From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #511 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sun, 12 Dec 1999 Vol 06 : Num 511 In this issue: eskrima: Scrotum etc. eskrima: Re: Silat eskrima: Funny Stuff:) eskrima: ART eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #510 eskrima: Mobility vs. Power eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Koblic Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 12:46:24 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Scrotum etc. >I did get a laugh about the scrotum vs sacrum issue. For all those >interested, Sacrum is to tailbone as Scrotum is to ball bag...similar >locations different animals. > Reminds me when in my youth I used to get folks sign a consent form. Instead of "orchidopexy" (release of undescended testicle) I got them to sign for "orchidectomy" (removal of testicle). Nothing maker the OR nurses scurry more quickly to look for what's left... (Sorry ray, no FMA content, promise not to do it again, honest!) Mike Koblic, Quesnel BC ------------------------------ From: Gints Klimanis Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 13:08:53 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Re: Silat eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com wrote: > From: sikal@yahoo.com > Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 08:40:20 -0500 > Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #509 (fwd) > > << Again, based on your perception that you could do that, one of the biggest > misconceptions I see in Martial arts is everybody thinks they are the one > who's going to be kicking butt, if you're both thinking that, somebodies > wrong. I try to do my training assuming the worst, that I will be completely > out-classed in all areas, what should I do then >> > > At the Kun Tao Silat de Thouars Family Gathering in October, Dr. Andre > KuntsGraichen of Pentjak Silat USA (a student of Rudy Terlinden's) was teaching. > Something he does, which I found very interesting, was to occasionally start > your defense with your partner's hand on you (i.e.: his fist resting on your > chin or your cheek). Then your partner pushes. You interpret the line of his > push, then do whatever comes naturally for you as a counter. This takes the > training a baby step toward practicing to deal with a) getting hit in general > and b) getting hit with a sucker punch. Dr. Andre likes to train his students to assume that the first punch will be "eaten." The silat player then moves in like an octopus for the kill. I appreciate his realistic philosophy of initial vulnerability, which is in stark contrast to the general karate/TKD "violation of personal space" mindset in which you assume that if you've been hit, you simply need to practice more blocking and evasion. Dr. Andre teaches an active, offensive art characterized by forward pressure. Most popular martial arts are reactive and defensive. Dr. Andre is a deluge of enlightenment. ------------------------------ From: AWSolis@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 17:48:06 EST Subject: eskrima: Funny Stuff:) Woof! To the list: I apologize, I normally just let stuff like this go :) Steve writes: > Alvis: well, considering that Steve would argue with Marc what color the sky > is> > Me: How dare you make this statement - you dont know me or my relationship > with Marc.. I stand by my statement...see previous issues of the digest. > Look I've been ext to Marc in class enough to know what he can and cant do - I > think he's a decent > fighter, I think he's got more heart/balls than most, Please....Steve, do yourself a favor and look at the tape where you spar Marc and wake up! Marc was babying you, although, believe it or not, he will not say that to you to spare your feelings...I kept my mouth shut the first time you brought it up out of respect to Ron. > and I think he's a master at marketing himself - seems like your ready to follow >him in a kool aid toast - I don't drink kool aid...I will have a beer with Marc though and toast his success > I'm just not a sheep who thinks marc is a kali god baaa baaa >- to hear some talk they think >he invented it - I'm just not as impressed with someone who appeared in a >video.Let alone the fact someone else was > doing all the teaching. A good number of the fight seens in the video > is eric beating up > Marc. Iif you cannot hear Marc in what Eric says in the videos, then you do not know Marc as well as you think. Please Steve, you really need to get that jealousy under control. There are so few (relatively) FMAs, that we should applaude each others' success. > Marc didnt even come up with the idea of real contact stick > fighting Marc has never claimed to. >Eric tells > how tuhon Gaje' would have him and the other originals have "real > contact" fights in the > alleys of NYC. When Eric came out here to train with Dan he wanted to > keep the fighting > part of his training going and I guess it was Marc would wanted to be > involved first. Get your Dog Bro. history correct.. Eric tried with a lot of people...Marc saw it as a chance to grow and he did....it takes guts to put yourself on video getting knocked out, and beat up while growing. BTW, Marc also tells how Eric and others fought long before they met. > Although you dont know me I KNOW YOU. Wrong again, I do know you. > I was there when your attempt at crash and bash fail miserably against felix, who's superior footwork not only kept your every attack at bay (lameco foot courtesy Guro Edga,and Ron Ballicki), but because he was pummeling you so badly while you were trying to rush him, you started to use your free hand to block to avoid the multiple head shots and ended up with a broken arm. I know you broke your arm because I was finishing my private with Balicki when you and you guys walked in for your privates and you couldnt train because of the break.>>> Out of respect to Felix I will leave out most of my commentary regarding that fight. And that fight was a great learning experience for me. Yes, I ended up with a broken left arm, You make it sound like I stopped fighting because of my break, but thats not true...I stopped because I had gotten the advantage and accidentally thrusted Felix in the ear. I trained with Ron, Burton, and the Machados with my broken arm the next couple of days, plus listened to Marc's verbal lessons about my fight. There was some stuff that I could not do left handed, but I pretty much participated in my lessons. > Alvis: the Tyson-Douglas fight is a poor example. Douglas did exactly what > he wanted to do that fight - > Me: - wrong - you make my point for me - my point is Tyson (like Arlan in > this example) > was overly confident - didnt train ect. and got his head handed to > him by douglas- > tyson figured he was much stronger ect. and could have his way with > a inferior opponant. I would love to see you in front of Arlan and say he doesn't train hard at a Gathering. The point I was making was that Douglas used the footwork that was right for the moment, each moment of the fight. > Alvis: -Look at Laban Luro 2 and the aggressive attitude Punong Guro > displayed on that roof top. > Me: I take a look at the tape - however I know Punong Guro used footwork > extensively and since during my 5 years of privates with Balicki - one of > Edgars top students- we have work Laban Luro drills - as a matter of fact it's required > learning to be a instructor under him (which I am) - and I can tell you - there is > certainly footwork in them there drills. Here comes the funny part...I am an instructor under Ron Balicki as well, he is my friend...I was an instructor under Burton but I no longer represent his organization...I am also a Dog Brother and Dog Brother instructor. I am also an instructor under Alfonso Seneres...I must be doing something right as I am currently in the planning stages with Ron to do Arnis videos for Point Man Productions. I will be in California in May for the Gathering and sometime before then to possibly shoot the videos...I would love for you to show me how effective your footwork is against my "crash and bash". Thanks for the last word! Woof! Alvis W. Solis Hound Dog! I have a stick in my hand and a gleam in my eye!! LOL! ------------------------------ From: George Wang Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:35:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: ART "From: Joshua Hutchinson Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 16:38:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: Marc Denny's aching scrotum... I mean sacrum! - --------- Hi, If you're having problems with injuries, please check out ART ( Active Release Techniques). It's a form of mysofascial release. It has done wonders for my shoulder. The ART practitioner tries to break up adhesions in the muscles, scarring etc. The inventor is Dr Leahy. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S." Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 23:35:19 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #510 Steve, The Last word? This is just getting interesting. Regards, - ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "steve reiter" > Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 00:01:39 -0800 > Subject: eskrima: last thoughts on toe 2 toe vs. footwork > > Marc. Marc didnt even come up with the idea of real contact stick > fighting - Eric tells > how tuhon Gaje' would have him and the other originals have "real > contact" fights in the > alleys of NYC. When Eric came out here to train with Dan he wanted to > keep the fighting > part of his training going and I guess it was Marc would wanted to be > involved first I do not know what Tuhon Gaje was doing but in 1974 Guro I and Guro B classes phase 3 and above fought full contact in open everyday classes. It was nothing special except only the upper class guys got to do it. I can think of at least one time when things were broken too. Some guys would use gear (most) some guys would use minimum to no gear. Furthermore, Guro I constantly preached how we could not learn what we needed to learn just by going to his class. He preached personal research amoung friends as in study groups and trainging with other instructors which gave rise to the whole problem of too many guys with keys to the gym. Later late filipino kali academy to early IMB academy the heavy sparring slowed due to the threats of lawsuits and liability insurance issues. Now it is safety glasses mandatory and what else? Regardless heavy contact only teaches some skills. There is much more to the game. It should not be overemphasized or given too much credence. There are some things that heavy contact just doesn't teach. > To Carlton: yes we do agree completely - great post - purhaps more clear > than i've been Well from my perspective "right" knows no personality or politics! > animalmac: prevent him > from hurting me.> > Me: while this wasnt posted to me I have a question - would you still go in > hard and fast if he > had a sword and you only had empty hands I say absolutely yes. You cannot let the man with a superior tool feel you out at long range and learn your mobility or he will control the range. You have to blast him with footwork and do your best in corto to bring your most wicked tools to bear while using environment to sway the odds in your favor and you protect that range until such time that your footwork fails to control the game. Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Redondo Beach, Ca. ------------------------------ From: "BILL MCGRATH" Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 09:06:55 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Mobility vs. Power Steve Reiter asked: "to tuhon bill: a few issues back Arlan (org. dog bro.) and I where having a discussion on what's better - to use foot work or to stand toe to toe and duke it out - being a imposing figure of a man, who's stature is foreboding - standing around 6'0 give or take, and about 250 lbs. give or take - I'm sure you can go toe to toe and duke it out with the best of them - which is why I want to pose this query to you in particular - would you, when faced with a fight, be it on the street or in the ring - or at a gathering/lion heart tourney prefer to stand toe to toe, mano-a-mano - exchange blows, and see who's left standing - or would you prefer to use foot work - get in - strike "x" number of blows - get out (of range - hopefully unscathed) - repeat process until your adversary is duly punished?" Steve's question on footwork vs. "toe to toe" aggression brings up some interesting points. If I was training solely for a specific sport, with rules and armor, then I might be willing to go toe to toe with a smaller opponent and smother him with more power. However, if one is using sport sparring as a training aid for combat, then you should bring the concerns you must face in combat into the ring. For example: If Mike Tyson were to fight Sugar Ray Leonard (both at their prime) in a sport boxing match, it would be foolish for Tyson to play Leonard's game and try to out jab and out dance him. Pressing foreword and going "toe to toe" with a boxer half his bodyweight but twice his speed would be the smart thing for Tyson to do. Now think about Tyson and Leonard engaged in a knife fight (which, I think, goes to the heart of Steve's original question regarding the ultimate goal of our training in the FMAs - combat). Fighting "toe to toe" and trading stab for stab would be the personal equivalent of the superpower's cold war strategy of M.A.D. (Mutually Assured Destruction). Just one thrust in the wrong place can ruin your whole day. The larger issue Steve's post raises is when to emphasize a mobility based strategy and when to use one based on power. If you read Lao Tzu's "The Art of War", Musashi's "Book of Five Rings", or my favorite book on strategy, B.H. Liddell Hart's "Strategy" you will see that this is a very old question. Which attribute is most useful? History tells us that both are useful at the proper time. From ancient horse cavalry, to the modern equivalent - the armored cavalry (review the mobility based tactics the Israeli tank units used during the six day war), to guerrilla warfare, to FMA footwork against armed multiple opponents, mobility has shown its worth. A strength based strategy has been used successfully by the ancient Roman legions, modern troops ambushing an opposing force and countless muggers ambushing a victim. Thinking about the way Tuhon Gaje would train a wide variety of students down through the years, I would say that for us in the FMAs the mobility vs. power debate is more complex than the obvious "use mobility when he can hurt you bad with one shot and power when he can't " theory. Tuhon Gaje would often divide students into groups based on certain natural abilities. One of these groups I'll call "Fighters" and another "Technicians". The "Fighters" were fearless and aggressive by nature, always pressing the attack foreword. They had good power but often lacked fluidity when they first came to train and their footwork was based on charging straight in. They would often take a hit on the way in, but once they got in... The "Technicians" found that learning and understanding techniques came easily, but they were prone to overanalyze a fight and not get the job done quickly. This could lead to them getting smothered by a larger "Fighter." Technicians seemed inclined to fight from the outside, using footwork to "stick and move" avoiding an exchange of blows. How did Tuhon Gaje train these two groups of students? Time and time again I remember seeing him take the fighters (i.e. the "power" people) and work them on footwork and fluidity; and have seen him take the technicians (the "mobility" people) and work them on power and aggressiveness. To put it another way, he would take the courageous guy and give him more smarts and take the smart guy and give him more courage. When I have a big, strong, naturally aggressive student, I try to get him to throttle back a bit so he doesn't play the "bull" to a smarter opponent who wants to play "matador" (remember, there's a blade behind that cape). You could say that I try to teach the "bull" to move and think like a "matador". With most students however, I like to end each class trying to put a little "animal" aggression into them, drilling a single aggressive attack combination over and over again so it will come out during the stress of a fight without their thinking about it. One of the biggest hurdles martial arts instructors have to overcome in modern western society is getting a student to be sufficiently powerful, aggressive and courageous in a fight. This was not much of a problem in the Philippines when the techniques and drills we are learning were being developed. Could this be why we see such a strong emphasis in the FMAs on teaching fluidity and footwork? Because the power to damage an opponent is inherent in the blade so much time is spent learning to counter that power. I think what Marc and Eric are trying to do with the Dog Bros. is taking people from a society of hydrophobics and dropping them into the deep end of the pool to overcome their fear of the water. What we had (and still have) in the Philippines, is a society were many kids grew up in the water, therefore you teach them the great variety of strokes they need to be world class swimmers. Once the hydrophobe has lost his fear of the water, you then work on the mechanics of swimming (or once the technician has developed good power and aggression, you go back to working on his counter punching). Once the good swimmer has mastered the mechanics of all the strokes, you then concentrate on finding and developing the stroke that will win him a gold medal (or once the fighter has developed fluidity and footwork, you go back to working on his power punch). At the end of their training, I bet both swimmers (and fighters) will look a lot alike. Regards, Tuhon Bill McGrath ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 07:22:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #511 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.