From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #516 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Wed, 15 Dec 1999 Vol 06 : Num 516 In this issue: eskrima: Concept for the Floor eskrima: FMA in the movies eskrima: More footie stuff eskrima: various eskrima: response to alvis (the edited version) eskrima: training with marc eskrima: UFA Web Site & Book eskrima: Looking for Dieter Knuttel's email address eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TaoArt@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 18:10:44 EST Subject: eskrima: Concept for the Floor Greetings. I was just brushing up on some of my reading today and came across a concept that I thought I'd throw out to the list for discussion... During a conflict there are 3 battlegrounds that I can identify: 1) Psychological (emotional state, can also be called "spiritual") 2) Mental (as in mental resources, awareness, knowledge, etc) 3) Physical (can vary from simple body language or repositioning to grappling/striking) Now I know that these three battlegrounds often overlap... body language and voice inflection can play a big part in the psychological game, knowledge can directly relate to the effectiveness of a physical strike, etc. Can anyone find another battleground that lies outside these three? M. Gardner www.guardup.com "The people who get on in this world are the people who get up and look for the circumstances they want, and, if they can't find them, make them." George Bernard Shaw ------------------------------ From: Sidney525@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:03:07 EST Subject: eskrima: FMA in the movies For FMA in the movies, check out Hawk's Vengence with Cass Magda. It has some of the best FMA stuff I have seen in the movies. I got my copy from Blockbusters so it shouldn't be that hard to find. There is even a little silat in it. Sid Stein FKEAC ------------------------------ From: Rocky Pasiwk Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 00:14:17 -0500 Subject: eskrima: More footie stuff Kim wrote > Sorry Rocky, but I really have to disagree with you here...I hate to keep > beating the drum of my experiences in corrections, but for the past 15 years > I have had to defend myself and others in "real life" assaultive situations, > Right and Wrong , I know LEO's and the like, like to believe they have the most realistic points of view because of their jobs. However according to hundreds of LEO's and CO's I have trained with over the years, you are usually accompanied by someone, and even when things get out of control, unless a full blown riot occurs, you still have more control than say a single or maybe pair of bouncers with 500 people in a club. Because everyone you are dealing with you know is a criminal, it gives you an edge as far as keeping on your toes. I agree that maybe your training, and the added sense of awareness that develops during training has probably gotten you out of situations that others might not of. But I simply don't believe that fancy footwork is what you used, it was probably more like subtle, simple , and to an untrained person probably not noticeable footwork. Ask any bouncer who has had to deal with someone whom they totally did not expect trouble from, just how easy it is to react with large gross movements in the foyer of a club which is about 1/3 the size af a cell you are talking about. I once had this freak about 6'5 or bigger and every bit of 300lbs take a swing at me, while I was sitting on a stool welcoming people into my friends club in Detroit, since my feet weren't on the ground, and I was real lucky and caught the sucker punch coming out of the corner of my eye I was able to slip it and he broke his hand real bad on the brick wall behind me. When I did come off the stool between the 2 of us their was barely enough room to break wind if you know what I mean. So my foot work consisted of just maintaining my balance and off balancing him with my head coming under his chin. Now what I think what might have been misunderstood in my last post was that if I had room and time I probably would have used a little different and perhaps noticeable foot work to flank or offset him do to his size. Foot work is used to compensate for the actions of the body, if you use your legs to get your head out of the way once your in the "Contact zone" (a term we use in Cuentada DeMano, for the zone in which your opponent can reach out and touch you) you will get tagged. The head/body will evade and your feet will follow. Like when a boxer slips by using head movement then slightly steps to his right or left to cross back with a straight right or left. ( sometimes referred to as the Brewster shuffle or side step, of course only real boxers from Detroit would know this term :-) So the closer you get the tighter and less fancy your foot work becomes and the more you will have to depend on body displacement.. Basically what I was trying to say is the more complex you make the plumbing the easier it is to stuff up!! My father always said good foot work is hard to find, and even harder to see. Rocky Pasiwk Founder of Cuentada DeMano, Chief instructor Anciong's Balintawak P.S I was recently invited to train in an African art called HAHHA ( sp ) or something to that affect does anyone know what it is?? ------------------------------ From: "steve reiter" Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 22:15:44 -0800 Subject: eskrima: various to Nolan Hernandez - Jeff Speakman was taught some kali by a student (instructor) of guro dans (i believe he's in texas) - jeff took what he learnt and incorporated it into his art (kenpo) - and now it's "kenpo" sticks - nothing new - i think many arts/people see something that works and incorporate it and make it their own - only jeff never gave credit where it was due - and supposedly the instructor got real pissed - as far as other films go - there's tons of them - Jeff Amada is one of the top stunt coordinator's in the business - he is also one of only two senior instructor under guro dan - the other senior instructor is a stunt man - so the art works it's way into most fight scene's choreographed by jeff/damon Marc writes:<... and just wanted to take a moment to say that Steve Reiter came up and spoke to me at the Tuhon Chris Sayoc seminar on Sunday and that we've shaken hands on taking a fresh start.> I'd like to add a bit to this post- I approached marc so as to clear up any misunderstandings or misconstruments - marc (and a few others) felt that i was talking jabs at him - i told him 1st off - he should have called me if he had been offend - he said he'd rather just let it fly - i explained that i never intentionally meant to put him down or sully him in anyway - I had pointed to various praises of him in posts - he felt that the praise was only to "thinly" veil some put downs - included in the same posts - after he explained what he felt was my jabs - i understood what he meant - and assured him this wasnt my intent - but could see how he might have taken it "wrong" - he also said he totally saw it from my prospective as well - interestingly - we agreed on the much debated crash/bash vs. footwork topic as well - while we did agree to start anew - i never meant him any harm so it's really not anew - more like being a little more cognizant of people's perceptions to utterances i might make - HOW WAS THAT FOR WEST COAST TECHNICAL LINGUISTICS.- steve ------------------------------ From: "steve reiter" Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 22:42:02 -0800 Subject: eskrima: response to alvis (the edited version) Alvis writes: > alvis: I stand by my statement...see previous issues of the digest. ME: interesting Today at the sayoc kali seminar marc and i had a very, very long talk - Marc wasnt even sure what i meant by most of my posts - while he said he was leary about my intentions and thought that my some of my posts MIGHT have taken some swipes at him - when i explain my position on alot of my postes where i mentioned him - he totally understood my meaning - and i understood where he might have misconstrued what i was saying as potential jabs at him - i told him he should have called me up if he had a problem and we could settle it instead of it feastering - he thought it was best just to go our own way at the time - but since we had the oppertunity to hash it out and see each others sides/motives/intent - we ended the day as friends with a better understanding of where each other was coming from - went to diner with several others and had a pleasant time > ALVIS: Please....Steve, do yourself a favor and look at the tape where you spar Marc and wake up! Marc was babying you, although, believe it or not, he will not say that to you to spare your feelings...I kept my mouth shut the first time you brought it up out of respect to Ron.> Me: several weeks ago my post clearly stated that I fought marc 5 years ago - WITH ONLY 3 MONTHS TRAINING IN FMA - (or any MA for that matter) I said i didnt know whether or not he was taking it easy on me (i never asked him till tonight). I stated i thought i did ok single strick, but when we moved on to double stick, with me wearing doce parres head gear (for that match) he beat me rather soundly - in very short time like 15 or 30 seconds - he hit me so hard it actually made me hear bells - I said to numerous people numerous times - even this, i found out to, was misconstrude by marc - hear i'm paying him a compliment - saying he hit me harder than i've ever been hit (I always thought that hearing bells stuff was bull) - through major head gear no less, and marc, being leary of my intent - thought that maybe i was saying - of he went too hard on someone with only 3 month experience - again now i know variuous things - i can see why marc was leary of anything i said - >ALVIS: I don't drink kool aid...I will have a beer with Marc though and toast his success> ME: - guess you missed the jim jones/peoples temple cult following, mass suicide thing > ALVIS: I'm just not a sheep who thinks marc is a kali god baaa baaa> ME: i wasnt speaking of you in particular - but if the wool fits... (only kidding - was gonna take it out with the other offensive things but i thought it was too funny so i left it in as a joke - instead of the dig i origianlly meant it as) Me: I hear marc doing play by play comentary on the fights - it's been alittle time since i view the tapes - but i honestly dont remember marc teaching any teachniques at all. If he did then i'm wrong about whether or not he taught on the video's - it still doesnt mean i'm impressed with some just cause he put out a video - or think marc is a kali god - as a matter of fact - I still stand by what i said about the gatherings not being kali at all - it's stick fighting - they got BJJ mixed in, krabi karabong mixed in, and various other MA's - I saw a kendo guy at the last gathering - I still feel they play a game of crash and bash - and IMO thats not the way kali was developed or meant to be practiced/applied- Me: what do i have to be jealous of ? - i have no asperations of making my living at MA - I'm a very sucessful independant computer consultant - and i make quite a good living at it - happy right where i am - no books/video's to sell - never tried to hold a seminar (although i was asked by a friend to come to NY and hold a grappling seminar, because his stick fighters had no ground experience - and he wanted to give his guy's options - in the event they had to go to the ground) dont want/have any students (not that i havent been asked to teach) because i'm too consumed with my own training - and have only appeared in magazines at the request of finds who wanted me to dummy for them - although martial arts illustrated asked me to right a piece for them, which is as of yet has not been published - again i was sought out - not the other way around - and when/if the article is published - you will find no info on how to contact me for lessons/seminars ect. - i happen to think my kali skills are better them marc's (i'm sure he feels the same about his over mine) so whats to be jealous about ? - i dont begrudge anyone success - like i've said, i think marc's a master at marketing - whether or not here's substance behind the product is of little consequence - i love sucess stories - sear's - micro soft - famous amos - all of them. >ALVIS: Marc has never claimed to.come up with the idea of real contact stick fighting> Me: missed the point - there are those who have so much hero worship (not mentioning anyone inparticular) who thinks he did - or at least is the definitive answer to it. I was mearly pointing out - i dont hero worship - ALSO - i was not the one who brought MARC into this - you did - marc posted his views - i disagreed with them ( the supposed purpose of ED - free flow and exchange of idea's) - in marc's own style of writing he said no one could argue... - in my own (playful) way i said i would argue that point - with marc....i dont think you ever even considering that purhaps others might think i was making a valid point (or even marc might think so.. which by the way he told me he thought i had many vallid points on this and other posts - as i told him the same) >ALVIS: Get your Dog Bro. history correct.. Eric tried with a lot of people...Marc saw it as a chance to grow and he did....it takes guts to put yourself on video getting knocked out, and beat up while growing. BTW, Marc also tells how Eric and others fought long before they met.> ME: - I have said in my posts of past that everyone should full contact fight - that it helps them grow - I said one should spar in every MA they train - no problem with marc (or anyone there - dont see your point) as far as my DB history - I did say "I GUESS IT WAS MARC" however the point and morale of the story was it was eric's idea - not even a knoc to marc - marc on countless occasions has stated publicly Eric's the fighting force behind the dog bros. and that he (marc) is the (i hope i dont get this wrong - if i do appologies to marc) the guiding force behind dbma - i really dont want to be a dbma historian thank you >ALIVIS: Wrong again, I do know you.> Me: I'm flattered - and here i didnt hink you cared (another little joke) >ALVIS:Out of respect to Felix I will leave out most of my commentary regarding that fight. And that fight was a great learning experience for me. Yes, I ended up with a broken left arm, You make it sound like I stopped fighting because of my break, but thats not true...> Me: no I only said you ended up with a broken arm because of the crash and bash method you employed >ALVIS: I trained with Ron, Burton, and the Machados with my broken arm the next couple of days, plus listened to Marc's verbal lessons about my fight. There was some stuff that I could not do left handed, but I pretty much participated in my lessons.> Me: i remembered you not being able to train with Ron - however - he told me you did train one handed - my bad - however that doesnt obviate that fact, or point i was making, that your crash and bash technique was bested by felix's foot work, and as a result, you ended up with a broken arm on that particular day. although on some other day thing may have turned out differently - > Alvis: the Tyson-Douglas fight is a poor example. Douglas did exactly what he wanted to do that fight - > Me: - I think your make my point for me - my point is Tyson (like Arlan in > this example) was overly confident - didnt train ect. and got his head handed to > him by douglas- tyson figured he was much stronger ect. and could have his way > with a inferior opponant. >ALVIS: I would love to see you in front of Arlan and say he doesn't train hard at a Gathering. Me: I never said Arlan doesnt train hard - I never said Arlan cant kick some serious ass - I never said I could beat Arlan - I never said I had any sort of problem with Alran - and I hope he doesnt have one with me - I feel arlan and i where expressing different points of view. actually it started to get a little personal, when it shouldnt have -- I"LL SAY IT AGAIN - In my reply to chad's post - my comments where i believe true kali was meant to utilize footwork to gain tactical advantages over your oppenant - i believe no style/system was not developed to stand toe-to-toe and have a slug fest - and that even if I had superior skills/strenght/ what ever - kali still wasnt made for toe-to-toe most kali systems where designed for multiple opponent warfare - TO ARLANS CREDIT - he did specifiy that edged weapons would change his game, and i suspect multiple attackers who change his game as well - you cant stand in front of someone and only engage them - when you have six others behind you coming for your back - I think the multiple knife fights senerious shows that quite well - and kudos to who ever (marc?) for coming up with the idea - it shows how you must GET IN AND GET OUT (gee where did we hear that before)and deal with other attackers >ALVIS: The point I was making was that Douglas used the footwork that was right for the moment, each moment of the fight.> ME: - thank you for making my point about footwork over brute stenght - finally a lucid thought - so why are we arguing ??? > Alvis: -Look at Laban Luro 2 and the aggressive attitude Punong Guro > displayed on that roof top. Me: reviewed the tape - he was doing/show a drill - not really a example of how he fight's i have also reviewed private tapes of punong edar sparring - he's using TONS of foot work - >ALVIS:I will be in California in May for the Gathering and sometime before then to possibly shoot the videos...I would love for you to show me how effective your footwork is against my "crash and bash". ME: HERE WE GO AGAIN - the post had nothing to do with me or my abilities - time, after time, after time, I said I was speaking about kali masters i've seen use THEIR footwork to out manuever, evade, ect... thats why i believe kali is about footwork not toe-to-toe (geez it's so tiring to have to repeat yourself 1000's of times - i dont envy anyone with kids) I have said the same 9000 times - that i'm permanantly disabled from a motorcycle accident that left me with a bum ankle - that i still have a steel bar and 9 screws in after 10 yrs. I also said the same number of times that even if both feet/legs/ankled did work 100% - that i dont posess the skill level in my footwork to do the kind of footwork i'm speaking of - - - you'll have to go to someone more deft and able for a lesson in footwork, unless you would like to take it real slow- then i'd be happy to teach you what i've learned about how footwork is supposed to be applied under thoughs conditions - Ron is very adept at footwork - i'm sure he'd be happy to show you some - although i must admit - i have a personal preference to the way pekiti uses footwork - steve ------------------------------ From: "steve reiter" Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 22:45:35 -0800 Subject: eskrima: training with marc just got out of class where i had a pleasant experience with marc as my training partner - geez - all of the y2k apocalyptic prophase's must be coming true - all nations at peace - end of mankind - ect. steve ------------------------------ From: Patrick Davies Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:58:08 -0000 Subject: eskrima: UFA Web Site & Book Marc McFann has a new website and book coming out. FYI http://members.aol.com/marcmcfann/myhomepage/index.html AND, AFTER A LONG WAIT, THE FIRST BOOK! THE SIDE CONTROL POSITION "Submitting and Controlling" This book is approximately 80 pages long and covers three different variations of the Side Control Position. This volume contains over a hundred photos demonstrating arm locks, wrist locks, chokes, finger locks, leg locks and escapes from these positions. Each technique is clearly explained and easy to follow. The book is 5"X8" which makes it perfect to carry in your training bag. The book sells for $9.95 plus shipping & handling. ------------------------------ From: Scott Wiggins Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:19:30 +0000 Subject: eskrima: Looking for Dieter Knuttel's email address Hi, I am looking for Dieter Knuttel's email address if anybody can give it to me please. Or his web page. I am trying to find out if there are any Eskrima schools in the Munich areas of Germany as I will be spending some time over there shortly and I want to know how I stand to continue my training. Cheers, Scott Wiggins Scott@home-cov.demon.co.uk http://www.home-cov.demon.co.uk/index.htm ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:06:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #516 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in directory pub/eskrima/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.