From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #518 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Thur, 16 Dec 1999 Vol 06 : Num 518 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #516 eskrima: owkinawa eskrima: rules of kali - eskrima: a FREE ADS site on me eskrima: travis eskrima: LEOs Re: eskrima: travis eskrima: Chi etc. eskrima: Sucker punches etc. eskrima: Sorry I said anything to begin with eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #516 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #516 eskrima: best knife fighters eskrima: Re: The footwork thing eskrima: Periodic announcement: SDFW mailing list eskrima: steve reiter eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #516 eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Inayan Eskrima, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 FMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MdlAgdLftr@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:01:02 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #516 >>I know that LEO's and the like, like to believe that they have the most realistic view because of their jobs<< It took me a while to cool off before responding to this comment. It doesn't get more real than countless incidents I've witnessed over the years, like the 230 lb ex-marine who spent a week in intensive care after having his sternum caved in against his heart, or the female officer taken away in an ambulance after being hit over the head with a metal chair (took us all day to clean up the blood after that one), or the female probation officer who had the stuffing beaten out of her in her own office before we could respond...I could go on here for a long time, believe me. Rocky, all I can say is try the job before dismissing what we face so flippantly. I know you say you've talked to a lot of LEO's and CO's...well, anyone who tells you it isn't the real world is lying, period. With all due respect for what you face as a bouncer, the folks we face are usually institutionalized, have no sense of remorse, and are capable of extreme violence at the drop of a hat...probably since they live in a world where being the most violent insures their status and survival. To dismiss our situation so easily is a gross injustice. >>I simply don't believe that fancy footwork is what you used<< Believe it...but also I refer you to the clarification to my post that I made in the same digest. For the record, many of my coworkers are currently, or have been, bouncers, and they all agree that there is little difference in the jobs. Both jobs are hazardous as hell, both require a high degree of awareness, and both have a high attrition rate for the workers. There isn't one pat answer to every situation; in fact, there are as many POV's as there are arts out there. What we need to do is learn to appreciate what each of us as individuals, with experiences of our own, can bring to the table when discussing "real world" experience. Kim Satterfield ------------------------------ From: "steve reiter" Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 18:05:39 -0800 Subject: eskrima: owkinawa hi dave - I know of speakman thing is true - guro dan talks about it - purhaps someone else knows the name of the guy -- Ron?? - anyway - guro dan often talks about fillipinos' being stranded/ship wrecked in owkinawa - in fma it's the jawwa - a filipino farming tool turned weapon - in owinawa (once the sailor's brought it) it turned into the sia (sp?) - indonesia has a similar weapon - so maybe the stick thing was also influenced by fma - as a side note - supposedly the fma's got thier stick stuff from india - guttka and lotti (sp?) - great post script btw- steve ------------------------------ From: "steve reiter" Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 18:15:48 -0800 Subject: eskrima: rules of kali - drew writes: no rule -- i was saying that other arts are in gatherings - was the kendo guy doing kali of kendo - when you go to the ground and start using BJJ - are you still using kali?? - one has nothing to do with the other - my point - since you totally missed it - is the fighters- most of whom cross train - have brought other arts to the table when stick fighting - not just sticking to kali - dont know how you came to the conclucion that if you fight fma - against a non fma your not fma - seems like a mighty big jump one i never even remotely eluded to - purhaps you should read the whole digest - i've stated that tuhon gaje - using fma - beat a world champ kendo guy - that fma was superior (because of footwork) to static arts - like kendo - steve ps - dont have time right know - but will adress (if i can the fma geting started ) although see other post about india arts - ------------------------------ From: Ernie Aragon Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:21:16 +0800 Subject: eskrima: a FREE ADS site on me Hello there. My name is Ernie Aragon, Jr. from the Philippines and I've been a lurker here for some time now. I keep seeing that many people post their ads for books and tapes here. Well, I would like to offer a free ads website I'm creating as another venue where you could advertise your seminars, tapes, books, and anything under the sun (cars for sale, services that can be offered, a computer that you want to sell, things that you want to trade, etc.) It's going to be updated monthly and right now I'm collecting ads for the January (launching) issue. I'm also planning to put a special section for FMA ads and an online ENGLISH-FILIPINO DICTIONARY. If you want a particular word or words to be included in the dictionary, please e-mail me. You could e-mail me at the following address: to post your ads. Please also include your , and/or and . I promise that you won't be spammed or your names and e-mails sold to mailing lists. My free ads webpage's first issue will be on January 2000. It will be at http://www.skybusiness.com/aragon . The maximum number of characters for the free ads would be around 300. You can send as many ads as you desire per issue. Please feel free to invite others not on this list to advertise on my page and to see your ads posted there. Thank you very much and MABUHAY to you all. Sincerely yours, Ernie Aragon, Jr. P.S. I hope my letter is not out of line. Thanks. ------------------------------ From: "steve reiter" Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 18:19:27 -0800 Subject: eskrima: travis AMEN BROTHER - just when i thought i was out - they pull me back in - funny that was one of the worst lines in any movie i ever saw - but oh how those words ring true - even though i said i wouldnt comment anymore - when poeple keep directing things at me - i cant help myself - i have to respond - no ones wants to move on more than me -- steve ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:01:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: LEOs > say is try the job before dismissing what we face so flippantly. I know you > say you've talked to a lot of LEO's and CO's...well, anyone who tells you it > isn't the real world is lying, period. Kim, not to worry. Some talk to LEOs, others are LEOs. I know which to believe... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 18:57:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: eskrima: travis > words ring true - even though i said i wouldnt comment anymore - when poeple > keep directing things at me - i cant help myself - i have to respond - Try harder... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Michael Koblic Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:27:59 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Chi etc. Tuhon McGrath: >After 6 weeks I noticed that all of my "Chi" building >exercises came rather easily to me. The question was, I think, the other way round: will practice of Chi exercises improve aerobic fitness without demonstrable increase in the pulse rate during their performance. My contention is that it does or at least prevents deterioration in aerobic capacity in a situation where one cannot run 5 miles a day. I would not go as far as saying that chi kungs will replace the roadwork, but has anybody tried this seriously? For me personally such proof would be like manna from heaven as roadwork seriously screws up my knees... Mike Koblic, Quesnel BC ------------------------------ From: Michael Koblic Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:32:09 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Sucker punches etc. Me:><< How about a sample chapter here on ED... >> > >Animal: how about a sample topic? Pick a topic any topic... OK, assailant standing facing me, less than arm's length, asking something like "is that your wallet sir?", punch coming from his right hand as an uppercut (i.e. no hauling off etc.). Counter? If this is too specific, say let's see your chapter on "sucker punches" or such like... Mike Koblic, Quesnel BC ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:06:40 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Sorry I said anything to begin with A Howl of Greeting to All: steve reiter, in some post "last word" commentary wrote: > I still stand by what i said about the gatherings not being kali at > all - it's stick fighting - they got BJJ mixed in, krabi karabong mixed in, > and various other MA's - I saw a kendo guy at the last gathering - I still > feel they play a game of crash and bash - and IMO thats not the way kali was > developed or meant to be practiced/applied- The Gatherings are a non-denominational search for truth, hosted by yours truly on behalf of the Dog Brothers via the vehicle of Dog Brothers Inc. Martial Arts for reasons of personal protection from lawsuits. Thus, while most of the fighters are FMA, many are not. As I commented previously in a piece offering some thoughts on watching the fights, there are many levels of fighters at a Gathering. I certainly agree that many of the fights are rock 'em sock 'em robot affairs (I use this term to distinguish C&B which, as Rocky notes, can be a wonderful and sound technique) that do exploit the gear and one would hope that fighters who experience such a fight will go back to their training with a improved perception of where they are at in their development. There are also fighters and fights at a really high level with some stellar Kali on display, including footwork. While Top Dog is in his own league in this regard in my opinion, that does not mean he is the only one out there manifesting good Kali. It is understandable that much of this goes unrecognized by many. Good stickfighting, including good Kali, can be very subtle, very quick and very hard to see. > martial arts illustrated asked me to right a piece > for them, which is as of yet has not been published - This could be an interesting one folks, I gather it is on "How to beat the Dog Brothers". One hopes there will be an editor to help clean up the "righting" ;-). > i dont begrudge anyone > success - like i've said, i think marc's a master at marketing - whether or > not here's substance behind the product is of little consequence - i love > sucess stories - sear's - micro soft - famous amos - all of them. I can't imagine where I get the idea that there are insults mixed in with the compliments , , , I confess to being far enough from Buddhahood to comment on this matter of "marketing". If I was about money, I sure wouldn't be in martial arts in general or stickfighting in particular or losing money for over 10 years on this mission. I wouldn't be "out there for all to see" risking my alleged rep as "Kali god" (???). What I am doing is proselytizing in something I believe in passionately. I'd do it for free if I could but yes, I need it to make some money so that I can continue to do this, to live this, and to be this. My idea is to go equally in opposing directions, to balance the yin and the yang if you will. The full credo is "The greater the dichotomy the profounder the transformation. Higher Consciousness through Harder Contact". There's no judges. It is up to you, not others, to make of it what you will. There's no referees. Only you are responsible for you. Look only to yourself to protect yourself and protect yourself at all times. There's no bragging. You are out there for all to see, so of what use the bragging? Let others decide upon the substance of it all. There's no trophies. You do it for your own growth, not the recognition of others. There's only one rule: be friends at the end of the day. We fight as if we are members of the same tribe, preparing ourselves to defend our land, our women, and our children. We fight to strengthen the tribe, to strengthen the pack-- as well as ourselves. Thus in the high adrenal state, which is a deep learning state, we learn that our ego has its place in a greater scheme of things. Its not a sword, its not a magic wand, its a stick; probably the first weapon, the first tool, we picked up since we fell out of the trees. No, it is not a death match, but if you get out there you are putting yourself on the line in a very real, very primal way. The only public venue we can fight in is in a NHB event on an Indian Reservation beyond the reach of the safety nazis who see us as property of an omnipotent state and would neuter all those with more testosterone than they. It IS a fight and you are chancing that you will get damaged. You are chancing that your life could be changed in an instant. There's nothing like a stick buzzing by your head to put you in the here and now and clarifying just which self it is you wish to defend. I've kicked ass and I've had my ass kicked (only twice by non DBs over the course of some 140 fights BTW) and I've always been a better man for it. Woof, Crafty Dog Guiding Force of the Dog Brothers ------------------------------ From: Nolan Hernandez Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:01:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #516 Sid, Thanks for the movie suggestion. I'll check it out the next time I'm at Blockbuster. Nolan > From: Sidney525@aol.com > Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:03:07 EST > Subject: eskrima: FMA in the movies > > For FMA in the movies, check out Hawk's Vengence > with Cass Magda. It has > some of the best FMA stuff I have seen in the > movies. I got my copy from > Blockbusters so it shouldn't be that hard to find. > There is even a little > silat in it. > > Sid Stein > FKEAC > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Nolan Hernandez Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:23:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #516 Steve, I appreciate your input on Jeff Speakman's stickfighting style. I kinda figured that he may have learned some kali then later incorporated into his Kenpo. Creating a functional system that works for him. More success to him. Nolan From: "steve reiter" Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 22:15:44 -0800 Subject: eskrima: various to Nolan Hernandez - Jeff Speakman was taught some kali by a student (instructor) of guro dans (i believe he's in texas) - jeff took what he learnt and incorporated it into his art (kenpo) - and now it's "kenpo" sticks - nothing new - i think many arts/people see something that works and incorporate it and make it their own - only jeff never gave credit where it was due - and supposedly the instructor got real pissed - as far as other films go - there's tons of them - Jeff Amada is one of the top stunt coordinator's in the business - he is also one of only two senior instructor under guro dan - the other senior instructor is a stunt man - so the art works it's way into most fight scene's choreographed by jeff/damon steve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "steve reiter" Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:34:11 -0800 Subject: eskrima: best knife fighters Question to the digest: - who would you consider the best knife fighter(s) the the U.S. In the world? - please provide as much info on the person as you can - eg. the guy who wrote the san quentin knife fighters handbook (I think thats the name of the book) - ect. Master Chis Sayoc -posed the question to me - I only knew of a few, who are considered great knife fighters - wonder what everyone else thinks - doesnt have to be any particular art - or style - or not even MA. - and please limit the answer to knife fighting only - great stick work dont count. thanx steve ------------------------------ From: "Todd Ellner" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 03:29:24 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: The footwork thing I've been following the footwork discussion and have finally had to toss in my two cents: o A lot of people here have a very limited idea of footwork. There's a lot more to it than jumping in, hitting, and jumping out. That's for point-sparring or Olympic TKD which is a specialized game with very particular constraints. Take a look at good boxers for instance. Footwork gets you your range, denies the other guy his, angles you so that you can hit without being hit, keeps you mobile so you don't have to eat as many punches and a lot more. Wrestlers spend a fair amount of time getting the right distance and angle on their opponents so that when they close it will be on their terms. Footwork revolutionized swordplay in Europe and Japan. I won't even go into how important it is in, say, the IMA. o Standing toe-to-toe and trading blows is fine when you are bigger, stronger, faster, and can take more damage than the other guy. It's a great way to get beaten to death if you aren't. Do I really have to go into this one in detail? "It should be intuitively obvious to even the most casual observer" as my Measure Theory professor used to say. o Even standing close and duking it out works better if you use your legs correctly. If you can position yourself so that you arrive with everything at once in a position where you can hurt him but he can't hurt you you're much better off. See above for further comments. o Footwork is essential in multiple attacker confrontations unless you want to get surrounded, dragged down, and have a mudhole stomped in you. "I will fight the first guy. Then I will fight the second guy. Then I will fight the third guy," is a wonderful way to die somewhere in step one. The folks who are good at this stuff push footwork and control like they were the Sacred Blood of Jesus. Use some as shields against the others. Move through when they are far apart. Move around when they are close together. Use your feet so that you don't present a stationary target. Turn so that the blows you can't see don't hit you squarely. And so on. o The toe-to-toe thing gets old real fast if sharp things or things that go "bang" are involved. I'm not sure who said that he would stand right up there and trade blows if there were swords or knives involved. He'd better have a chainmail jockstrap and fully paid life insurance premiums. Look at how people fight with swords. Outside of testosterone-fests like the German student duels they got the heck out of the way whenever possible while controlling distance, angle and all the rest. As I said above, developments in footwork were central to the evolution of the bladed fighting styles of Europe and Japan among other places. It wasn't just so that the masters would look pretty for the ladies. If anyone can't understand the disadvantages of standing in front of a guy with a gun and trading punches in manly fashion I don't know what to say. Send the nice people at Second Chance a lot of money. Get right with the Lord. Make sure your widow is well provided for. And don't worry about having a full bar tab. It won't be a problem *-) [Shaking his head] Todd ------------------------------ From: "Todd Ellner" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 04:19:15 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Periodic announcement: SDFW mailing list Those interested in discussions about Women's Self Defense and the issues surrounding it are invited to check out the SDFW [Self Defense For Women] mailing list. The discussions are wide-ranging and generally civil. In the recent past they've included everything from how to get students through the "freeze" response to confronting verbal harassers. To subscribe send mail to SDFW-subscribe@onelist.com Regards, Todd ------------------------------ From: brosterj@qesmansfield.schoolzone.co.uk Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:32:54 -0000 Subject: eskrima: steve reiter I along with others have been reading the toing and froing of messers reiter, solis and denny over the last few days. i feel that it seems to have run its course and now every one is friends again, but could someone please post some info about who is who on the dog bros tapes so that the rest of us can identify the protagonists and make our own minds up? and please can mr reiter learn to spell? mabuhay jon ------------------------------ From: Jonas Dyhrfjeld-Johnsen Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:35:05 +0100 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #516 M. Gardner wrote: > During a conflict there are 3 battlegrounds that I can identify: > > 1) Psychological (emotional state, can also be called "spiritual") > 2) Mental (as in mental resources, awareness, knowledge, etc) > 3) Physical (can vary from simple body language or repositioning to > grappling/striking) > > Now I know that these three battlegrounds often overlap... body language and > voice inflection can play a big part in the psychological game, knowledge can > directly relate to the effectiveness of a physical strike, etc. I would be reluctant to split up number 1 & 2 as their substrate is in fact the same, - the central nervous system. Furthermore you cannot split it functionally either, as for example the emotional state will influence all other mental capabilities through neuromodulation. Jonas - ------------------------------------------------------------- Jonas Dyhrfjeld-Johnsen (Ms.sc.Biophysics & Bs.sc.Physics) Graduate student in the Computational Systems Neuroscience Group at the C. & O. Vogt Brain Research Institute in Duesseldorf, Germany. (office phone +49-211-81-12095) ** What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger ! ** - ------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 07:52:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #518 **************************************** To unsubscribe from this digest, eskrima-digest, send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in directory pub/eskrima/digests. 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