling on him. The guy doing the lecturing is an NYPD forensics specialist. " Interesting thing here recently. Im not sure what you mean about whittling but going back to plain simple stabbing. Court case yesterday jailed some bloke for stabbing someone in a nightclub. The fracas happened in the toilet (told you there was value in that discussion!!) of a nightclub between some youths. They all were kicked out and the victim went home merrily drunk. Went to bed happily enough although the head was spinning due to alchohol abuse more than likely. His friends woke up later in the night due to strange noises coming from his room. They went through to find him in a pool of blood. Hed been stabbed three times in the back without knowing it. The perpetrator was caught and yesterday jailed. Now this is common enough and nothing new but it takes me back to a point I made where the actual slashing could actually be the best thing to do. Slashing to the arm would allow the other person to be aware of it and encourage the symptoms of shock to take hold. I presume that not all people who know when they get cut go into shock and so therefore you need to be able to step deeper. Maybe animal can expand on this? But for me the use of the knife would be for immediate effect and not a long term effect as in the example. pat ------------------------------ From: "filipino martial" Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 15:37:39 PST Subject: eskrima: Page 12 of guru dans book http://the-filipino-martial-arts.freeservers.com/ the_filipino_martial_arts@hotmail.com this sight has an email address as well if someone would have sent a letter saying page 12 is not working i would have fixed it should be there now though i have corrected the problme and you will now have page 12 instead of 2 page 11's please email the above address for the sight if any other bugs should arive its not easy maping out and navagating 200 pages your welcome TFMA. and I want to thank again the guy that went through all the trouble of scanning it and putting it on the net. I have been looking for it for years....until now. And if I may point out a very small failure: Page 12 is missing.;-) But nevertheless, thank you very much again. Ludwig ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: LeighanS@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:44:43 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #474 from: leighans@aol.com well, just to be the fly in the ointment (or is that the other way around?).....a piece of wisdom handed down to me from various folks was 'nothing is illegal until you are caught'........always sounded like great words to live by.....considering how draconian the new york legal system is, it makes 'get the hell out of dodge' an almost instinctive reaction......for some reason the legal folks here frown upon people who decide to defend themselves.....and while we are speaking about the rotten apple and law types...for those who think leg shots and other 'less lethal(?)' actions are possible....think back a few months about the incident that occurred in the bronx....police fired 41 shots and only 19 hit the suspect......dont know about you folks,but i dont like those stats......in fact, it makes me feel sorry for innocent bystanders that have to share space with them....these shots were not fired at any long distance either.....sleep well and dream sweet dreams about your leo's protecting you and yours......ciao ------------------------------ From: Tom Skoglind Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:46:11 -0600 Subject: eskrima: re: dulled machete The dulled machete that you can buy for ~$10 are OK for slower non-contact training (larga style techniques) but are pretty flimsy. I have bent them just by swinging real hard with no contact at all. I believe a website called Visayan Legacy sells inexpensive training blades that are not real fancy, but do the job. http://lugani.com/visayanlegacy/ Tom ------------------------------ From: AKRKali@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:58:12 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #471 Helo, would like to know if anyone knows of qualified instructors in Okinawa Japan. I just got order there and would like to check them out. Dave AKRKALI@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "Cory Eicher" Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 20:27:33 CST Subject: eskrima: Yeek! << what exactly is a berkley stomp? >> Where you take the head of a downed opponent, put his open mouth up onto the curb and then kick the back of his head. It busts jaw and teeth. It's brutal move to say the least and no where legal or justifiable. Nasty nasty. I can see why it was given as an example of excessive force. Now I'm curious about where the name came from... Cory ========================================= Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "BILL MCGRATH" Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 21:55:35 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Victor Harris Does anyone have a current address or phone number for Victor Harris? Vic is an old friend and student of mine who, when last we spoke, lived in Montana. He teaches Kenpo, Pekiti and combat pistol work. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Tuhon Bill McGrath PS. Vic is not related to Ron Harris. ------------------------------ From: "BILL MCGRATH" Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:24:06 -0800 Subject: eskrima: MPEG VIDEO I would like to add a MPEG video clip to my web site. Does anyone know how to do this? Thanks, Tuhon Bill McGrath ------------------------------ From: "BILL MCGRATH" Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 23:21:45 -0800 Subject: eskrima: S.C. PEKITI SEMINAR PEKITI-TIRSIA WINTER BEACH SEMINAR - December 4th & 5th 1999 Myrtle Beach, S.C. Topic: Advanced Solo Baston. The 36 Attacks of Seguidas. Time: 10:00 AM to Dark (on the beach!) Cost: $120 Contact: Dr. Chris Ash c/o Northwood Chiropractic Clinic 407 79th Ave. N. Myrtle Beach S.C. 29577 (843) 497- 6467 Suggested Lodging:* Hampton Inn (843) 497-0077 Ocean Dunes (843) 449-7441 *If unable to make hotel arrangements, free lodging is available at Dr. Ash's martial arts school. Call Dr. Ash to reserve a spot and remember to bring your own sleeping bag. Note: This is the same seminar I gave at the Inosanto Academy this past February. If you were unable to make the February seminar, here is your chance to get the material that is the gateway to all advanced Pekiti-Tirsia single stick techniques. Hope to see you there, Tuhon Bill McGrath ------------------------------ From: "Ken Grubb" Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:34:13 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Duty to Kill? Patrick Christian wrote: > Here's an rough opinion that I haven't seen in regards > to knife defense: If a person attacks you with intent > to kill; isn't it our duty as trained personnel to take > the person out of the gene pool as it were? I'm thinking > with regards to the next person that may be attacked by > this nutcase. They may have no training, be female and > or a child. I know we can't answer "what if's", but if > you are attacked out of the blue (i.e. mugger/ rapist), > then you can pretty well bet that you are not the first > person to be attacked nor will you be the last. Unless > you do something about it... I personally have neither met nor heard tale of anyone who's sworn an oath as judge, jury and executioner. Trained police officers, the only civilian representatives of government with the legally sanctioned individual authority to kill, do NOT have a duty to kill people because someone MIGHT attack another at a later date. IMHO, this would tend to violate both the letter and spirit of the Due Process clause. [One could argue that judges, juries and prosecutors have the power to kill, but it is a collective rather than individual authority. Checks and balances assure this.] Borrowing from Mas Ayoob, perhaps the foremost authority on the subject, "American laws universally condone homicide ONLY WHEN UNDERTAKEN TO ESCAPE IMMINENT AND UNAVOIDABLE DANGER OF DEATH OR GRAVE BODILY HARM" to the innocent -- "In The Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob, page 10, emphasis in the original. In a video from LFI (Lethal Force Institute) shown during an FAS (Firearms Academy of Seattle) class, Mas spake the words "Immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grievous bodily harm to the innocent". Now, with all that said, should AOJP apply -- Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy and Preclusion -- one is justified in using lethal force. I'm not now, nor have I ever been, licensed to practice law in ANY state. So take this FWIW. However, it is MHO that you NOT make statements, consistent with your statement above, to police officers or prosecutors should you ever be involved in a lethal force encounter. An attorney licensed to practice law in your area can most certainly advise you in this matter. - ------- Pain is temporary. Glory is forever. Chicks dig scars. Ken Grubb Bellevue, WA ------------------------------ From: Patrick Davies Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:37:16 -0000 Subject: eskrima: gene pool cleansing <> Honoured by the endorsement. However on this case I was arguing that the direct gene pool cleansing policy shouldn't be adopted as standard. My example was pure fantasy only showing what people can manipulate to make it look their actions justified. Ultimately I agree with you that you alone are responsible for the safety of yourself and your loved ones. I stand by the need to react to the situation as it requires and not feel obliged to stand by a dogmatic approach. This after all is FMA in action isn't it? We react to the energy given and break free from the rigid practices that were once the policy. pat ------------------------------ From: "Gary A. Hudgins" Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:42:07 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #471 > > Here's a rough opinion I haven't seen in regard to self-defense: if a > > person attacks you with intent to kill, isn't it our duty as trained > > personnel to take the person out of the gene pool as it were? I'm thinking > > of the next person who may be attacked by this nutcase... Someone else wrote: This is why I stated that if the attacker ends up on the ground with 10 > or 12 cuts, but no serious stab wound, the defender didn't know what he was > doing. If one is truly skilled/experienced, the attacker either would be > subdued without chopping him into hamburger, or he would be dead. If you DO > know what you are doing and you DO chop a man up like that, then the judge > would be completely right to toss you in the can, because you were playing > with the attacker, in a somewhat sadistic manner. > On the other hand, a guy who only learned these pass-and-slash drills > that are so common in FMA schools today might not have any other options to > save his life, so he turns into a windmill and goes at it. > You are right. Explaining to the judge and jury can be real difficult. Hey guys, most judges and juries have not heard of FMA. They don't know the techniques of pass and slash. Here is where the CATCH 22 comes in. If you explain the techniques of pass and slash and then demostrate for the jury that "this is the reason he has 15 to 20 slashes to the arm before you stabed him in the heart, they are going to think. "This guy is well trained and should have been able to handle the attacker with out killing him, and was in no real danger to himself. The attacker must have really been the victim to this dangerous guy with the knife." If your own expertise does not get you convicted (remember the 60's & 70's B.S. "My hands are registered with The police as deadly weapons" crap that people would claim and others would believe) The police defensive tachtics expert comes in, testifies and gets you convicted. Although all the "expert" has ever done is look at victim photos of knife victims and read a few books he is considered an expert. Even if the expert has had some martial arts training or been through the FBI school The expert has probaly never studied the FMA or even know that they exist. He may be familar with Tae Kwon Do or some styles of karate that do use weapons, but no way will he know about FMA. After being qualified as an expert, his testimony goes something like this. "All these cuts on the arms were done as the victim(attacker) was trying to defend himself from the slashing of the defendant. This shows that the defendant was the agressor as the "attacker" was merely putting up his arms to ward off all the blows and slashes of the defendant. With the number of cuts to the "victim" and we can assume that the 'victim' put up a fight that lasted at least several minutes, the defendant was obviously the attacker." While one slash of the knife may have cut the attacker in 3 places. (Example one diagonal slash could hit the left bicep, the left forearm, and then travel across to hit the attackers right hand. The return slash could cut him in two places, etc. etc.) The district attorney then tells the jury in closing: "This defendant cut this "victim" not once but: 1. One time on the bicep 2. One time on the forearm 3. One time on the right hand 4. One time on the ____ 5. One time on the _____ 6. Etc. 7 Etc. 8. Etc. 9. Etc. 10. Etc. Etc. Etc. I had the district attorney do this to one of my clients all the way up to 49 (the number of cuts on the body) The District attorney counted one slice across three fingers of the hand as three separate cuts. In my case it was murder and not self defense, but you get the picture. True it is still better to be judged by 12 rather than carried by 6, but you still want to walk free after being judged by 12. Gary Hudgins ------------------------------ From: "Steven Dowd" Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 06:36:00 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Seminar Greetings to all. Upcoming seminar of various styles in April of 2000. information at: WORLD CLASS MARTIAL ARTS CROSS TRAINING CENTER http://members.tripod.com/~QMACTC/index.html in the events section and at: Total Approach Organization http://www.wizard.com/~kyud/tao.html in the seminar section. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 06:52:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #475 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.