From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #480 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Fri, 12 Nov 1999 Vol 06 : Num 480 In this issue: eskrima: Modern Arnis Forms eskrima: Self Defense eskrima: legal definitions eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #479 eskrima: Shooter doing time? eskrima: response to "gene pool" and other self defense comments eskrima: Re: stickfighters vs. blades, etc. eskrima: Stick and blade fighting clarifications!!! eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #479 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #478 eskrima: SelfDefense eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "bbsb" Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:32:26 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Modern Arnis Forms Is anybody aware of videotapes that demonstrate the cane forms (kata) and unarmed forms of Modern Arnis? By demonstrate, I mean do the videotapes show the forms in an instructional manner? Thank you. Brian ------------------------------ From: "Ken Grubb" Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 20:26:21 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Self Defense Mikal Keenan wrote: > two days ago two women were allegedly "jockeying" around on > a local highway after which both stopped at a traffic signal > on an exit offramp. Woman #1 pulled up in front of #2, exited > her vehicle and went back to #2's car very animatedly waving > her arms/hands and verbalizing her displeasure with the way #2 > had been tailgating on the highway. #1 then shot #2 in the > face through her driver's side window. #1 was dead on the spot. > #2 claims that she was in fear of death and fired her gun in > self defense. H'mm-m-m-m. First this was reported as a case > of "Road Rage." Now the police are calling it murder while the > lawyer says "self defense." Is the shooter going to do any time? Only God knows, and a prosecutor, grand jury, jury, judge and appeal tribunals will decide. This case bears some semblance to the first reported incident in Texas of a Concealed Handgun Licensee using a gun in defense of self. Happened circa 1996. Initial reports were of "road rage", but months later when the Grand Jury reviewed it things looked QUITE different, and the shooter was NOT indicted. Ken Grubb Bellevue, WA ------------------------------ From: "Ken Grubb" Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 20:29:36 -0500 Subject: eskrima: legal definitions Joe Hironaka wrote: > Felony: violation of law punishable by more than one year > confinement > > Misdemeanor: violation of law punishable by less than one > year confinement Growing up, this was the definition I learned in both Junior High and High School. Numerous exceptions to the rule have been created by legislatures, but it's still a good general rule. Ken Grubb Bellevue, WA ------------------------------ From: AKRKali@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:12:14 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #479 I posted this a few days ago, and no one responded. I am moving to Okinawa Japan with the military, and want to know if anyone on this post know of an instructor (Kali/Escrima/Arnis) who is there or will be there next year. If you know someone, please let me know how I can contact them. They can contact me at: AKRKALI@aol.com Thanks in advance. Dave (AKR Kali) ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:14:05 EST Subject: eskrima: Shooter doing time? In a message dated 99-11-11 22:27:15 EST, you write: << Is the shooter going to do any time? >> As one of my law professors says, juries do strange things, and the lawyer that can ever figure out just what a jury will do will be very successful indeed. Answer to above question: She might, she might not..... Alain ------------------------------ From: "Ken Grubb" Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 20:43:47 -0500 Subject: eskrima: response to "gene pool" and other self defense comments Mike Barnes wrote: > As I was growing up, I was taught to belief that killing > is wrong. However, as I got out on my own, I learned that > there is no black and white area around this ... sometimes > it can be necessary to kill. I too learned growing up that killing was wrong. IMHO, this is a good thing. At what age is one mature enough to understand first that killing might be necessary at some point, and second WHEN it is justified? [I don't have an answer, as I would hazard a guess the answer is different for each different person.] In matters of lethal force, I know of just one black and white area: There are two types of killing, justified and unjustified. There is unfortunately no clear line separating the two, but once a final verdict is rendered and appeals exhausted, a vast chasm opens between justified and unjustified killings. > I know next to nothing about our legal system and how it > works for or against people who use self defense as a > reason for anything. ... > If anyone has any comments or suggestions....please respond > here or email me directly... Though 20 years old and written with a target audience of citizens armed with firearms, I still believe "In The Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob to be a first rate intro on the subject. If you REALLY wanna spin your head in circles with at times indepth legal prose, read "The Law of Self-Defense: A Guide for the Armed Citizen" by Andrew Branca. The law portion of an NRA Personal Protection class is a rather inexpensive opportunity to talk with an attorney on the issue of deadly force and the law. Classes I know of, or have participated in as a firearms instructor, run upwards of about $50. I've recently found a local attorney in private practice who specializes in self defense cases. He provides an initial hour consultation (for which one pays) to discuss the law, what's legal, what's not, what to do, what not to do, etc. I plan to get an appointment in the very near future. Ken Grubb Bellevue, WA ------------------------------ From: "Steven Drape" Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 20:45:40 PST Subject: eskrima: Re: stickfighters vs. blades, etc. >Here's a question for the post that i can't really decide on. I see >pros and cons on both sides so here it is: > with one person trained in and actually being a seasoned sword fighter >and the other being trained in and actually being a seasoned >stickfighter, who has the advantage in the following: >1. stick vs. stick >2. sword vs. sword >3. stick vs. sword and >4. sword vs. stick >Please, no "there the same thing" responses, because there not. While an experienced stick fighter may be able to hold his own with the experienced sword fighter, my money is on the sword. The only time the stick fighter can actually be said to be equal or have any advantage is at close range, where he can use the live hand to control the blade a little, and since most stick systems don't train to stay at close range, that means almost never. The combination where the sword fighter has the stick and vice versa would depend on how the stick fighter trains to use his stick. If he trains to use it like a blade, then when he has the blade, he would be at an advantage. If, however, he trains in the closer range, snapping styles of the stick, then using the blade might be tough for him. By the way, I agree totally that they are not the same, not even close. This is one of the myths of the FMA that was propagated when the arts were being taught as add-ons to other arts back in the 70's and early 80's. While it is true that the angles are the same for any weapon, the defense will vary depending on the weapon and the range of the attack. As an example, a center thrust with a stick can be blocked or tapped aside with the empty hand, while that will get your hand sliced if you try it against the blade, assuming a competent blade wielder. Another example involves knife attacks. These are related to empty hand techniques, but have very little connection with the stick or sword. A knife attack, slash or stab, is actually like a jab, not a roundhouse punch. Think of the angles with the stick, and how much they vary from each other, like backhand vs. forehand, downward vs. upward, etc. With the knife, these distinctions don't exist. The difference between a # 1 and a #4 (forehand and backhand downward attacks) knife attack is only the angle of the wrist, the arm/shoulder position is the same for each, and the attack generally comes straight out from the center of the body. If someone is trying to do knife techniques with stick motions, then you haven't been taught the right way to use a knife. I'll stop now and wait for the consequences of these statements ;-) Steve ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Chad Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:40:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: Stick and blade fighting clarifications!!! > From: David Fulton >And for the record .... stick and sword are the same thing ;o) Sort > of > .... and sort of not .... ;o) Although alot of things are transferable on one page, once the technique is transfered from one to the other, they are used differently. Period. In stickfighting there are things that you can do that you just can not do in a sword fight. In stickfighting, although it is not idealistic, you can take certain hits (this is a whole different subject and issue that has it's place in another time and post so let's not go there, right now) and choose to be a little more aggresive. With the blade, its a whole different story. Blade fighting has to be alot more technical and aggressiveness is not usually a good thing. There is more finness when it comes to the blade. I have fought stick against stick, staff. I have fought stick against blade on the street. Actually the fight did not last because of the force that I hit his machete with. Here in Hawaii, we do stickfight. I speak out of experience. I also answer questions, but the only way to tell me I'm wrong is to step on the field and prove it. Although common trainig progressions, they are different. > Dave Fulton > >From: " Bad Karma " > >Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:15:12 -0800 (PST) > >Subject: eskrima: Stickfighter vs. swordfighter > > It seems reasonable, if not logical, that the man would have his best > advantage with his ``native'' weapon. Thus, the stickfighter should > fare better with a stick, a swordsman with a sword. > If we accept that point, then your question becomes which is the more > effective weapon? Am I on the right track, so far? OK, question a little rephrased: How would a stickfighters attributes of being able to hit with speed and power and(if he is used to fighting other stickfighters) he is used to being a little more aggressive work for or against him? How would a bladefighters more cat-like prowess and finnesse and of course his higher sense of evasion of the touch work for or against him? Alot of theories this and logically that come into the question, but when you really fight ceartain fallacies go right out the door. I know the Dog Brothers certainly awnser questions at their Gatherings, Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje Jr.'s boys awnser questions, in Hawaii we awnser questions. Take the theories and logic and test it out for real. I know that alot of the training is geared toward the same road, but fact of the matter is that you can not get to that high road of body mechanics where everything you do is interchangeable until you start walking down the path. All the old men and masters did not get there by taking classes and practicing twice a week. It was there love, drive, and devotion to become the best that made them start from young 20 year old kids testing themselves out into the transition of becoming the old men that knew what did and did not work. Also, understand that there is a difference from the self-defense stuff you learn and actually being a stickfighter where someone just as good as you or better is really trying to hit you and make you hurt. That is the type of friendly sparring that makes you not "believe" in your self or technique, it makes you know that it works because you have actually used it in real contact with someone trying to hit you full blast and trying not to get hit by you because you are trying to hit him full blast. ===== "Draw me not without reason, sheath me not without honor" Chad Hawaii __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "Patrick Christian" Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 03:11:30 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #479 Mikal Wrote: "Given the thoughts that have been flying around on the list re: legalities of self defense, try this on for thought: two days ago two women were allegedly "jockeying" around on a local highway after which both stopped at a traffic signal on an exit offramp. Woman #1 pulled up in front of #2, exited her vehicle and went back to #2's car very animatedly waving her arms/hands and verbalizing her displeasure with the way #2 had been tailgating on the highway. #1 then shot #2 in the face through her driver's side window. #1 was dead on the spot. #2 claims that she was in fear of death and fired her gun in self defense. H'mm-m-m-m. First this was reported as a case of "Road Rage." Now the police are calling it murder while the lawyer says "self defense." Is the shooter going to do any time?" I love my guns. Some of you may know how much it pains me to say so, but: " Some people should not have guns." Actually, that statement is to broad. Should woman #2 have been a gun owner? Probably not, however she should have had some more education. Shooting well is not half as important as knowing when to shoot. People like woman #2 are going to be the excuse that the government uses to take away the guns of law-abiding citizens. Maybe woman #1 called the hood of woman #2's car a bonnet? PC Inayan School of Eskrima Lenoir City, TN ------------------------------ From: "Jon Howard" Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:04:56 -0000 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #478 The following was only used as a hypothetical situation to illustrate the potential legal aspects of our actions, real life actions (as I'm sure your aware) would rely on a lot more factors than can reasonably be described here, I could give them money, I might give them money, then again I might not... yes - the hood of my car is called the bonnet. We also call the trunk the boot - as in "putting the boot in" 8-) Jon... BTW - If YOU were to give these guys money, would you be failing in YOUR DUTY to protect the next guy who's car they were sitting on.... >From: "Patrick Christian" >Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:28:00 -0500 >Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #477 > >3) If I come back from shopping to find three guys sitting on the bonnet >(hood) of my car, saying that they were "looking after it for me" and >demanding I should give them "some money". Most likely I will refuse and >politely ask them to leave me and my car alone, even more likely they will >not and a situtation will rapidly develop. Having FIRST asked them to leave >and THEN proceeding to defend myself using REASONABLE force enough to secure >my escape - what then is my next course of action. > >Jon, you could give them the money. If an armed mugger asks for your wallet, >give it to him. Otherwise someone will get hurt and the other person may go >to the morgue. >On a humorous note, if you call the hood of your car a bonnet, then someone >will definitely want to pick on you......8-) >PC >Inayan School of Eskrima >Lenoir City, TN > ------------------------------ From: "Mikal Keenan" Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:33:39 -0600 Subject: eskrima: SelfDefense Sorry, got my numbers mixed up in describing that "self defense" scenario ... Woman #1 pulled up in front of #2, exited her vehicle and went back to #2's car very animatedly waving her arms/hands and verbalizing her displeasure with the way #2 had been tailgating on the highway. #2 then shot #1 in the face through her driver's side window. #1 was dead on the spot. #2 claims that she was in fear of death and fired her gun in self defense. I think that #2 is going to do some time, eh? This is an extreme example of why people training in martial "stuff" need to do a lot of reasoning before ever encountering trouble. Some people think that they have to go all the way just because they experience real fear for a change :-) Not knowing how to cope they go terminal and later fidn that they've made a big mistake. When we have the experience of brushing with trouble we are less likely to mount a killing response because we know that it's not necessary. If that woman had just -shown- her weapon the other would have probably gotten her tush back into her car and left the scene. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 06:39:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #480 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. 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