From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #510 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sat, 11 Dec 1999 Vol 06 : Num 510 In this issue: eskrima: (no subject) eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #508 eskrima: Swish of the kris eskrima: toe-2-toe eskrima: last thoughts on toe 2 toe vs. footwork eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #509 (fwd) eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Reisya@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 18:46:35 EST Subject: eskrima: (no subject) Snip: This assignment of rank represents the dedication > > Bob Manalo, Jr. > IESA Bob, Master JC Cabiero has a sash ranking system also, since they both have roots with Angel maybe this was something Angel was thinking or talking about to them? He has a group in Germany, Seattle, Philly, Florida, and a few other pockets also. Peace Yvonne ------------------------------ From: "Steven Drape" Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:52:55 PST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #508 >1) Why does demonstrably non-aerobic exercise preserve cardiovascular >performance? Could it be that our so called cardiovascular fitness is >heavily influenced by the state of our lung expansion and the strength of >the breathing muscles? Over the last two years, I have been teaching scuba diving, which means that I am often making 3-5 dives a day. When I am that busy, it becomes difficult to maintain my running/training on a daily basis. Yet, whenever I do have time for a run or some sparring, the wind still seems to be there. Since I have been doing qigong off and on since the mid 80's, and noticed similar effects, I thought about what is similar between diving and qigong. Breathing is the answer. Diving requires you to breathe in a more conscious manner, especially on deeper dives. The main focus of qigong is on breathing. Aerobic exercise/jogging also makes one breathe more forcefully. Now, it may not be as simple as all that, and I'm not talking about heart rates, etc., but I believe that lung capacity can be maintained through breathing exercises alone. I'm not saying that all the same benefits are there, but I think that those of us who have been running 5K every day in an effort to maintain our fitness level might have been wasting time as well as contributing to the deterioration of our overall structural health. Steve ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Fox_hound @bolt.com" Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 19:24:38 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Swish of the kris Greetings all. I checked out that link posted in earlier on and one of them was a link call "Swish of the kris." I saw the logo and I thought "What a peculiar looking kris." I mean the blade was just crooked instead of having the unique curves a kris should have. One more thing, the link said that kris' all have wooden handles. I guess that's true for authentic ones, but I've seen a couple with rubber handles. Get your very own FREE, private e-mail account at http://mail.bolt.com ------------------------------ From: "Sovann D. Pen" Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 23:50:34 EST Subject: eskrima: toe-2-toe Alvis wrote: "well, considering that Steve would argue with Marc what color the sky is, the Tyson-Douglas fight is a poor example. Douglas did exactly what he wanted to do that fight, controlling the distance when he had to, and standing toe to toe when he had the advantage. " I thought this was a strange example at first but Douglas got in trouble, and almost lost the fight, when instead of countrolling the range with his jab he stood toe-to-toe and got hit with the uppercut. So, it is a good example of the risk of the lucky shot going toe-2-toe. He was dominating 99% of the fight. Sovann NW Karate for Christ ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ From: "steve reiter" Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 00:01:39 -0800 Subject: eskrima: last thoughts on toe 2 toe vs. footwork First to my detractors and nay sayers; let me reiterate what my first post on this thread over a month ago stated - I do not posse the talent nor the physical ability to use footwork in the proper way (I was left permanently disabled in a motorcycle accident 10 yrs ago) I was commenting on my personal observations of TRUE kali masters (and a few other) who have shown me what I believe true kali is all about. Second; I think that the absence of any pekiti guy's chiming in on this thread speaks volumes - the get in get out principle is one of the first things thought in pekiti and is a stronger underlining theme - perhaps they're a little to close to offend?? - Third; anyone who still thinks crash and bash works better - try it with a sword in your hand - lets see how egar you are to come charging into a live blade -yea I know all about Krabi Karabong, very linear, very strong, charge your opponent, IMHO a true kali master would eat up a Krabi guy, just as tuhon Gaje' ate up a world champion kendo guy, also very linear and charges in - I would like to note here that in my opinion some of the best stick fighters around (Eric Knause, Tom Bisio, Bill McGrath) were all original pekiti guys - and pekiti is a edged weapon based system - which obviously translates well enough to impact weapons to have made them all tournament Champion stick fighters - all taught with the get in and get out principle Fourth: this will be my last post on this thread since I now have to repeat myself and points I made over a month ago- Fifth: why the hell do you think there are footwork drills in kali anyway? so - on with show(down) Alvis: well, considering that Steve would argue with Marc what color the sky is> Me: How dare you make this statement - you dont know me or my relationship with Marc. I happen to agree with marc a number of time (although it's usually more philosophically and politically. I Like marc more than 50% of the time - it's just that some of his character flaws irk the hell outta me (you dont have to respond marc I'm sure you think the same about me) I only would disagree with Marc when he's incorrect and I'm right - Look I've been next to Marc in class enough to know what he can and cant do - I think he's a decent fighter, I think he's got more heart/balls than most, and I think he's a master at marketing himself - seems like your ready to follow him in a kool aid toast - I'm just not a sheep who thinks marc is a kali god - to hear some talk they think he invented it - I'm just not as impressed with someone who appeared in a video.Let alone the fact someone else was doing all the teaching. A good number of the fight seens in the video is eric beating up Marc. Marc didnt even come up with the idea of real contact stick fighting - Eric tells how tuhon Gaje' would have him and the other originals have "real contact" fights in the alleys of NYC. When Eric came out here to train with Dan he wanted to keep the fighting part of his training going and I guess it was Marc would wanted to be involved first. Although you dont know me I KNOW YOU. I was there when your attempt at crash and bash fail miserably against felix, who's superior footwork not only kept your every attack at bay (lameco foot courtesy Guro Edga,and Ron Ballicki), but because he was pummeling you so badly while you were trying to rush him, you started to use your free hand to block to avoid the multiple head shots and ended up with a broken arm. I know you broke your arm because I was finishing my private with Balicki when you and you guys walked in for your privates and you couldnt train because of the break. Alvis: the Tyson-Douglas fight is a poor example. Douglas did exactly what he wanted to do that fight - Me: - wrong - you make my point for me - my point is Tyson (like Arlan in this example) was overly confident - didnt train ect. and got his head handed to him by douglas- tyson figured he was much stronger ect. and could have his way with a inferior opponant. Alvis: -Look at Laban Luro 2 and the aggressive attitude Punong Guro displayed on that roof top. Me: I take a look at the tape - however I know Punong Guro used footwork extensively and since during my 5 years of privates with Balicki - one of Edgars top students- we have work Laban Luro drills - as a matter of fact it's required learning to be a instructor under him (which I am) - and I can tell you - there is certainly footwork in them there drills. Arlan: Once again, if I'm doing what I should, your footwork won't be doing you any good. Me: thats always the trick - isnt it - the same is said by both men - comes down to skill level. But I do Agree Arlan: It's easy to say you'll just do such and such to keep from getting hit or to get your hit in without being countered, but part of what I should be doing in a fight is making sure one of your stuff works. Me: I'm not knocking you or your skills - however I feel if everything is equal I feel the man with better foot work will beat the man with inferior footwork - I've seen you fight and because of your physical attributes your personal style works well - maybe that's why you like the krabi attacks - however I would be curious to see how it would work against someone like Erwin viarata (sp? - another org. pekit guy who was a champion - now trains All LEA in the state of Texas) or tom bisio would while smaller - are much quicker, have amazing footwork and are some of the best stick guys around - if you dont know them - I'm sure Eric can fill you in. or tuhon McGrath who's your size if not bigger - but still posses great foot work - it would be very interesting indeed - you might make a convert of me - or maybe I'd make one of you. Again no disrespect intended - but if your the biggest guy in town and always win your fights because of your physical attributes - what happens when someone with superior attributes comes to town - and what always worked no longer applies? Arlan: I've found most people can't handle a sustained heavy attack with footwork or anything else short of (a) closing, hoping you don't get clobbered, or (b) running away. Me: If they had mastered the footwork aspect I believe they wouldnt sustain a heavy attack they would simply keep side stepping, performing "z" and serpentine type patterns and would never be able to hit them, and you would tire yourself out - like trying to run after a little kid - they zig and zag - and you cant catch them and eventually give up - it was this kind of footwork guro dan used - to avoid/fend off punong guro edgar- when edgar decided to turn up the heat on dan just to see what he was made of: - dont you think edgar was trying to apply a heavily sustained attack - and again - you say most people - and I agree but my post dealt with masters who have truly mastered the footwork aspect - and that mastering the footwork aspect is really what kali is all about Arlan: My job in a fight once again is to make sure there are no "lucky shots" and if they happen were they lucky? I mean weren't they supposed to hit me anyway? I suppose the flip side would be I didn't get a "lucky block"! Me: again my point is I would rather not even be there for him to get the shot in in the first place - AGAIN - I would rather get in - hit - get out unscathed - period Arlan: Again, based on your perception that you could do that (get in/ get out) Me: Not me doing anything - but thats the way the masters I'm talking about do it. Guro Dan tells of how La coste' would lay on his back - and have him/others try to attack him full on, all out - and La coste' would disarm multiple stick attackers with his feet - you tell - do you think john La coste' could get in - beat you - and get out unscathed (assuming he was still alive - and not like 1000 yrs old) Arlan: My point was there are a lot of misconceptions about application by people who don't know how to fight Me: also alot of misconceptions by people who think they can fight just because they've beaten alot of people who cant fight - until they find some who can - I know I was the stud in my BJJ class cause I beat everyone, until I went to others schools and got my butt kicked - same holds true in jun fan - I beat everyone in my jkd class - thought I was a boxing stud - till I went against a seasoned fighter- I never hit him once. Jeff: What is difficult for beginners to see in a stick fight is the delicate balance of pressure between two fighters. Me: I'm not sure if your calling me a beginner or not - been at it 5 years in privates with Guro Ron Balicki - 2.5 in group classes with Guro insosanto - so i dont know if i'm a begginer to you or not - and dont really care if you think I am or not - again - you missed the point of the entire thread - go back re-read them all - the point was,is,and alway will be - kali is about footwork - it may take 50 yrs of training to have the kind of footwork i'm talking about - but IMO thats what kali is all about - why do you think tuhon gaje spent the first 3 years of his training doing nothing but footwork - I was speaking as to mastery of the art not the average kali practitioner of 5 - 10 yrs experience who goes and does gathering type fights - it's my contention that either you arent skilled enough at footwork, havent had the good fortune to see what good foot work - or havent been trained by anyone with good enough footwork if your making these types of statements - i'll assume the you, like just about everyone else goes to dans seminars at least once in awhile -- go ask him how important footwork is - and if he thinks someone with a mastery of footwork (like himself, or any of his teachers - see above ) could stay use it effectively enough to stay away - if La coste' could lay on his back and take everything dan had to throw at him at 60/70 yrs old - dont you think he would/could do even better standing/moving? To Carlton: yes we do agree completely - great post - purhaps more clear than i've been I've been using toe-to-toe to discribe what Arlan said he did in a few previous posts which was - literally stand toe-to-toe in a boxing kinda way (if he felt he was in a superior postion of strentgh skill ect.) and slug it out - like smokin joe or marciano would do. Carlton: Watch 2 fighters one really good one who sucks. Let the sucky guy try and run at you and hit you all he wants. Guess what ,if your footwork is any good he can't get close. Me:again - right on target animalmac: Me: while this wasnt posted to me I have a question - would you still go in hard and fast if he had a sword and you only had empty hands - what of styles who would/could use your hard/fast moving against you - like aikido / combat tia chi -/ silat ect. - just playing devils advocate - arent there time when hard and fast arent the best offense/defense sorry for the long post - hope this is the end of this thread - anyone wanting the last word can have it steve ------------------------------ From: sikal@yahoo.com Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 08:40:20 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #509 (fwd) << Again, based on your perception that you could do that, one of the biggest misconceptions I see in Martial arts is everybody thinks they are the one who's going to be kicking butt, if you're both thinking that, somebodies wrong. I try to do my training assuming the worst, that I will be completely out-classed in all areas, what should I do then >> At the Kun Tao Silat de Thouars Family Gathering in October, Dr. Andre KuntsGraichen of Pentjak Silat USA (a student of Rudy Terlinden's) was teaching. Something he does, which I found very interesting, was to occasionally start your defense with your partner's hand on you (i.e.: his fist resting on your chin or your cheek). Then your partner pushes. You interpret the line of his push, then do whatever comes naturally for you as a counter. This takes the training a baby step toward practicing to deal with a) getting hit in general and b) getting hit with a sucker punch. It was an interesting training exercise, and a lot of fun :-) Later, Mike ==== Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning. -- Rich Cook ==== ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:56:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #510 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.