From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #493 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Thur, 18 Nov 1999 Vol 06 : Num 493 In this issue: eskrima: thoughts on swords and styles eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #492 Re: eskrima: thoughts on swords and styles eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #492 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #492 eskrima: heirs in Doce Pares eskrima: Animal's sordid past eskrima: Aloha Online News eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #490 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #492 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #491 eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Barnes" Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 10:30:43 -0500 Subject: eskrima: thoughts on swords and styles This is not a response to anyone, just my thoughts... As I have stated, I have seen people "play" at fighting in the SCA and I = will agree that I can see the effectiveness of the weapons used. I also = see the effectiveness of FMA. Each in its on way is a very good combat = art. However, I don't think that any one style can beat another. Winning = any kind of fight depends on the training, dedication, flight or fight = instinct, and lets not forget luck. On the subject of blade awareness.... I believe that a person can practice with a stick and still be blade(edge) = aware... As long as you think about your stick having an edge, what would = be the difference? (besides weight... of course) Is it not having a = sharp point?.... Weights.... I have never actually weight my machete. I was going by feel...not = scales... It is easy to think something weights less than it does...I will = weight it and see... This question goes to Ray... Why am I getting the =3D sign in my responses? Mike Barnes Inayan System of Eskrima Lenoir City, TN ------------------------------ From: "paul martin" Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:59:44 GMT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #492 Though I agree with the last thread on the guns vs sword post, there is one point I would like to dispute. THere is not only one purpose for a gun. Killing is the INTENT of the user. Guns are nothing more than tools that put a lot of pounds per square inch of pressure behind a small projectile. A gun has no purpose. It is an inanimate object. It is a tool. People use guns for the purpose of target practice, intimidation (though I don't think this is the wisest use), personal empowerment (I definitely don't agree with this purpose), historical accuracy and a variety of other reasons other than killing. Just like the other practitioners of other martial arts, there are as many different reasons for them to practice their art as there are people. What is the purpose of a sword, knife, stick, or any of the ancient weapons? They have no purpose except the one that the practitioner using it sets with. It is the cliche that it isn't the gun that kills people, people kill people. The gun is just a tool to fulfill that purpose. Paul ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 08:31:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: eskrima: thoughts on swords and styles > This question goes to Ray... > > Why am I getting the =3D sign in my responses? Perhaps it is a smart-quote or some other special character. Look for something like that in your mailer's config/prefs area. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:18:10 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #492 In a message dated 11/18/99 7:50:36 AM Mountain Standard Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Even with all my love for the MA's and all the training Ive had, if I ever get into a self defense situation and have any choice, first I would try to run. >> Where I'm from we call that common sense ------------------------------ From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:13:52 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #492 In a message dated 11/18/99 7:50:36 AM Mountain Standard Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I assume that in your method your personal mobility increases to aid in putting your blade where you want it vs what you can do with muscling around a light stick. >> Exactly. After playing with real swords when I came across Kali I was seriously impressed with the codification and emphasis on footwork. Also in regards to the edge to edge thing, it takes footwork for me to effectively hide behind my blade. Footwork is something that I don't think you get a real appreciation for until you realize you can't take a hit from an edge. Furthermore most of my strikes come from my body, not from my arms, which makes it even more important. ------------------------------ From: steve wolk Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:30:34 -0700 Subject: eskrima: heirs in Doce Pares Steven Drape wrote: "Momoy Canete's style is mostly espada y daga, and it is a linear style, mainly long- and some mid-range techniques. Eulogio "Inkyo Yoling" Canete's style was larga mano, with less emphasis on E y D, though still blade- rather than stick-oriented. GM Abner Pasa is the recognized heir to Eulogio's system." Recognized by who?? If you ask GM Dionisio Canete, the son of Eulogio, who the heir to his father's system is, I don't think you'll get the same answer. It is somewhat careless to only have one source when making statements such as these.... This reminds me of a similar claim regarding being offered Momoy' system. This is equally suspect. Steve Wolk ------------------------------ From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:31:11 EST Subject: eskrima: Animal's sordid past In a message dated 11/18/99 7:50:36 AM Mountain Standard Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << >Hopefully we can draw Animal into this thread. It is a little known fact that he is quite adept >with a broad sword and used one professionally for several years >Professionally? Doing what? Tell! Tell! (if it's appropriate, and with all due respect...) >> For several years I did the California Rennassaince Faire doing live steel, full force, unchoreographed sword fighting. The guy who we worked for was a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic, his name was Matthew Cross. The best summation of fighting with Matthew came from Justin Kocher who a few years ago while we were discussing if we really thought Matthew was trying to kill us is "I like to hope he would have stopped." Things got a little....umm...wild. We were armoured and the edges were dulled, but blood did fly fairly regularly. Furthermore things like groin kicks, elbows, headbutts, footchecks and throws were fairly common, this of course was complicated by things like tables, benches, coffins and anvils. But as my wife likes to point out "I wasn't too bright back then." I have a chipped tooth from where Matthew tried to ram a sword point down my throat as he slid over a clench. (I had just bodychecked him over the anvil). Only the fact that I was snarling at the moment kept me from eating the sword. This was our play. However it prepared me for when I went out into the streets of LA and things got really hairy. Now you know my sordid little past when it comes to how I know blades. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 08:59:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: Aloha Online News Forwarding. Ray - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Holiday greetings and Aloha to all! 1999 is coming to a close and the Year 2000 season is about to begin. Some events have been scheduled for next year and you can check our list at www.aloha-enterprises.com for additional information or to post your website/tournament/seminar and special event free! Some of the upcoming events are: TOURNAMENTS: January 15, 2000 - Stockton, CA - Ultimate Challenge IV - Promoter Art Diocson Febuary 12, 2000 - Oakley, CA - 3rd Annual Aloha Open Karate Championships - Promoter Burt Riveira (925)625-6474 burt@aloha-enterprises.com March 11, 2000 - Manteca, CA - 4th Annual March Open Championships - Promoter Taberna's Tae Kwon Do - 209-239-8064 December 4, 1999 - Gilroy, CA - 10th Annual Mid-Cal Open All Junior Karate Championships - Sifu Doug Noble 408-842-2875 January 21-22, 2000 - New York City, NY - JBL Empire State Nationals at Madison Square Garden Convention Center- Joyce Santamaria - (516) 265-1555 Joyces@pagelinx.com March 18, 19, 2000 - North Vancouver, BC - Canada - The Tiger Balm Internationals - jfunk@smartt.com 604-421-3653 NBL/SKI AAA Rated Event! April 1-2, 2000 - Sidney, Australia - 2000 World Martial Arts Millennium Games - Over 240 divisions! Open to all styles! We are looking for Team members and Coaches! kenpo@shore.intercom.net or 410-742-2094 fax 410-742-6720 Bruce Smith SEMINARS! DESTIN, FL - Nin-Jutsu/Ju-Jutsu Seminar with Harris Warren - Soke November 20, 1999 shihan2@nuc.net or senseijr1@aol.com 850-650-9013 DAYTON, OH - Muai Thai Boxing Seminar with Ajarn Sirichai "Chai" Sirisute - November 21-22, 1999 Contact Cat or Jose 937-237-5450 kali@aegispro.com PHILADELPHIA, PA - Remy Presas/Wally Jay/George Dillman Seminar - April 8, 2000 - Contact Charles Terry MD - MKDojo@aol.com www.mkakarate.com Aloha Enterprises International - 1-925-625-6474 Announces The 3rd Annual Aloha Open Karate Championships! February 12, 2000 - Freedom High School - Oakley, CA - New Self Defense Divisions Added! www.aloha-enterprises.com ------------------------------ From: Mark Ward Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 10:13:05 -0800 Subject: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #490 > How do you open yourself up? Wouldn't show a sign of > restraint and ruin an > argument of intent if you shoot someone in a situation after > you have tried > using other methods to defend yourself?, (Sorry Marc) Evil Attorney: "So, you state you were in immediate fear of your life?" Hapless Defendant: "Yes." Evil Attorney: "That's why you produced this shotgun, loaded with five cartridges of ammunition, each containing nine projectiles? So, you were in such fear for your life that you were forced to consider lethal force to save your life? I remind you that these were your words." Hapless Defendant: "Um , yes." Evil Attorney: "But then in the struggle with this young man, you decided that lethal force wasn't justified and you decided to 'exercise restraint' - again, in your words?" Hapless Defendant: "Uhh" Evil Attorney: "But later in your struggle with my client, the son of this grieving mother, a struggle where you beat him with such intensity, such vigor, that bruises were clearly visible all over his body, you capriciously decided that he once again posed such a threat to your life that you decided to take his life. When exactly did you make this determination?" Hapless Defendant: I think that any time you diverge away from "I was in immediate fear of my life" you open yourself up to being taken apart legally. > Is the ammunition even available to civilians? There aren't any laws (that I'm aware of) in Kalifornia prohibiting their sales. It largely depends on what catalog you're ordering from. I don't know about other states. Best regards, mfw - ----------------------------------------------------------- markfward o_o mfw@quokka.com webmaster / )o www.quokka.com quokka sports (_/ $HOME = /dev/null -- ..-. .-- @ --.- ..- --- -.- -.- .- . -.-. --- -- - ----------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: SReiter000@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:43:31 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #492 In a message dated 11/18/99 6:50:35 AM Pacific Standard Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Where to start.....I'll admit that most of the fights at a gathering would end badly if a blade were used instead of a stick, but, important point, we're not using blades. Bladed weapons and blunt weapons are two separate and distinct forms of weaponry and to compare fighting styles is comparing apples and oranges, sorry they're just not the same.>> ME: where start indeed - first off i am only speaking as to impact weapons - so we'll compare apples to apples < As to "crash and bash"..... 1. I've seen very few fights won running away, somewhere along the way you have to stand your ground.> ME: i've seen plenty - i' m not talking running away to live to fight another day -- why do you think footwork is such a intergral part of kali - if it didnt work - (such as quatering someone ect.) it wouldnt be part of the training - instead of triangular foot foot we would learn "just run in and bash the hell out of the guy - and let the strongest/higher pain tollerant guy win --- wrong - foot work is to give advantage over your oppenant - in tuhon gaje's words (one of the other masters i've trained with) get in and get out - as a matter of fact - what make pekiti superior (imho - and i think eric's too.) is their foot work over other systems foot work- why are boxers taught foot work - other then a rare few who stand toe to toe - the best are the more agile - look at ALI - or do you concider his rope-a-dope and shuffling "running away" - purhaps your physical attributes allow YOU to be able to stand toe to toe and come out on top - but thats not the norm - evasive and/or tatical foot work is there for a reason - it works - i would take evading someone elses blows - coming in delivering my own strikes and getting back out of the way before he hits me again - over trading blows to see who's left standing anyday - cause if i can do the in and out sucessfully (not that i can) i'll always be the one left standing at the end of the day >2. I agree the majority of the fights seem a little "uncontrolled" but, hey, very few street and bar fights I've seen were "controlled" and if you've had someone big, mean and bent on whipping your butt coming after you you'd better be able to deal with that.(see 1.).> ME: i agree - like i said in my post - the gathering are GOOD for what they are - a good test of fighting ability (so is doing some NHB stuff) - a way to maybe test to see if some technique works ect. - all i'm saying is it's closer to a bar room brawl - or caveman swing clubs - as opposed to a mastery of kali- the way guro dan - - punong guro edgar - GM canete - GM La coste ' - even GM illustrisimo with his foot nailed to the floor was able to sway his body to avoid being hit before beating his oppenants - i believe the only toe to toe fighter was tuhon villabraille - never saw footage of him - but i hear he would just come at his oppenants using a pi-pi technique and beat you dowm with it >3. Fighters only get out what they put in, if you feel that your fights are inadequate, pick a tougher opponent. I see gatherings and fighting in general as a way to test and experiment without actually dying at the end and part of that testing is fighting someone who has the potential of beating you and seeing if you can continue without bailing out when things get tough.> agreed - i see them the same way ( see above answer) - but again seeing how much punishment my body cant take is a test of my metal - my balls - and my inablity to think rationally (hey i'm getting hurt - normal people would stop unless they enjoy pain - lol) all valuable - but imho not kali the way it was designed - if villagers fought this way in battle - everyone would be dead - > On the other side of that, if you watch a match between fighters with a lot of fights, almost every moment of the fight is controlled by one fighter or the other. I think when Eric and I fight that every move, every moment is focused, at least for me anyway.> ME: yes eric does seem to use the get in and get out foot work taught to him by tuhon gaje' - and is appling the art aspect more then anyone else i've seen - and yes never seen him lose yet - and yes he's big and strong and when he decides to crash and bash - and he always does - he comes out on top - although he did get bloody at the last gathering - his choice on how he wants to fight - i'm sure he firgured - hey i've beat this guy with my sticks enough - time to practice my bjj - but again if true kali- in true combat - one or both would have pulled blades and you dont want to grapple with knives - - i know apples and oranges - but my original post was compairing gathering to masterful kali - and imho - the two are apples and oranges - that was the whole point of the post - >Masters.....hmmmmm.There are certainly a few what I would consider "Masters" out there, Guro Inosanto being one, as was PG Edgar Sulite and I'm sure there are others that I haven't had the pleasure of working with. However, there are a lot of proffessed masters who as far as I can see talk the talk but have a little trouble walking the walk, flashy moves with a stick or blade and the ability to do lots of fancy drills don't always translate into any kind of fighting skill. Over the years there have been several gentlemen who have showed up proclaiming "mastery" and I must tell you faired poorly withsticks, whether or not they were truly "masters" I couldn't say, but can only go by what I saw, which was an inability to handle power, an inability to deliver power and a complete loss of style in the pressure of a fight, and the inability to adapt to techniques outside of their particular style.> ME: already listed the masters i trained under (some only in a seminar stituation) - i've been studing privately with guro ron balicki - i'm sure you know him for 5 years - and been studing with guro dan for 3 several times a week without fail - ron was one of edgars top students - he was in edgars video's - for the first 2.5 years of my training i wasnt interest in the "art" aspect of kali - ron trained me to be a fighter only - so i'm very familar with guro edgars "fighting techniques" - as well as a 2 week intensive mastery training camp (12 hour days) with tuhon gaje' - - i'm not claiming to be a master - but i know one when i see one - i forgot to mention Tuhon Bill Mcgrath previously - look at the way he moves - or tom bisio - it's all foot work - compounded with amazing power - i saw tom's fights at the world championships (which he won) after only 3 years of training - why? because of foot work - also a guro under tom bisio - bill mcgrath - and leo gaje' - is doug marcaida - he has some of the best foot work i've seen - either him or his guys consistantly win or place very high in the lion heart compitions - why - superior foot work - I find it telling that PG Edgar Sulite worked with a number of Dog Brothers, including Marc and myself, and trained us to fight, often, I think to test what he felt should work in a fight (thankfully, most everything did. The only footwork I seem to be able to pull off came from Lameco and my knee is thankfull every time I fight.) Anybody that doesn't respect Edgar as one of the best "Artists" around just didn't work with him, and I feel he appreciated the art in the fighting that someone who doesn't fight might not. I'm sure that someone watching professional sports for the first time would only see mayhem, since they have no reference points, fighting is the same, someones inability to see what is going on in a fight doesn't mean it's not there, just that you they don't know what they are seeing.> ME: i dont know if you mean me - however i totally respect edgar -- i was just pointing out masters dont stand toe to toe - they use fotwaork as it was intended to be used - like you said - edgars foot work is the only foot work you've pulled off -- you make my point for me And to end, between Eric, Marc and myself ( not to mention everyone else involved) we probably have over 45 years of training in "Art". Everything from Kali and Escrima to Krabi-Krabong to JKD to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Don't confuse the training art with the art of fighting. Arlan >> ME: - i train 7 days a week - i train in the above mentioned arts as well as silat and muay thai and shoot wrestling - so what? i know of street fighters who love to go out and start fights and be in fights since they where 5 or 6 - - one guy even ended up as mike tysons punching bag (sparring partner) just cause he could take a punch - had more balls then brains - ect. - he'd beat the snot outta me - dosent mean he's a artist - i'll bet any gorilla - (the semmian type) will beat any human any day of the week - does that mean they're better pugililsts - as for marc - well my at first gathering marc was my oppenant 2x - mind you this was after only 3 months of training - i faired pretty well against him in single stick (to be fair to marc he may have been holding back since he knew i was a beginner - i dont know either way) - but he beat the snot outta me double sticks - ( i stopped the fight after a few shots to my head caused me to see stars and hear bells -LITTERALLY) - however after training with him for some time at the academy (when he show up for class - and by the way we roomed together at the pekiti camp) - well - lets just say i THINK? i would do much, much better against him this time around - steve ------------------------------ From: HENSHIN@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 19:31:18 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #491 In a message dated 11/17/99 10:00:11 PM US Mountain Standard Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << actually it was the same person who said salem had a new savate book and would get more info on it -- me! - i'm still waiting to heard back from him and will post the info as soon as i get it -- steve >> Thanks. Much appreciated, steve! Cecil Burch ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 17:31:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #493 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.