From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #492 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Thur, 18 Nov 1999 Vol 06 : Num 492 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #488 Re: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #488 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #489 eskrima: San Miguel Eskrima eskrima: Re: Momoy's San Miguel eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #490 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #490 eskrima: Re: hand-forged "high" carbon eskrima: Comment(s) on those who comment about the Gatherings eskrima: Brewhaha, shotguns and whimpy ammo? eskrima: Re: stickfighters vs.swords eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #489 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #491 eskrima: Defense? eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #491 eskrima: Re: broad sword Re: eskrima: Brewhaha, shotguns and whimpy ammo? eskrima: list down reminder ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S." Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 20:57:58 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #488 Gee While your at it someone fill in the blanks with D Canete too. From what I have seen D and C do basically the same thing with C the only one doing the eskrido. It seems that they all have the basic ranges. Perhaps the lack of punyo is just because that is the way largo mano is done while the punyo is a necessary tool to corto. If you decide to stay outside using a punyo in largo is wasting the stick. If you crash through largo the punyo has advantages. As to any controversy...between M,C, D canete it sounds more student generated that the three leaders. Interestingly, GM Cacoy never said to me ever "Do this". It is more like "here it is". When you question him he gladly shows you why his method works which really puts a big smile on his face. I'm sure that's why at like 75 y/o he still teachs. We make him laugh. Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Redondo Beach, Ca. > Momoy was the person that taught Cacoy at the beginning. Cacoy's training > began when he was 7 years old. Years later Cacoy, being the youngest of > brothers (?), was the one that accepted the incoming challenges. He was also > training in boxing, wrestling, later Judo, etc. Among his first changes > to Momoy's style was not using a fencers grip (thumb forward) and instead > wrapping the thumb. Cacoy also moved the grip forward from gripping at > end of the stick to gripping a fist width up the stick. So I take it that > Momoy's style was primarily a fencing style. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:15:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #488 > Gee While your at it someone fill in the blanks with D Canete too. From > what I have seen D and C do basically the same thing with C the only one > doing the eskrido. It seems that they all have the basic ranges. Perhaps > the lack of punyo is just because that is the way largo mano is done while > the punyo is a necessary tool to corto. If you decide to stay outside using > a punyo in largo is wasting the stick. If you crash through largo the punyo > has advantages. As to any controversy...between M,C, D canete it sounds > more student generated that the three leaders. Interestingly, GM Cacoy > never said to me ever "Do this". It is more like "here it is". When you > question him he gladly shows you why his method works which really puts a > big smile on his face. I'm sure that's why at like 75 y/o he still teachs. D, C's nephew, was a student under C. But as Cacoy puts it, he learned Cacoy's older system. Soon to be 81, Cacoy can still have fun with many of us. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S." Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:11:11 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #489 Animal, Near total agreement with you. I'm an edge man too but not the way most are taught to meet the edge 90 degrees to the coming attack. There is a better way so that you can rigidly hold your mother and let gravity work for you. I assume that in your method your personal mobility increases to aid in putting your blade where you want it vs what you can do with muscling around a light stick. Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Redondo Beach, Ca. > training pick up my 2 1/2 pound broadsword Clyde. All of a sudden about 95 % > of what they knew just went out the window. Weight makes a major difference > of what techniques you can use. Also the requirements of hitting with the > edge also make major differences as do parrying with the edge Yeah I know, > big debate here...my stand from having a psycho try to regularly split my > head with a sword and having the less than fun experience of my sword > snapping because I parried flat - not to mention way too many disarms because > I didn't parry with the edge - puts me firmly into the parry with the edge > camp. (If you get your stick knocked out of your hand it's because you > parried with the "flat" - such a block causes the sucker to twist like a > trout in your hand. ------------------------------ From: jimms@pipeline.com Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 00:28:36 -0500 Subject: eskrima: San Miguel Eskrima Regarding San Miguel Eskrima, I would invite everyone to visit our website at www.eskrima.com. Tom Bisio has written his view of the history as told to him by Momoy Canete. The system's basis is espada y daga or stick and dagger and we use a 32"-33" stick. Not only does the extra few inches tremendously add to the leverage generated by the stick, because it is heavier than say a 28" stick we have a strong emphasis on body mechanics. Timing, distance and structure are all emphasized in order to negate an opponent's speed. San Miguel as taught by Tom Bisio progresses in a series of exercises and of course, the long San Miguel form until the pieces can be applied in a modular fashion. Therefore any of the two man drills or counters to the 12 angles of attack can be "plugged in" at appropiate times depending on what the opponent does. The curriculum also offers several other weapons such as ananangkill (50" stick), double stick, spear, chain, whip and Tom and I are currently exploring rapier and dagger. My background includes many years of fencing in both competition and coaching. I would like to take the opportunity to thank Big Al Sardinas of the Garimont system who visited our class last week for his kind words and invite others from the list to visit us should they be in New York. I would also be happy to discuss our system with anyone who is interested. Respectfully, James M. Seetoo Instructor, San Miguel Eskrima ------------------------------ From: "Steven Drape" Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:11:08 PST Subject: eskrima: Re: Momoy's San Miguel >Well on a more serious note, my understanding of San Miguel is that it >is more or less the art that was originally taught to Momoy and Yolang >Canette, and Anciong Bacon, by the Saavedra brothers many many moons >ago. I know that Tom Bisio is probably the foremost authority on it. I >have been meaning to train with Tom for the past few years, but than >again I have been meaning to do a lot of things for the last few years, >so we wont go there. I know it is more or less a linear art like >Balintawak, and if its anything like the Saavedra method it is stick and >dagger. Momoy Canete's style is mostly espada y daga, and it is a linear style, mainly long- and some mid-range techniques. Eulogio "Inkyo Yoling" Canete's style was larga mano, with less emphasis on E y D, though still blade- rather than stick-oriented. GM Abner Pasa is the recognized heir to Eulogio's system. Momoy's style is based very much on the Spanish styles of sword and dagger, where the sword is the fighting weapon, and the dagger is held back near the hip, only used as a last resort for defense, and mainly as a finishing tool on offense, after the sword has done everything possible. GM Pasa incorporates San Miguel techniques into his system because he was also Momoy's choice to inherit the system, but chose not to for various reasons (something we've covered in previous posts). These techniques include movements like double arco flourishes and interesting cross-stepping on turns and pivots. Steve ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 01:30:45 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #490 In a message dated 11/17/99 4:11:04 PM Mountain Standard Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I practice Serrada all the = time at home with a machete. It weights about two pounds and I can still = do all of the basic maneuver. If you try to do this ...lets say with a = claymore...no it is not going to work.. It sounds to me like people are = just arguing to be arguing..... >> not really, realize it is not only a matter of pure weight, but balance and leverage. Two pounds sitting directly over your hand is different than two pounds leading point out. A two pound machete? That must be one honker of a blade there Cochise. ------------------------------ From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 01:32:17 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #490 In a message dated 11/17/99 4:11:04 PM Mountain Standard Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << while Marc (Animal) is about half my size and is as happy as a clam if you hand him a 3 lb bastard sword. >> Birds of a feather and all that :D ------------------------------ From: John Frankl Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 01:44:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: eskrima: Re: hand-forged "high" carbon I like the posts on swords and other heavy weapons, and the adjusments they will require in terms of technique. I forge blades (amateur) and just to be picky, those khukris are probably more medium than high carbon. The steel is usually from leaf springs--like lots of the newer stuff from the Philippines--making it most likely 5160 steel. In any case, this is a good thing for longer weapons--bowies to broadswords--particularly if they are designed for impact. John ------------------------------ From: Eric Knaus Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:51:24 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Comment(s) on those who comment about the Gatherings As forwarded to me from Arlan Sanford who is having ISP difficulties *********************************************************************** ******** > well i've fought in three gatherings and have to strongly disagree with you - > first off none of the afore mentioned fights involved live blades let alone > blade vs. baston so the stmnt really address the issue - second off in > regards to the gatherings - they are good for what they are but after > witnessing masters at work i wouldnt call what they are doing escrima - - i > call it crash and bash - i've seen masters at work mearly sway back out of > the way of a attack - then angle in for their counter attacks -- i'm not > putting down the gatherings - just saying it aint the art form - do you think > guro dan would stand toe to toe and slug it out - or do you tink he would use > foot work to out manover you and take your head off without you even knowing > what hit you. Where to start.....I'll admit that most of the fights at a gathering would end badly if a blade were used instead of a stick, but, important point, we're not using blades. Bladed weapons and blunt weapons are two separate and distinct forms of weaponry and to compare fighting styles is comparing apples and oranges, sorry they're just not the same. As to "crash and bash"..... 1. I've seen very few fights won running away, somewhere along the way you have to stand your ground. 2. I agree the majority of the fights seem a little "uncontrolled" but, hey, very few street and bar fights I've seen were "controlled" and if you've had someone big, mean and bent on whipping your butt coming after you you'd better be able to deal with that.(see 1.).3. Fighters only get out what they put in, if you feel that your fights are inadequate, pick a tougher opponent. I see gatherings and fighting in general as a way to test and experiment without actually dying at the end and part of that testing is fighting someone who has the potential of beating you and seeing if you can continue without bailing out when things get tough. On the other side of that, if you watch a match between fighters with a lot of fights, almost every moment of the fight is controlled by one fighter or the other. I think when Eric and I fight that every move, every moment is focused, at least for me anyway. Masters.....hmmmmm.There are certainly a few what I would consider "Masters" out there, Guro Inosanto being one, as was PG Edgar Sulite and I'm sure there are others that I haven't had the pleasure of working with. However, there are a lot of proffessed masters who as far as I can see talk the talk but have a little trouble walking the walk, flashy moves with a stick or blade and the ability to do lots of fancy drills don't always translate into any kind of fighting skill. Over the years there have been several gentlemen who have showed up proclaiming "mastery" and I must tell you faired poorly withsticks, whether or not they were truly "masters" I couldn't say, but can only go by what I saw, which was an inability to handle power, an inability to deliver power and a complete loss of style in the pressure of a fight, and the inability to adapt to techniques outside of their particular style. I find it telling that PG Edgar Sulite worked with a number of Dog Brothers, including Marc and myself, and trained us to fight, often, I think to test what he felt should work in a fight (thankfully, most everything did. The only footwork I seem to be able to pull off came from Lameco and my knee is thankfull every time I fight.) Anybody that doesn't respect Edgar as one of the best "Artists" around just didn't work with him, and I feel he appreciated the art in the fighting that someone who doesn't fight might not. I'm sure that someone watching professional sports for the first time would only see mayhem, since they have no reference points, fighting is the same, someones inability to see what is going on in a fight doesn't mean it's not there, just that you they don't know what they are seeing. And to end, between Eric, Marc and myself ( not to mention everyone else involved) we probably have over 45 years of training in "Art". Everything from Kali and Escrima to Krabi-Krabong to JKD to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Don't confuse the training art with the art of fighting. Arlan ------------------------------ From: "Patrick Christian" Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 02:49:42 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Brewhaha, shotguns and whimpy ammo? Rocky Pasiwk States "On another note, I know I am a little behind on my posts, but my interpretation of the guy who posted something about the gene pool theory, is that if you are attack and forced to fight you have to fight as if you were fighting for your life. If you try this Karate creed crap, that I will harm instead of maim, maim instead of kill, or how ever the hell it goes, all I can say is that crap will get you killed in the streets that I am use to. I teach my students and will myself hit you with as much and as intense violence as I can possibly inflict upon your person if you come after me. I'll worry about the legalities later ( thats what Lawyers are for), especially if I have my wife and daughter with me. This is not a hard guy macho B.S statement I will always talk or weasel my way out of a confrontation now a days, but if you force me, that's your problem. And I kind of think that's what the gentleman was thinking about." Man, I thought that brewhaha had died down. Thanks for assuming that I am a gentleman (I try). Exactly my point, Rocky. I would feel more strongly about protecting a loved one or friend too. Paul Martin writes "I agree with the inappropriateness of non lethal ammunition for civilian. Is the ammunition even available to civilians?" If you feel that you need to resort to non-lethal ammo, then you do not need to own a gun. A gun has only one purpose: TO KILL. The non-lethal ammo is available to civilians and/or could be hand made. I prefer the 12 gauge ammo loaded with carpet tacks. OUCH!!! They do a lot of damage to fleshy tissue. (Good for hanging multiple pictures too!) Since everyone wants to talk about legalities 24/7, I will add my 2 cents. You won't have near as much of a problem if you shoot an intruder in your home, compared to a street shooting. If it turns out the intruder wasn't even armed, you can always rely on your kitchen knives, 'nuff said. Patrick N. Christian Inayan School of Eskrima Lenoir City, TN ------------------------------ From: Mushtaq Ali Shah Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 01:01:33 -0900 Subject: eskrima: Re: stickfighters vs.swords Fox_hound says; > Give me a break. The only difference with blocking a sword hit is that >you'll be a little bit farther from your target due to the extension. >You're probably thinking that the strenght of a two handed downward strike >would mess up a person holding a kris with only one hand right? Well, I'd >block with it an upper X block, lock it, slide right under the sword and >slice. As for horizontal strikes, there are the the secondary blocks. >Funny thing about FMA is that these arts aren't for show. When we can't >go for the body we break the knee caps and anything else that bends. > >Just a few things from a stickfighter. I could be wrong. I've been playing FMA since my mid teens and IMA for about 20 years now, I have also had the pleasure of working with a few people who have made a serious study of European and mid eastern sword combat. One very important lesson that they taught me is that the other guy is called the opponent because he is not only NOT going to cooperate with your technique, but he is going to do everything possible to screw up what you are planning. (This was not a new lesson, but they were particularly good at it). What we have been talking about in this thread is not the later Italian or French schools of rapier dueling with their rules of gentlemanly conduct, but something a little earlier and a lot more efficient. (George Silver wrote a couple of interesting monographs on this subject a while back that you might want to check out). These arts were developed by professional fighters with the sole purpose of killing the other guy before he kills you, and being that the other guy had been training almost daily from about age 12 what you would be going up against will be quite good. I have played Filipino weapons against these guys and did not find them wanting in the least. Interestingly, they also understood the concept of breaking knees, groin shots and the infamous "underhanded blow". Being as what we were discussing have been battlefield skills rather than something to impress melady, there is nothing "for show" about them either. While I in no way discount the possibility that you are a fine enough martial artist that you could contest with these folks and do pretty much anything you like to them, I do not think that it is entirely beyond the realm of possibility that you have underestimated a set of skills that were developed through 800 years of some of the worst conflicts the planet has ever seen. The Master Armorer of the Tower of London has helped to put together a couple of videos that illustrate what European sword and pole arm combat actually looked like, you would probably enjoy viewing them. Wassalam, Mushtaq Ali --------------------Come visit-------------------- --------Mushtaq Ali's virtual caravansarai-------- UNIVERSES CREATED, MAINTAINED and DESTROYED -------------------WHILE-U-WAIT------------------- http://www.chatlink.com/~mushtaq ------------------------------ From: Jonas Dyhrfjeld-Johnsen Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:59:49 +0100 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #489 Animal wrote: > I heartily recommend you all go out and pick up a sword - not a Hong Ko= ng > katana, not a kris, not a tinfoil Wu-shu toy or an aluminum Bagua pig s= ticker > - - but a real steel sword and try moving it around. You can go to > Rennassaince Faires, Gun Shows, SCA events or collector stores. Then do= your > kali/escrima/arnis moves and see how different it really is. I keep on > hearing people say that if you know sticks they apply to all weapons...= take > the test folks. > = > You're gonna find out that while there are key elements in common, the > differences are just as significant as the similarities. (For the recor= d, > that last statement was made by one of those scientist/swordsmen, who i= s also > a kali practictioner). AMEN !! I believe the key element to this, is that while it is possible to control and use the lighter stick with only your arm(s), it is impossible with a heavier weapon like a sword: You need proper body mechanics !! If people go and learn those necessary body mechanics for the swords and take those principles back to their stickwork, they=B4ll find themselves hitting much harder and more controlled, and needing less space to swing the stick. And on top of that the added benifit, as mentioned by Animal, of edge awareness... Sincerely, Jonas - ------------------------------------------------------------- Jonas Dyhrfjeld-Johnsen (Ms.sc.Biophysics & Bs.sc.Physics) Graduate student in the Computational Systems Neuroscience Group at the C. & O. Vogt Brain Research Institute in Duesseldorf, Germany. (office phone +49-211-81-12095) ** What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger ! ** - ------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jonas Dyhrfjeld-Johnsen Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 10:17:39 +0100 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #491 Foxhound wrote: > Give me a break. The only difference with blocking a sword hit is that you'll be a > little bit farther from your target due to the extension. You're probably thinking that > the strenght of a two handed downward strike would mess up a person holding a kris with > only one hand right? Well, I'd block with it an upper X block, lock it, slide right under > the sword and slice. As for horizontal strikes, there are the the secondary blocks. > Funny thing about FMA is that these arts aren't for show. When we can't go for the body > we break the knee caps and anything else that bends. > > Just a few things from a stickfighter. I could be wrong. Hmmm, - dont know what is meant by an upper x-block, but I guess you are wrong. Straight on blocks to an attack of this strength will get you nowhere but dead ! If you want to stand a chance in the described situation the plan would be to use your speed and footwork to get "around" the problem, - that is offline the hell out of there and get in close to work with that kris. Believe me: Traditional western swordsmanship is as little for show as the FMA. Trouble is that you usually only see watered-down versions out there (at fairs, SCA etc.), which ahs nothing to do with down and dirty medieval warfare. There is just as much slamming, raking with quillions, butt-ending, stomping etc. as in the FMA. That being said I still encourage you to try and use traditional medieval weapons in an FMA context, - does your stickwork good as well. Jonas - -- - ------------------------------------------------------------- Jonas Dyhrfjeld-Johnsen (Ms.sc.Biophysics & Bs.sc.Physics) Graduate student in the Computational Systems Neuroscience Group at the C. & O. Vogt Brain Research Institute in Duesseldorf, Germany. (office phone +49-211-81-12095) ** What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger ! ** - ------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: TGAce@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 06:58:17 EST Subject: eskrima: Defense? Even with all my love for the MA's and all the training Ive had, if I ever get into a self defense situation and have any choice, first I would try to run. If that isn't an option and I have a choice of weapon, it would be a firearm. Of any weapon it has the most "punch" for its size. The odds or amount of physical contact or effort is somewhat less than any non-ballistic weapon. They can punch through barriers and your defensive range is much greater. If I don't have a firearm or I run out of ammo, I would go to the next layer. Any stick, chain, knife, rock, pencil etc. I can get my hands on and have at it. If not or im disarmed, than H2H. On the topic of H2H with firearms, since many gunfights occur within 10 feet or less, if you only concentrate on shooting your opponent you could be in trouble. Paul's comment on butstroking is valid if your in to close to bring the gun to bear or are grappling over it. Same goes for pistols, If a guy is on top of you and your only trying to draw, he's gonna pound you. If you poke him in the eye or heel hand him in the face, it will give you more time and space to draw. Combat is a continuum. Everybody here seems wrapped up in minutia and academics about details. Take a wider view. Its all about winning, regardless of the tools or means. If your not cheating in combat, your not trying hard enough. Tom Gerace ------------------------------ From: MdlAgdLftr@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 07:48:41 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #491 >>I believe Tom Bisio (Tuhon in ptk) was the only one certified under Mamoy...he (Bisio) somewhat improved the system (no disrespect to Mamoy)...added a Chinese element...can't remember the style but it is supposed to be one that generates great power<< You are correct, Bisio did add a Chinese element to his FMA; the style in question is Hsing-I, and Bisio can generate tremendous power without sacrificing any fluidity at all. One of my FMA teachers studied for many years with Bisio, and I have to say that Bisio is one of the most impressive martial artists I've ever seen perform. On top of that, I understand Bisio is also down-to-earth, approachable, always willing to share his art, and remains the quintessential "nice guy." We certainly need more like him around.... Kim Satterfield ------------------------------ From: "Branwen Thomas" Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 10:34:53 -0330 Subject: eskrima: Re: broad sword >Hopefully we can draw Animal into this thread. It is a little known fact that he is quite adept >with a broad sword and used one professionally for several years Professionally? Doing what? Tell! Tell! (if it's appropriate, and with all due respect...) :) jocelyne Roaring Girl * Purveyor Of Fine Books * Beater Of Bodhrans * Smiter Of The Wicked * * Owned By Angus, Most Elegant And Pleasing Of Cats * ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 06:45:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: eskrima: Brewhaha, shotguns and whimpy ammo? > A gun has only one purpose: TO KILL. Another common misconception. My trap/skeet gun's purpose is to break little clay pigeons. My target rifle's purpose is to punch holes close together in pieces of paper. My Glock .40s purpose is to defend me should I require that. In NONE of these cases is their 'only one purpose' to kill. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 06:44:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: list down reminder Just a reminder that the lists will be down from 11/20 to 12/2. Ray Terry rterry@best.com ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #492 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in directory pub/eskrima/digests. 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